Diketones-free vendors
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What bothers me is that ECF has thousands of members and people visiting every day; even more people buy and inhale e-liquids daily.If we could act collectively (like in several cases regarding laws against vaping) and demand that diketones (which are scientifically proven to be dangerous when inhaled) are not included in e-liquids then the makers will follow.I truly believe that we have as a group more power than any FDA and we can establish some regulations on a product we consume.How? A simple solution is boycotting the makers that use diketones. And even before that boycott the makers that don't mention their ingredients on the bottle. Too expensive for some makers? Either find a way to deal with it or else stop producing something that you cannot support it. When dealing with chemicals destined for inhalation you need to have a professional in your team who knows what he is dealing with.How many producers have one? Few. They only know what flavor a chemical can resemble and besides that noting...nothing.
Can't people see the similarity with cigarettes where the packet only mentions nicotine,carbon monoxide and tar (like in e-liquids with PG,VG,nicotine)? Where are all the other ingredients? And don't tell me that they don't want to give away their secret recipes.What do you mean flavoring?Write it on the bottle.You don't? Ok,I don't buy from you. We are so against smoking, we spend hours talking about the devices we use, the coil building, batteries etc. and when it comes to e-liquid we only care (the majority I mean) for their taste.Exactly the same that the average smoker does; he cares for the satisfaction and not for the content.
And why should we only focus on the fact that vaping is safer than smoking and not on the fact that as consumers we demand to know what we inhale? You don't care about health issues? Then care for respect and responsibility by the producer towards the customers, aka US.
Anyhow, just some thoughts.
Can't people see the similarity with cigarettes where the packet only mentions nicotine,carbon monoxide and tar (like in e-liquids with PG,VG,nicotine)? Where are all the other ingredients? And don't tell me that they don't want to give away their secret recipes.What do you mean flavoring?Write it on the bottle.You don't? Ok,I don't buy from you. We are so against smoking, we spend hours talking about the devices we use, the coil building, batteries etc. and when it comes to e-liquid we only care (the majority I mean) for their taste.Exactly the same that the average smoker does; he cares for the satisfaction and not for the content.
And why should we only focus on the fact that vaping is safer than smoking and not on the fact that as consumers we demand to know what we inhale? You don't care about health issues? Then care for respect and responsibility by the producer towards the customers, aka US.
Anyhow, just some thoughts.
I agree. But if their juice isn't tested, we won't know, so we can boycott it. It would be great to have independent labs test for this. I don't want FDA regulation in any form.
I did not know Mother's Milk had diketones in it. Do they still contain it?
I did not know Mother's Milk had diketones in it. Do they still contain it?
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How about starting with something easier; boycotting vendors that don't mention on the liquid bottle the ingredients used in their flavorings?
I just realized I wrote there, and not their...sorry about that. I edited that post.
As far as an ingredient list, I am fine if they don't mention which flavors they add. I know they want to keep their ingredients a secret. Flavors, fine. Chemicals, NO. They should be testing from their suppliers. Anything out of the ordinary though should be listed. (or at least visit their website to get more details on this) I would love for a group to send in donations to a few independent labs, to do the testing for us, that have no pressure from anyone. I don't know which group that might be. CASAA handles the legal aspect of vaping. But I don't know who is interested in this, as a group. It would have to have input from a lot of people though, in order for it to work. Maybe someone with a chemistry background could offer suggestions on this.
As far as an ingredient list, I am fine if they don't mention which flavors they add. I know they want to keep their ingredients a secret. Flavors, fine. Chemicals, NO. They should be testing from their suppliers. Anything out of the ordinary though should be listed. (or at least visit their website to get more details on this) I would love for a group to send in donations to a few independent labs, to do the testing for us, that have no pressure from anyone. I don't know which group that might be. CASAA handles the legal aspect of vaping. But I don't know who is interested in this, as a group. It would have to have input from a lot of people though, in order for it to work. Maybe someone with a chemistry background could offer suggestions on this.
Honestly, 90 % of vapors just don't care ! This is a good thread for the other 10 %. Compiling a list of vendors that test their product and post the result, is a solid step to aide those who care. Boycott ? No chance !
NOT true. Have you looked at the surveys? People just want it disclosed on the label or on the web site.
