It's odd people don't understand they won't just die and that's it. Often years of agony preface death. As I have said, many just don't care about their health...
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Need help from former MFS (MyFreedomSmokes) customers
Has any found a supplier or company that has tobacco e-juice like or very similar to MFS Turbosmog, Tall Paul, or Red Luck?
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Diketones will destroy vaping before they destroys your lungs
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It's odd people don't understand they won't just die and that's it. Often years of agony preface death. As I have said, many just don't care about their health...
If we are Talking a Few Micrograms than it Isn't very Meaningful.
I would Love to see these Studies. If you happen to come across them Again, Please do Post them.
You keep hitting everyone with the ANTZ rhetoric thing over and over again. But it's really gotten me thinking about how we discuss this issue. Okay, the Anti Smoking Zealots are running around telling anyone who will listen that vaping is bad and needs to be stopped. If there are enough of them for you to be saying that constantly then the next question would be who are they talking to? I would assume policy makers and anyone else high up on the food chain. So that would mean that diketones are a weapon being used against vaping. Then the question is do we need diketones badly enough to make ourselves an easy target?
No Worries. I think you have done a Good Job of Expressing your thoughts.
And I think your English is Fine.
I often think if we were to remove the ANTZ word from all responses there would not be much of an argument here
Oh, people don't want to know any number of things. Once you know, then you have to deal with it.
I've known people who were passing blood when they went to the bathroom, but wouldn't go to the doctor because they didn't want to KNOW they had cancer. Of course, sadly, it might have been treatable had they gone in quickly instead of pretending it wasn't happening for 6 months.
You could extend that argument to almost anything about vaping. Do we NEED flavors enough to make ourselves a target? Do we need "higher" mg liquid? Do we need open containers?
I believe jman's point is, what level of conclusiveness should we adhere to in order to decide that something should be removed from vaping? Obviously this issue hasn't hit that level for some of us.
Yes... It is hard to say what is Happening Inside a Bottle when there So Many Different Flavorings composed of a Multitude of Chemicals going into it.
But one thing that is Not So Difficult is to Test the Components that go into a Mix for Da and AP, and then Test the Mix of these Components after they have been Mixed and then Sat for 1 or 5 or 30 Days of "Steeping".
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THE SKY IS FALLING...AGAIN....THE SKY IS FALLING...AGAIN!!!!
It's plausible that because of this thread, a person might stop vaping diketones, trusting both their (other) vendors to be free of it and that science has nailed this down accurately.
Equally plausible that if the argument is that it is equal or worse to smoking (and inhaling) diketones, that smokers would not make the switch because part of what is clearly being implied is that this is as harmful as smoking. Vapers want to say (and has been said in this thread) that we know it is safer than smoking, when in reality, you do NOT know this if you are saying long term data is needed to make the reasonable determination. You might hope it is better and you might be accurate when that data comes in, but in reality of the argument that is before us, you do not know.
Imagine a smoker who learns that they've been inhaling these compounds at 2000 ug daily for decades were to also learn that vaping has it, and (AND) that it is plausibly worse for vaping. So, then why would a reasonable person, who is a smoker, make the switch if vapers are expressively concerned with this issue?
Methinks some vapers will continue to stretch the truth, aka lie, and tell smokers "we know" it is safer than smoking while also holding arguments with fellow vapers that say, this particular issue is far worse than smoking.
Hopeless people need an enemy, a wrecker, a boogeyman. Russia had the myth of the Benevolent Czar. Back in the day most people were led to believe the Czar was kind and benevolent and had the best interests of the people above all else. The reality is the Czar was the cause of many of the ills, but due to good PR campaigns, it was always others who were to blame for disease, starvation, wars. The people united against the mythical others,even pretender czars, while having full devotion to the Czar. A common enemy kept the people from rising up against the czar, fighting with each other and gave them a common purpose. It gave them hope. Their lives were so bleak they had nothing else.
The same carried over to Stalin's time. He had no idea what the people around him were doing, as 20 million were sent to their deaths at the gulags in the middle of the night. The nefarious wreckers were the ones why factories failed to meet production plans, why Ukrainians starved and why food and goods shortages were common. If only father Stalin knew what was going on he would save the day...
Playing the ANTZ card is just a Way of trying to tie someone with an Opposing view to a Group that we can All Hate. So as to Discredit the Opposing View as being part of "Them".
Kinda like what a Politian does when they Sling Mud at an Opponent and try to make them Look Bad. Instead of Telling us what they Will do and why we should perceive them as Good.
BTW - I'm sure I will be Called an ANTZ for Saying this.
