Diketones will destroy vaping before they destroys your lungs

[Moonbogg]

The chemical I was refering to is Butyrate ethy, which is what I believe a substitute for DA/AP. You may be vaping it right now and don't know it. It's worse than diketones.

You know what I think is pretty sad, you are probably right, and I wouldn't argue with you about it. If it turned out that the stuff you mentioned is really nasty, the last thing I would do is give you resistance on the subject. We need to denounce the use of, and especially the commercial sale of any dangerous chemicals in e-liquids, or vaping will vanish faster than that huge cloud you just blew.

 

[stevegmu]

And yet, all will go to the grave. Some are looking for their greatest leisurely time when they are in their 70's. More power to them, but not all of us think living a long life on earth is all that it is cracked up to be, nor that it is best done by living a rather boring life before age 70.

Btw, my previous comment had literally zero to do with anything that is perceived as outside of yourself. Perhaps it is most people don't understand how health actually works... (though I like to think everyone knows, and pretends otherwise)

Hard to enjoy anything when one is no longer mobile the last 15 years of their life- whether it be due to obesity or lung damage. When I smoked as a teen I would always just say I didn't mind dying a few years early, until I realized some live the last 15 years of their lives in agony due to poor choices...

 

[Jman8]

That's not a fix. We already know vaping is safer than smoking, at least generally speaking. If the choice is between the two, then vaping is much better. However, if vaping 20mils of juice that contains 2000ppm of AP per day is your idea of a safer alternative, then you may well be mistaken, quite gravely in fact.

I have never come close to 20 ml in a day. Not even close to 10.

But if some to many juices contain this, as I think you stated earlier, and this is a huge problem, then you would be gravely mistaken that "we know vaping is safer than smoking." It's interesting that you want to have it both ways. Much safer than smoking, and smoking inhales great amounts of these compounds, daily. But far worse than smoking in some cases (due to flavors in eLiquid, which is around 92% of the total market).

So, explain to me why smoker who would be made fully aware of the fearful side of this issue would make the switch? You say it is safer than smoking, but you are saying vaping is much worse than smoking on this particular issue. Either you're stretching the truth on the safer than smoking claim or you perhaps don't understand the diketone issue, like you say you do.

 

[zoiDman]

FDA.gov - though pretty sure you knew this. Here is link that speaks to ingredients in products. This is the short version. I know you know the multi-paragraph / page version exists in the deeming proposal.

If this is what you are Talking about...

Requires Disclosure of Ingredients in Tobacco Products
Tobacco companies must provide FDA with detailed information about the ingredients in their products.

... then you might as well call me an ANTZ now. Because I don't have any problems with an OEM having to have to disclose to the FDA what they want to put into an e-liquid.

What I have a Problem with, if it goes like I believe it will, will be the Cost and Procedure of a OEM getting FDA Approval to be Allowed to include a Given Chemical.

BTW - You know all this is Da / AP Rhetoric is Kinda Silly. Because even you know that there Isn't a Hope in Hell that Da and or AP will be allowed in a Regulated Market.

 

[Jman8]

We need to denounce the use of, and especially the commercial sale of any dangerous chemicals in e-liquids, or vaping will vanish faster than that huge cloud you just blew.

Would this include nicotine? If not, why not?

 

[stevegmu]

Also, I have failed to take into account the physical condition of some of the diketone deniers. If I was kind of old and my body was already wrecked, then I might just say "screw it" as well and vape a bucket of diketones. Just saying. Im only 36 and in pretty good shape, so I don't want to go getting all diketoned out before my 40th birthday for crying out loud.

I think you nailed it right there. I'm 40, but in better shape than I was when I was 25. Coincidently I have a much younger GF to live for. I think some have just given up...

 

[Jman8]

Hard to enjoy anything when one is no longer mobile the last 15 years of their life- whether it be due to obesity or lung damage. When I smoked as a teen I would always just say I didn't mind dying a few years early, until I realized some live the last 15 years of their lives in agony due to poor choices...

And some smokers live to be 110 years of age.

Given what I was told about things I chose to do as a teen/young adult, making it this far in life has either completely blown those past memes out of the water, or I am a walking miracle.

Probably both.

 

[zoiDman]

I think you nailed it right there. I'm 40, but in better shape than I was when I was 25. Coincidently I have a much younger GF to live for. I think some have just given up...

Yeah... But I heard you were Kinda a Wimp when you were 25. So you only had one way to go. And that was Up.

 

[Pinggolfer]

However, if vaping 20mils of juice that contains 2000ppm of AP per day is your idea of a safer alternative, then you may well be mistaken, quite gravely in fact.

I'm a tootle puffer which is why I vape with Provaris. 20 watts max and I use 10-12 and vape about 5ml a day most days less. My juice doesn't contain 2000 ppm AP so I should live to fight another day.

 

[stevegmu]

Yeah... But I heard you were Kinda a Wimp when you were 25. So you only had one way to go. And that was Up.

I was still on a club rugby team, but I drank a lot...

 

[zoiDman]

And some smokers live to be 110 years of age.

Given what I was told about things I chose to do as a teen/young adult, making it this far in life has either completely blown those past memes out of the water, or I am a walking miracle.

Probably both.

Yeah... and my Roommate from College didn't make it to his 40th Birthday. Lung Cancer.

 

[zoiDman]

I was still on a club rugby team, but I drank a lot...

Can you be on a Rugby team and Not?

 

[stevegmu]

And some smokers live to be 110 years of age.