If people did not want to vape diketones, then one of the most popular eliquid companies on the forum (and whose maker is totally honest about almost all of them containing diketones) wouldn't exist.
The truth is, vapers want juices that have that *diketone* taste.
Whatcha gonna do?
But yes, if you are someone who doesn't want to vape that (and I don't) then you have to see a test. Dr. F. said that in his study, no test, no proof.
No, they don't.
Here is their mission statement:
CASAA Mission Statement
They are an advocacy group, not an legal team.
I read Dr. F's posts as well as Kurt's posts (chemist) (all the way back to 2011) when all this was first known. There are quite a number of posts going back several years in the DIY section as well. This isn't really a "new" issue.
Diketones being an avoidable inhalation risk has been suspected for quite some time, which is probably why Dr. F. decided to test for it.
The only thing I can suggest is to read them and then decide for yourself if you want to vape diketones or not.
For myself, I don't want to control what other people vape. However, you have some good ideas and one of mine was to get together with folks who may vape the same all day vape as yourself, chip in, and have the juice tested. Of course, it would have to be sent directly from teh supplier.....not from a vaper, unless it was heat shrink wrapped, etc. You would probably have to get permission from teh supplier to send it to the lab.......otherwise, somebody could say you opened it
At any rate, all I want to know is what is in my eliquid, and then I can buy some.
Yeah, even Dr. F. took some "flak" from the vaping community a bit when the study came out, remember some of the comments?
Hey, I like that......we can be the 10-percenters.
Alas, I think it's more like 2% though.
Forgive my cynicism, but I've gone thru this for decades with the horse racing industry. The jockey club is supposed to watch over the industry, wink, wink, but it has taken decades to get them to release veterinary records on the horses people are spending wagering money on, and they also know and knew the huge number of injured and "shot up with meds to keep them racing" horses that would disappear on the backside, in the middle of the night, going off to some rescue group (that didn't exist) and later found at feedlots waiting for the slaugherhouse. (these are horses people actually made thousands of dollars on when they were racing.)
There is more but I won't go into it.
Yeah, I've heard it all before and then we had the mortgage industry fiasco.........look, I've just seen too much proof that industries aren't REAL GOOD *self-regulating*. They esp. can't do it well when millons and billions of $$$ are at stake.
I'd like to think it will be different this time........but I'm old enough to know better.
Thanks. I missed their mission statement. I am on their list though. I thought they were just mainly together to warn people, and keep them updated on legislation, aka the legal side of vaping. I am completely against taxing and regulation. It is not a cigarette. It is vapor. These politicians love taxes. They even want to tax the freaking internet, and the air you exhale. If you let them get a toe in the door, it is all over with. The frog in the cooking pot is how it would work out, in my opinion. Diketones however is something that frankly I am surprised people do not care about. I am so tired of people who have the mindset government should be in every nook and cranny of our lives. It is hard enough to make ends meet as it is. Adding more expense with taxes and regulation is going to hurt average people. It will also put people out of work, and close small business down. This industry is thriving. Add a bunch of rules, and you will see innovation crushed.
As far as self regulating, if they lost business because people refuse to buy juice with diketones, that might make some drop it as an ingredient. I for one would prefer to buy from a place that has their juice tested independently. I haven't known about this very long, because I am new to vaping.
As far as self regulating, if they lost business because people refuse to buy juice with diketones, that might make some drop it as an ingredient. I for one would prefer to buy from a place that has their juice tested independently. I haven't known about this very long, because I am new to vaping.
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i emailed vape wild and they said none of thier juices contain diacetyl or acetyl but no lab reports so make of that what you wil
Most people don't give a flying ....... if they did this issue would be pressed extremely hard, clearly the addiction/pleasure aspect for the majority is more important than potential health risks that can be avoidable.
How do you know that the owner you refer to is totally honest about the content of his e-liquids?Has he published any test results? The guy you refer to chose to use diketones in his e-liquid.Substances he knows are harmful when inhaled.Because of these two reasons honest would not be the word I would use to refer to him.
