There have been some threads on the DIY sub-forum dealing with this. DIY'ers seem to care a lot more about the issue.
Diketones-free vendors
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There have been some threads on the DIY sub-forum dealing with this. DIY'ers seem to care a lot more about the issue.
Here is a link of one thread here on ecf. Much information concerning diketones free flavors and vendors is available. Do not hesitate to ask questions they are very helpful.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-flavoring-manufacturers-open-discussion.html
Good luck
Just as an update from my poking around about what's been posted, and to offer some information:
Summary for Juice Mafia:
Not all juices have reports. PG/VG ratio varies, with some having up to 100% VG. As to the juices with reports published, each juice page with a report will have a "Click here to see report" link. That makes a custom Google search quite handy.
NicVape:
NicVape doesn't publish reports in advance, but each bottle arrives with a Lot Number, which can then be checked online to see the actual report. Not sure I'm sold on that, but to each his/her own. At any rate, most of their juices are a 50/50 blend, though they do have a Wild Side line that's a 30 PG / 70 VG ratio.
Vapor Bar:
Vapor Bar published a big report on all of their juices, and identified what's diketone free and what isn't. However, that test is over six months old. Most of their juice is in a 50/50 blend, though their Forbidden Custard line is in a 40 PG / 60 VG blend.
The Clean Vape:
So far, Clean Vape has only posted results on two of their juices. I'll try reaching out to see if they additional testing planned. At any rate, they offer a 30 PG / 70 VG for their juices.
Mountain Oak Vapors:
Mountain Oak offers test results for each juice, which will be a link on the individual juice page. Some are broken links, sadly enough, but their diligent efforts in this regard leave me pretty comfortable with the links (they just need to work out some kinks in their system, IMO). At any rate, most of MOV is a 50/50 blend, though they do have an Enthusiast Series with higher VG (their Chai Tea Latte, for example, states "at least 70% VG").
I personally want to make an effort to buy diketone-free, but I also want it in a high VG. I figured since I was doing the research and poking around, I'd summarize all of that for anyone else interested. Cheers.
Summary for Juice Mafia:
Not all juices have reports. PG/VG ratio varies, with some having up to 100% VG. As to the juices with reports published, each juice page with a report will have a "Click here to see report" link. That makes a custom Google search quite handy.
NicVape:
NicVape doesn't publish reports in advance, but each bottle arrives with a Lot Number, which can then be checked online to see the actual report. Not sure I'm sold on that, but to each his/her own. At any rate, most of their juices are a 50/50 blend, though they do have a Wild Side line that's a 30 PG / 70 VG ratio.
Vapor Bar:
Vapor Bar published a big report on all of their juices, and identified what's diketone free and what isn't. However, that test is over six months old. Most of their juice is in a 50/50 blend, though their Forbidden Custard line is in a 40 PG / 60 VG blend.
The Clean Vape:
So far, Clean Vape has only posted results on two of their juices. I'll try reaching out to see if they additional testing planned. At any rate, they offer a 30 PG / 70 VG for their juices.
Mountain Oak Vapors:
Mountain Oak offers test results for each juice, which will be a link on the individual juice page. Some are broken links, sadly enough, but their diligent efforts in this regard leave me pretty comfortable with the links (they just need to work out some kinks in their system, IMO). At any rate, most of MOV is a 50/50 blend, though they do have an Enthusiast Series with higher VG (their Chai Tea Latte, for example, states "at least 70% VG").
I personally want to make an effort to buy diketone-free, but I also want it in a high VG. I figured since I was doing the research and poking around, I'd summarize all of that for anyone else interested. Cheers.
Hi all
First started vaping in 2008, and have now been exclusively vaping for 3 years. I've gotten comfortable with my juices/set up, so I don't come on here as much as I used to. I'm glad I did though! Please forgive my ignorance but are diketones and diacetyl the same thing? Would one PURPOSELY put this in our juices, or is it an unintended result?
I am with you and would like to know exactly what I'm vaping. IMO, if a company says "yes it's been tested but we don't have the cert" - that's a bunch of bs. All companies know it would be in their best interest to have and post the cert, so if they are not willing to produce the cert........
First started vaping in 2008, and have now been exclusively vaping for 3 years. I've gotten comfortable with my juices/set up, so I don't come on here as much as I used to. I'm glad I did though! Please forgive my ignorance but are diketones and diacetyl the same thing? Would one PURPOSELY put this in our juices, or is it an unintended result?
I am with you and would like to know exactly what I'm vaping. IMO, if a company says "yes it's been tested but we don't have the cert" - that's a bunch of bs. All companies know it would be in their best interest to have and post the cert, so if they are not willing to produce the cert........
Diacetyl is a diketone.Once the issues with inhaling diacetyl became known, flavor manufacturers started replacing it with acetyl propyniol, another diketone which is almost identical to diacetyl in molecular structure and with the same potential harm. It's most commonly found in custard flavors and some creams, butterscotch, vanillas, caramel and generally sweet desserty stuff. The vendors don't " purposely " add it to the juice, but the food flavoring manufacturers do " purposely " add it. Problem is these flavors were not developed for the vaping industry and some compounds which are considered generally safe for digestion, are not necessarily safe for inhalation.
