Diketones will destroy vaping before they destroys your lungs

[stevegmu]

Both surprised this type of comment hasn't gotten more attention and happy it didn't get any likes (at least until time I responded).

It really is a cornerstone for this argument that diketones will one day, inevitably, harm vapers. Cause otherwise, you'd have to reconcile the idea that smokers seemingly (and magically) slipped under the radar with diketones as notable cause for cigarette smoking harms, but was somehow easy to pinpoint as primary problem in vaping.

Thus, you get the notion that it is because vaping is different than smoking as to why it will noticeably affect vapers but didn't noticeably affect smokers.

Yet, then one MUST also consider the notion that we have no long term data on inhaling nicotine. None at all. Sure we have people that have inhaled nicotine for last hundred years or so (more like 3000+ years), but that cannot count under this notion that smoking and vaping are entirely different activities and impact the body in vastly different ways.

And so, it would make as much sense for some vapers (the fear mongerers) to suggest we get rid of this ingredient before it kills us, or at least recognize that it might be a reason that people (the regulators) go after vaping.

I wonder sometimes why the anti-diketone crowd is so inconsistent in their rhetoric.

I really don't think you understood what I wrote, but that seems to be a common issue with some who only seek to attack others...

 

[Lessifer]

I have no issues with people wanting information.
I have no issues with people sharing factual information.
I have no issues with people using information, factual or otherwise, to make their own decisions.

I have issues with people stating opinions as fact.
I have issues with people calling for mandates, based on speculation.

Yes, there is good reason to believe that diketones may cause health problems. However, there are only slightly less reasons to believe that any flavorings may cause health problems. That reason is they have not been studied in this application at all. So before we make any calls for industry wide anything, I want something more tangible.

I would love to know that whatever I'm inhaling isn't going to lead to future harm, but the truth is, even if I knew that none of my liquids didn't contain diketones, I still wouldn't know that. That is why these things need to continue to be studied.

 

[zoiDman]

...
It could start as clean but could get "potentially bad stuff" as it steeps.

Would it be Possible for you to Post some information as to How an e-Liquid can start out as "Clean" and then thru Steeping contain Potentially Bad Stuff?

And if this Can/Does occur, what type of ug/ml numbers are we Talking About?

 

[Lessifer]

Would it be Possible for you to Post some information as to How an e-Liquid can start out as "Clean" and then thru Steeping contain Potentially Bad Stuff?

And if this Can/Does occur, what type of ug/ml numbers are we Talking About?

I remember reading something about an e-liquid being mixed and having a level of D/AP that was under the threshold of measurement, and then after steeping, having a higher level. I'm not sure if that's true, or was just someone's excuse for unusually high test results.

 

[stevegmu]

Beer does that. As it ferments the levels of diacetyl can rise. Not sure how much e-liquid ferments, however...

 

[zoiDman]

...

Yes, there is good reason to believe that diketones may cause health problems. However, there are only slightly less reasons to believe that any flavorings may cause health problems. That reason is they have not been studied in this application at all. So before we make any calls for industry wide anything, I want something more tangible.

...

I thought NIOSH launch an Investigation into the Flavoring Industry in general? And didn't see the Types of Problems that Da and AP were causing in Employees of Companies where Da and AP was not Present.

Not saying thought that Other Flavoring can Not Cause Problems Similar or Independent of those connected to the Popcorn Workers.

 

[Mazinny]

Would it be Possible for you to Post some information as to How an e-Liquid can start out as "Clean" and then thru Steeping contain Potentially Bad Stuff?

And if this Can/Does occur, what type of ug/ml numbers are we Talking About?

I had a discussion with someone from Nicvape about this. They claimed that their studies showed that if there is some negligible amount though cross-contamination ( nd ) in e liquid, steeping could elevate the amounts some ( to a few micrograms perhaps ) but definitely not to the levels that are present in flavorings that have had diketones added to them deliberately.

 

[Jman8]

Diketones are in factory settings, cigarettes and consumer products, all of which have led to similar forms of lung damage in people sufficiently exposed to those things and environments. Diketones are also in e-juice. How long before vaping can be added to the above list of causes for damaging diketone exposure? If you don't see a link between diketones and lung damage, its because you don't want to see it.

Also, people working in coffee plants where they roast the coffee beans, they came down with lung damage issues as well. Noone knew why until they discovered that the heating of the beans released diacetyl. It seems anywhere diketones are encountered, lung damage soon follows.

Mostly responding to the part I emphasized with red text.