I read in several posts that people refer to e-liquid producers as diacetyl-free;and when you ask how do they know that they reply ...because the owner said so (as if the owner is someone they know personally so they take his word for granted)!!!!!Moreover, when you ask such a maker how does he know his liquids are diketones-free he replies....the flavor supplier told him so.A whole market of a product directed for inhalation is based on what anyone says without the slightest proof.
The vast majority of e-liquid producers are in the game for the money (like in all markets) )and we behave as if they give it away for free or as thoroughly tested.From the moment we pay for something, and especially for something that we inhale, we should be more demanding.
Just to put this into perspective. Publishing ONE test result does not make a conclusive argument. That is referred in the chemical industry and research community as cherry picking. In other words I could run 100 tests on a sample and publish the one that makes me happy. Now peer review is supposed to ferret out such nonsense but that isn't applicable here so you are really taking the word of someone when you say "they published results!" because as it is noted by the flavoring companies one batch can vary to another. Meaning something that might contain trace levels could contain way too much in the next batch. Believe me it is not uncommon to see this. Talk to anyone in the batch making industry and you can confirm this quirk. So what you are really looking at is a situation where EVERY batch needs independent testing AKA a huge uptick in the prices we pay and a lot of recipes that you guys like going away. I'm not advocating against testing. I'm just pointing out a little bit of reality to the situation. It is not a simple industry adjustment and there isn't magical piles of cash to make this happen overnight. I firmly believe it is where the industry is headed but there will be a due process. Just two cents from your neighborhood chemist.
I do not see a problem with EVERY batch of flavors being tested for known dangerous ingredients by the flavor manufacturers. This is where the contamination happens and is where it is the easiest to eradicate diketones and other poisons from our e-liquids.
The cost would not be high for the test, a few hundred $ per batch. The e-liquid vendors would then have lab certified flavors when mixing their e-liquids. The cost would be ultimately passed on to the consumers. It would be a few cents/ml and imo the great majority of vapers would gladly pay for it.
This has already started with some flavoring co. and I would bet that before long this will become the modus operandi of the flavoring industry if they wand the e-cig business.
The cost would not be high for the test, a few hundred $ per batch. The e-liquid vendors would then have lab certified flavors when mixing their e-liquids. The cost would be ultimately passed on to the consumers. It would be a few cents/ml and imo the great majority of vapers would gladly pay for it.
This has already started with some flavoring co. and I would bet that before long this will become the modus operandi of the flavoring industry if they wand the e-cig business.
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Between no testing at all and testing with a conclusive argument there is a huge gap;but that doesn't mean either the one or the other or nothing.When someone says diketones-free and diketones are found then it's up to the buyer to act however he likes.
Let's say that the maximum proportion of diketones is 4ppm (or let's say that below 4ppm is untraceable). Then if you have 400ppm in the liquid no matter the result, there will be no test indicating no diketones at all. The first step should be to start some form of testing and in the long run we can discuss how to make testing optimum.
Exactly, the flavor manufacturers are the ones to test their products. Most of these companies are established for well over 30 years. They can afford to test their batches and pass the cost along as you pointed out. Not to mention as has already been pointed out, it is in their interest to have a clean safe product. But you wouldn't walk into a 7/11 and demand a certificate of analysis on their bottled water. That's avion's problem not the franchise store owner. Same way you can't expect a vendor to certify a product that is passed down the line from a company that they cannot hold any sway over. To reiterate the Flavoring company is responsible for providing a safe product not the vendor. If you want to get technical about who holds blame then you are welcome to do so but in the end vendors are pretty much at the whim of the larger flavoring companies who have much larger resources.
Been looking at MOV, but two of the flavors that I'm most interested in, particularly Southern Gentleman, are not offered in an 1.2 nic. It goes from 1.8 to .9. Others are in 1.2, so I don't know if it's per flavor or they are just out of 1.2 nic for the ones I might like. No real sampler pack either.
I got a sampler from Mr. Eliquid, which is on the AEMSA web site, and hope they will work out, but they don't have a cert.
My go to up until now, Johnson's Creek - doesn't say anything about any of it, plus it's an atty clogger.
I got a sampler from Mr. Eliquid, which is on the AEMSA web site, and hope they will work out, but they don't have a cert.
My go to up until now, Johnson's Creek - doesn't say anything about any of it, plus it's an atty clogger.
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