Hope this helps a little. Lots of threads on this topic in the past two or three years if you do a search.
Exactly. I can't comprehend doing the testing and not posting the results. Unless, of course, customers wouldn't like the results.
Many high volume vendors still go about their business as if nothing is wrong with their e-liquids. The way customer awareness of the high risks of diketones is progressing I hope this will change soon.
What we really need is some flavor manufacturers dedicated ONLY to ecig users. This is becoming a very large market. Does anybody know of any ?
What we really need is some flavor manufacturers dedicated ONLY to ecig users. This is becoming a very large market. Does anybody know of any ?
The flavor manufacturers that vendors buy from in this industry are not root manufacturers, but compounders really. Here is a post from the owner of NicVape in a different forum :
" Yes the vaping industry needs its own supply chain where the engineering starts with vaping/inhalation as the goal not ingestion. There are several issues that make this a long term challenge.
1 - cost - root manufacturing is very expensive - it is assembling compounds/ molecules at the molecular level - the equipment involved is in the millions of $ for a small lab. Large labs can not combine food and inhalation labs so even the bigger ones means a large investment to do it.
2 - experience - A root manufacturer employees master certified flavorist - to be a flavorist one goes to school for nearly 10 years and then has 5+ years as an apprentice before becoming a Flavorist. At NicVape we work with 2 master flavorists to design our flavor concentrates. NOTE - Max from Flavor Art (owner) is a master flavorist.
3 - insurance/ liability - of the top 10 root manufactures in the world only 1 creates flavors for inhalation. The reason is that their industry as a whole abandoned the cigarette industry years ago and the insurance requirements for them to do it are very burdensome. Mid size and small root flavor manufacturers have filled this hole as providers. Over the last year we have seen several of these providers stop selling to the industry because of insurance issues. "
And this from AEMSA :
"The e-liquid flavor supply chain is complex. Most U.S. e-liquid manufactures buy flavors components from the same, industry standard 10 companies (“End Flavor Suppliers”). But there are various companies within the supply chain moving flavor products (e.g., wholesaler to wholesaler) between the source manufacturer and the End Flavor Supplier. Some of these companies may be “compounders” who combine flavors, after source manufacture, to create new or combined/compounded flavors. When an End Flavor Supplier claims that its products are diacetyl- and/or acetyl propionyl-“free,” they may be relying on claims from the source manufacturer, and may not be aware of possible mid-supply-chain “compounding”.
All this leads me to believe that the only way to be certain, is to test the finished juice really. Even diy'ers can't be certain that the flavors they purchased that were advertised as diketone free, truly are.
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The post didn't specify. Wouldn't really matter to us anyway since the root manufacturers don't sell to us. They sell to the people who sell to companies like TFA, FA etc ...
It would be interesting to know. Being unique among competing companies is...unique.
I would guess that in most cases you would be correct, but not always. I have seen the test results on all the juices for one specific vendor ( all negative ) who for some reason chose not to post it on their site.
Well it's one of these : Anyone even heard of a single one of them ?
Flavor & Fragrance Industry - Top 10
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Their choice to do that, and I'm OK with playing it safe and not taking that risk. If they want my business that bad, they'll post it. If not, so be it.
Thank you Mazinny - this does help. And thank you all for the info in this thread.
Thank you for the summary, Demi.
So far, we have maybe 5 vendors then, who can provide proof (tests) of all or at least a few diacetyl free eliquid? Or less than 5?
Dr. F's study came out about May of 2014, citing diacetyl as an avoidable inhalation risk........so out of the thousands of eliquid companies out there, we presently have a vendor list of 5 as of almost March 2015.
People keep asking for a list and I guess this will have to serve as the official one so far?
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Thanks for your efforts on this front Racehorse.
It seems to be a rather indifferent attitude to many on ECF.
And if so HERE, then even more elsewhere.
I know I have basically bashed/harassed my (previously?) favorite juice vendor with little luck.
A dodge here, a feint there.
At least there is some good/great progress on the flavor vendor end.
One almost can't thank TFA and FA enough for the work.
As such, one might ASSUME that a caring juice vendor would be selective in their flavorings.
But that is one huge assumption and one that is probably silly to make.
Wish this issue would gain traction - at least site wide, to force a change with our $$.
DIY appears the safer route.
Hey, look, I don't care how other people vape, etc.
Everybody has their *thing*. ("get a Provari"
) I don't rebuild or stuff like that. I've read all the posts and watched all the vids though, because I find it interesting.
Everybody has that *thing* about which they feel passionately. Mine just happens to be diketone-free ejuice.
Just trying to keep the resources going for other vapers who may have similar tastes and/or goals. As has everyone who contributed to this topic so far.
yeah, they are awesome.
For the record, I am not in favor of regulation, at this time, as it is probably not necessary since obviously as consumers, we can find (a few) vendors and flavor manufacturers who are stepping up and providing the information we need. Wish there were more though. Kinda thought there would be after a year's time.
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