Wondering if @Moonbogg is aware of where diketones are present on this planet? Do you think it is a few places and just the ones so far noted in this thread? With just a quick google search, I think one realizes it is in many ways all around us, a lot of the time.

And you, along with the anti-diketone crowd, are persistently making the argument that inhaling it will automatically lead to lung damage. Not just some damage. And not just simple damage. But very serious, long term, irreversible damage.

Thus, if we go along with idea that diketones will always lead to lung damage, of the most serious kind, then understand where diketones are present on the planet, it would stand to reason that about 98% of the population ought to be showing up with this issue.

So, if you see a causal relationship between presence of diketones and serious lung damage, but are only able to back up your rhetoric with around .0003% of the population as being affected in a noticeable way, then it is quite likely you are taking a molehill and suggesting everyone look at the mountain that you feel is there in plain sight.

 

[Troll from behind]

I remember reading something about an e-liquid being mixed and having a level of D/AP that was under the threshold of measurement, and then after steeping, having a higher level. I'm not sure if that's true, or was just someone's excuse for unusually high test results.

Which was what I also read and came into conclusion that I can't be really sure.
That beign a opinion without facts to prove it is something I can't go preaching as a Truth but it does make ME think there are more "bad guys" other than those crusified now.
As I said, I would love to get this assumption either proven truth or false, happy with either result, but I do think it isn't going to happen.
Unlike sadly many in internet I don't mind beign proven wrong.


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[Lessifer]

I thought NIOSH launch an Investigation into the Flavoring Industry in general? And didn't see the Types of Problems that Da and AP were causing in Employees of Companies where Da and AP was not Present.

Not saying thought that Other Flavoring can Not Cause Problems Similar or Independent of those connected to the Popcorn Workers.

I don't remember the numbers, but the report identifies many that are at a similar level of concern as D/AP, and many more that are lower level concern but still of concern, and again none of them were studied for direct intentional inhalation. Also of note, I believe they were studied in their raw form, or as close to, in an industrial setting. More similar to our application, though not equivalent, would be the food industry workers using cooking sprays that contained diketones as part of the flavoring component.

 

[Lessifer]

Beer does that. As it ferments the levels of diacetyl can rise. Not sure how much e-liquid ferments, however...

I don't think anyone has truly identified what is happening in a bottle of e-liquid as it "steeps."

 

[zoiDman]

I remember reading something about an e-liquid being mixed and having a level of D/AP that was under the threshold of measurement, and then after steeping, having a higher level. I'm not sure if that's true, or was just someone's excuse for unusually high test results.

Yeah... I have Read some posts along those Lines in Defense of a Vendor who's own Lab Reports were Off the Charts High in AP.

But I put them down to this...

"I have issues with people stating opinions as fact."

... until I could see some Corroborating Data as to the Validity of all this.

 

[Lessifer]

Yeah... I have Read some posts along those Lines in Defense of a Vendor who's own Lab Reports were Off the Charts High in AP.

But I put them down to this...

"I have issues with people stating opinions as fact."

... until I could see some Corroborating Data as to the Validity of all this.

One of those current "unknowns" is what actually happens inside a bottle of e-liquid as it sits on a shelf. Is there a different reaction that occurs when a bottle is airtight as opposed to when there is some air in the bottle? There is obviously a reaction occurring in some e-liquids as they sit, over time. I am not convinced that it is truly just the flavorings "melding" better. There is some oxidation occurring, at least in some, and I don't know what that oxidation produces.

 

[Troll from behind]

"I have issues with people stating opinions as fact."

... until I could see some Corroborating Data as to the Validity of all this.

Which is why I wouldn't go telling it to someone like I said.
I wouldn't use words like "believe" or "assumption" in that case.
I'm terribly sorry if you got that assumption but english not beign my native language I may not be able to state my point correctly.


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[Sasha19_81]

Seriously, i still dont understand why do you care?? Unless your a vegan/macrobiotic athlete which carefully weighs his food intake, and masohisticly waches that its organic etc.etc. your gonna die from something entirely not conected to vaping. Be it overweight, diabetes, coronary disease, stress related hart attacks, up to traffic acidenta, playing golf and falling in the lake on hole 14 and drowning.. something else is gonna kill you.. if you manage to dodge all the bullets up to 75 years old, and tou die from diketone lung damage.. well be happy.. you lived 75. The life expectancy in 1915 was 46 years.. your unbelivable, all of you.. read the newspapers..

15year olds get lung cancer, and 80year olds get a lung transplant..

20year olds die in car accidents each day
90year olds go to space.

30year olds struggle to pay daily bills
100year olds finally died..