LOL
I never saw the studies. I had a conversation with their representative, who told me about these "studies". The point that she was trying to make was that if there is "zero" diketones in a liquid, diketones will not appear through steeping. It may have been to promote their own flavor concentrates though, as they have been touting them as the " first flavor concentrates in the market designed specifically for vaping " whatever that means. Supposedly they have hired flavor chemists from root manufacturers ( not the compounders like TFA, Cappella etc ... that most vendors buy from ) to design flavors specifically for vaping. When i asked her what this means besides the absence of diketones, she stated that she doesn't know the specifics.
I don't often see anyone being called an ANTZ, though it does happen. What usually occurs is someone will point out that an ANTZ-like argument is being used. It's a shorthand for saying you are presenting speculation and/or bad science as FACT. Also happens when someone makes a "factual" statement, and is asked to present proof, and then the person responds with something other than proof. Appeals to emotion, rather than logic/reason/scientific data also fall under this.
For instance, stating the fact that irreversible lung damage is a horribly painful way to die, does not prove that diketones in e-liquid will lead to irreversible lung damage.
You would think that those specifics would be important, if they are the center of their marketing campaign.
There's the primary issue that we debate on this topic which is the health scare / concern. IMO, that's what this thread is mainly about, and is what is present in OP. From this position comes a key secondary issue in this ongoing debate which is (as noted in OP) that no vendor should be selling this, as it is an avoidable risk. This stems from the Dr. F. statement (of opinion).
The primary issue and the key secondary issue really ought to be scrutinized with as much gusto as all the other things that are thrown against the anti-vaping wall in hopes they stick and scare people away from the "dangerous" activity that vaping is believed to be.
Another secondary issue of great significance in this ongoing debate is whether vendors ought to be disclosing this information. Some anti-diketone types will claim "this is all we are after." I somewhat believe this, but mostly see it as moving the goalposts from what is the primary issue. I think these types have reconciled with themselves that it would be a very bad thing to suggest all vendors must be mandated to get rid of this compound, and so go with what they feel is politically correct position of disclosure.
The reason there is opposition to disclosure is really only based on scope of mandate/request. IOW, are you saying the political position for vaping community ought to be mandatory disclosure? Or are you saying you will personally only seek vendors in the current (under regulated) market who match up with your version of disclosure? If it is the latter, then I think those of us who show up as debating this issue with what appears to some as diketone denial, would not, even a little bit, resist that effort. Perhaps even engage in the same effort, as if we are not actually diketone deniers.
But if you are arguing for the former, and that it ought to be a mandate for all vendors to disclose, then you are arguing for what the FDA deeming was partially (to mostly) about. Difference for FDA is that while this is current pet issue within vaping community, FDA would just assume mandated disclosure on all ingredients, and that FDA take on responsibility of middle man. Thus, not that consumers would actually receive full disclosure (though they might if vendor wishes that), but FDA would receive full disclosure and then either allow it on market or reject the application (for possibly one or more of a million reasons).
The other significant aspect of disclosure is that it is entirely unlikely that vapers will all be on the same page with what that means. Let's say all of us discussed this and magically we were all on the same page for what disclosure means. I highly doubt that would occur, but let's just accept the hypothetical. Then let's say us 50 vapers on the same page encounter 250 vapers who say our version doesn't nearly go far enough and another 1000 vapers who say we are demanding way too much in terms of disclosure. Who's right in that situation?
FDA is going with as full of disclosure as humanly possible, on all things, and making it a mandate. I think a reasonable case can be made to say that is the safest path forward. I think the pro-vaping perspective assumes that to be a most foolish path going forward because a) it'll cost someone (likely consumers and industry) a lot of money to stay on the market and b) it might actually not lead to more safety. Especially considering that there are really no known incidents of serious harm to vapers from inhaling the ingredients. Which is why I long to wager with anyone who thinks we would be more safe under FDA final rule. The path that is intentionally aiming for across the board, full disclosure that is heavily mandated.
This is the Way I understand it.
I also have Never seen anything to say that Da or AP can Increase by any Meaningful amount thru Steeping for e-Liquids where Da and AP were known to be present from the Start.
Yeah to be sure. She was just a customer service rep though. Their owner ( Linc Williams, who by the way was an early e-cig advocate years ago before starting his company ) used to be active on Reddit when they were contemplating hiring flavor chemists from root manufacturers. I might try contacting him directly.
I agree.
Out of the 229,010 members on the ECF, I can only think of a Couple of people who do so on a Regular and Habitual level.
The Same Linc Williams who started the Famous "We Are Vapers" project?
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