Given what I was told about things I chose to do as a teen/young adult, making it this far in life has either completely blown those past memes out of the water, or I am a walking miracle.

Probably both.

Everyone knows someone who has died old; as well as someone who has died well before their time...

 

[stevegmu]

Can you be on a Rugby team and Not?

No, especially when we played friendlies against women's teams from time to time. Those big hosses didn't play fair...

 

[Jman8]

If this is what you are Talking about...

Requires Disclosure of Ingredients in Tobacco Products
Tobacco companies must provide FDA with detailed information about the ingredients in their products.

... then you might as well call me an ANTZ now. Because I don't have any problems with an OEM having to have to disclose to the FDA what they want to put into an e-liquid.

What I have a Problem with, if it goes like I believe it will, will be the Cost and Procedure of a OEM getting FDA Approval to be Allowed to include a Given Chemical.

BTW - You know all this is Da / AP Rhetoric is Kinda Silly. Because even you know that there Isn't a Hope in Hell that Da and or AP will be allowed in a Regulated Market.

...like it is in smoking?

Um, I'm sure it'll be allowed and if anything just a requirement for some sort of warning, but how that warning looks remains to be seen as surely I wouldn't be the only one scrutinizing the fear mongering claims.

Why would you have a problem with cost for FDA approval if the primary concern is health? Are you saying profits/revenue ought to matter more than this sort of concern for this view of health? Some have argued "pennies for vendors." I'm sure BV and BT will have little issue with the deeming once its in place and they realize they are only people standing for long term vapers. Okay, they might have more than a little issue, but they'll survive and I think we all know that. I'm fairly certain even Bill G. knows this.

That would be the other point of resistance that some of us have in this ongoing debate, the cost factor. Some on the diketone-free side might claim it is only pennies or all they want is x and y tested / disclosed. But FDA isn't going by latest pet cause according to vapers. Even @Moonbogg is saying that if there are other diketone substitutes that are reason to be concerned, then that could lead to further issues. So, FDA feels need to be comprehensive. PG and VG are on table. Nicotine is on table. And flavorings are on table. All the compounds, and all the plausible uses for these are on the table. That's of course going to cost money to research, so that the illusion of safety can hopefully be attained. But this is what some vapers are ranting about right now.

So, you can say you hate FDA deeming, but when it is essentially saying, "we want to make sure products are safe" and "we really don't want minors to be using" and you have expressed yourself to be around 100% in agreement with those 2 positions, then excuse me if I don't believe you when you say you do not favor FDA deeming.

 

[puffon]

We need to denounce the use of, and especially the commercial sale of any dangerous chemicals in e-liquids, or vaping will vanish faster than that huge cloud you just blew.

What would you do, if someone told you vaping PG, VG, nic alone is bad for you?

 

[Moonbogg]

I'm a tootle puffer which is why I vape with Provaris. 20 watts max and I use 10-12 and vape about 5ml a day most days less. My juice doesn't contain 2000 ppm AP so I should live to fight another day.

I use a P3 as well and its set at 14.2 watts and that's perfectly fine with me. I guess what's good about vaping like you do is you would see the heavy vapers get sick first and that would be a kind of early warning for you, providing you with some time to react and stop vaping certain stuff. For them though, it would be too late.

Would this include nicotine? If not, why not?

Of course not. I won't entertain you here beyond to say that nicotine isn't what hurts people. Its the stuff that is usually consumed along with nicotine in certain dangerous products that contain it, particularly cigarettes and, perhaps soon to be discovered diketone heavy e-liquid in a few years.

I think you nailed it right there. I'm 40, but in better shape than I was when I was 25. Coincidently I have a much younger GF to live for. I think some have just given up...

40 ain't nothing man, and I say that of course because I'm right behind you! People in their 60's run marathons and get better times than kids in their 20's. Age alone doesn't have to ruin us, but chugging a barrel of diketones just might.

 

[zoiDman]

...

So, you can say you hate FDA deeming, but when it is essentially saying, "we want to make sure products are safe" and "we really don't want minors to be using" and you have expressed yourself to be around 100% in agreement with those 2 positions, then excuse me if I don't believe you when you say you do not favor FDA deeming.

I didn't say I Hated Deeming. Or that "we want to make sure products are safe". That was you projecting what you think will fit best into some "Debate" on an Internet Forum.

I don't have a Problem with 18+ to buy e-liquids that contain Nicotine.

I don't have a Problem with Standardized Labeling like is seen on Foods.

I don't even have a Problem with CRP.

From there, that's where the Problems seem to start with what I think Deeming will be.

 

[Moonbogg]

What would you do, if someone told you vaping PG, VG, nic alone is bad for you?

I would evaluate the risk and take the appropriate action, just like I do with everything else in life. I evaluated the risk with vaping diketones and decided that the permanent destruction of my lungs is not a risk I am willing to take.

 

[Pinggolfer]

What are the 8 Hour Exposure guidelines for Butyrate Ethy in ppm?

Again no clue. If I were a chemist or a Dr I wouldn't be on this thread.

Hard to enjoy anything when one is no longer mobile the last 15 years of their life- whether it be due to obesity or lung damage. When I smoked as a teen I would always just say I didn't mind dying a few years early, until I realized some live the last 15 years of their lives in agony due to poor choices...

Steve the man who will live forever. Please do not work as a firefighter, cop, or join any military. If under attack don't fight but run. You ever think how dangerous playing rugby is? How about baseball, football, hockey, basketball, auto racing. Should all that be banned? If you want to save the world put everyone in a bubble.