Why do hell do you want to spend this litle time we have on this planet worying about something thats maybe gona kill you in maybe 20 years, which is maybe in some liquids, of which you vape.
Seriously??

.... it.

L.N. 2008. - Live long and prosper. Or dont, what do i care..

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[stevegmu]

Most do come with a best used by date. I have had e-liquid lose flavor over time after it has been opened...

 

[Jman8]

From a report on that poor lady, who you seem to disregard because it was "just one" coffee factory:

“Especially of note is the short employment tenure of affected workers and their apparent rapid decline in lung function. Although these patients were symptomatic within <18 months of work, their illness initially was unrecognized, leading to a diagnostic delay of 8–14 months. This is consistent with the natural history of obliterative bronchiolitis, which differs significantly from much chronic obstructive lung disease, where decline is slow and risk factors more apparent.”

Damage from diketones appears to be a silent phenomenon, and then once you start to finally notice the symptoms, its far too late. People claim that no vapers have been harmed. If I were as unreasonable as them, I'd ask them for "proof" of that, just as they demand absolute proof from me that diketones are dangerous while vaping. There is ample proof that diketones are dangerous, period. Let people sub ohm diketones for a few more years. Maybe they will get their proof.

I know @VNeil makes this point routinely, but as you've quoted it, it makes sense to bring it up again. The part in quotes is saying, a consistent finding with OB is that it is (always) symptomatic in less than a year and a half.

Yet, the anti-diketone crowd would suggest we don't have the data today that we need because it could take as long as 30 years to determine the potential of this problem. Ya know, playing the ANTZ "we just don't know" card along with the "need long term data" card. It seems to work in a quasi rational way for this ongoing debate, but is incredibly tough to reconcile with this fact that BO is consistently symptomatic in less than 18 months.

Thus, we currently live in a vaping reality where if this is plausible issue, there ought to be plenty of vapers that have BO present in their physiology based on the historical findings of BO symptoms.

That we do not, and that some would still argue for "need more long term data" suggests they don't understand this issue of which they prattle on about.

Again, the quoted part above is saying there is rapid decline in lung function with OB, unlike other chronic lung diseases where decline is slow. Please link to any of the known cases of OB in vapers, for surely we are living in a time period where the data ought to be present if we are sticking to this issue being a certain, albeit potential, problem.

 

[YoursTruli]

Seriously, i still dont understand why do you care?? Unless your a vegan/macrobiotic athlete which carefully weighs his food intake, and masohisticly waches that its organic etc.etc. your gonna die from something entirely not conected to vaping. Be it overweight, diabetes, coronary disease, stress related hart attacks, up to traffic acidenta, playing golf and falling in the lake on hole 14 and drowning.. something else is gonna kill you.. if you manage to dodge all the bullets up to 75 years old, and tou die from diketone lung damage.. well be happy.. you lived 75. The life expectancy in 1915 was 46 years.. your unbelivable, all of you.. read the newspapers..

15year olds get lung cancer, and 80year olds get a lung transplant..

20year olds die in car accidents each day
90year olds go to space.

30year olds struggle to pay daily bills
100year olds finally died..

Why do hell do you want to spend this litle time we have on this planet worying about something thats maybe gona kill you in maybe 20 years, which is maybe in some liquids, of which you vape.
Seriously??

.... it.

L.N. 2008. - Live long and prosper. Or dont, what do i care..

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

If you have ever truly experienced not being able to breathe or having to work for every breath you take or ever even seen anyone struggling with lung disease/damage you would not say this, you would care and take what ever steps possible to minimize this from ever happening to you.

 

[Jman8]

I believe on average each cigarette has 285 ug of diacetyl and43 ug of AP. You can multiply by the number of cigarettes you used to smoke and compare with the amounts in a 1ml of liquid multiplied by the number of mls you vape per day.

So a PAD smoker was/is getting 5700 ug of DA daily and 860 ug of AP.

And we are saying this is stuff to be ultra concerned about, because surely everyone that inhales these compounds will have serious lung issues, of the irreversible kind.

Would be one thing if the PAD smoker smoked for all of 1 day and had that type of exposure. But one would think smokers have arguably been more exposed to inhaling DA / AP than any other person on the planet in human history.

(Insert anti-diketone argument here of - all smokers do have it but it has been misdiagnosed and/or it didn't quite reach its full potential. Hope no one sees the flaws in this argument. Stick to it until the cows come home.)

 

[Sasha19_81]

@YoursTruli
And this tells me you didnt read the whole thread.. goto page 22-23 and read..

Edited, im sorry page 28. Where it says i lost half a fricking lung.
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