Diketones will destroy vaping before they destroys your lungs

[skoony]

If it Came from the Auctual OEM, would you Believe It?

yes.

Because AP at 630ug/ml was the Number I used in My Example. And that is what five pawns says that users were Ingesting at the Time that test was supposed to have been Done.

BTW - What is the Difference to You? You Don't think that Diketones present a Problem. And those Are five pawns own numbers. So the Tin Foil Hat conspiracy people Can't get all Bent and call it a Put On.

there can be no conspiracy where there isn't a hint of any harm happening.
there is no tin foil hats for those that look at the current evidence.
i recall going over 5P's own numbers. please refresh my memory.
they are posted where? at 2500 ppm or more.
regards
mike

 

[zoiDman]

yes.

Well that's Good. Because there have been Some e-liquids that the OEM has said contained AP in 4 Digits.

there can be no conspiracy where there isn't a hint of any harm happening.
there is no tin foil hats for those that look at the current evidence.
i recall going over 5P's own numbers. please refresh my memory.
they are posted where? at 2500 ppm or more.
regards
mike

What is there to Refresh?

The Numbers I posted Came from the Five Pawns Website.

They say now that there is Less AP in some of their e-Liquids. Maybe they felt that their e-liquids Contained Too Much AP so they Reduced it to what they Say it is today?

 

[sparkky1]

No more research needed my friend , i know all about the link between diacetyl and butyric acid . I am vaping butyric acid not diacetyl , i do my best to make sure i don't combine the two . Do i eliminate 100% of potential risk's , no , but i choose between the lesser of two evils .

Most people don't.

And there is no acetoin in your DX ?

 

[QU1T]

proper cardio in the form of tekno party's.

But i do agree with you, that juice makers should mention the ingredients.
It gives people a choice to vape it or not.

Geen probleem, ik verstand younge!
I speak some Dutch, but my writing sucks, so excuse the mistakes if any.

Is that TeKno? with a K? big diff from Techno!
I used to do Teknivals and TeKno gigs in NL when I was younger,
But I still work in the "scene", with many organizations and labels from NL, like Prspct, Qdance, B2S, etc.

Anyway, we are in agreement, and we both keep in shape and enjoy some fine Dutch dry herb, I vape mine, all good
(Forum rules - "dry herbs"...)

 

[stevegmu]

Geen probleem, ik verstand younge!
I speak some Dutch, but my writing sucks, so excuse the mistakes if any.

Is that TeKno? with a K? big diff from Techno!
I used to do Teknivals and TeKno gigs in NL when I was younger,
But I still work in the "scene", with many organizations and labels from NL, like Prspct, Qdance, B2S, etc.

Anyway, we are in agreement, and we both keep in shape and enjoy some fine Dutch dry herb, I vape mine, all good
(Forum rules - "dry herbs"...)

I like discotheques...

 

[440BB]

Inhaling diketones in smaller quantities likely will not cause as much damage as larger exposure incidents, so the damage should be limited, barely noticeable to the vaper. Coffee roasting workers that tested to have reduced lung capacity did not yet notice any change themselves in many cases. No irritation, just gradual reduction, like chinese water torture, one bronchiole at a time. Inhaling diketones hundreds of times a day over a period of years is most likely to cause greater permanent damage and reduction of lung capacity.

Choosing to inhale diketones repeatedly over time, based on their cumulative damaging effect, does not seem rational to me. Encouraging others to ignore this issue and wait for more damage and lawsuits to further prove there is a problem seems devious. I would like to think that most ECF members would not want to steer people toward harmful behavior, including not informing themselves or asking questions.

I'm glad a number of liquid and flavoring makers recognized this issue and avoided diketones long before the 5 Pawns debacle. Many of us want to be proactive about our health and there have been like minded vendors for years. If some vendors are now taking this seriously only because of profit concerns, I'm fine with that too.

 

[Pinggolfer]

Because AP at 630ug/ml was the Number I used in My Example. And that is what Five Pawns says that users were Ingesting at the Time that test was supposed to have been Done.

BTW - What is the Difference to You? You Don't think that Diketones present a Problem. And those Are Five Pawns own numbers. So the Tin Foil Hat conspiracy people Can't get all Bent and call it a Put On.

I notice da nd on their flavors. You go back to historic trst results. You are just fishing and have avoided countless posts asking for any proof of one vapor getting ill. You point has zero merit. You didn't fare well with Nicoticket did you?

 

[Jman8]

Inhaling diketones in smaller quantities likely will not cause as much damage as larger exposure incidents, so the damage should be limited, barely noticeable to the vaper. Coffee roasting workers that tested to have reduced lung capacity did not yet notice any change themselves in many cases. No irritation, just gradual reduction, like chinese water torture, one bronchiole at a time. Inhaling diketones hundreds of times a day over a period of years is most likely to cause greater permanent damage and reduction of lung capacity.

Vapers are inhaling diketones in smaller quantities and thus likely to not lead to much damage. If you think it is likely vapers will be damaged please note the year that you think shortness of breath / poor lung functioning will occur.

Choosing to inhale diketones repeatedly over time, based on their cumulative damaging effect, does not seem rational to me.

It does when you consider how no damage has been reported in 7+ years of vaping.

Encouraging others to ignore this issue and wait for more damage and lawsuits to further prove there is a problem seems devious. I would like to think that most ECF members would not want to steer people toward harmful behavior, including not informing themselves or asking questions.

Who is saying ignore the issue? I think rational people are saying take the emotional hype down a few notches.

Like saying if you vape nicotine, surely your arms will fall off. Why wait for lawsuits and actual cases of arms falling off when we have no idea what long term effects of inhaling nicotine vapor is, but we surely know it is damaging and that people's arms will for sure fall off.

 

[JMarca]

Diketones have been in cigarettes for many many years and far above any levels we see in e-liquid. We've seen people die from cancer and many other diseases that directly stem from smoking traditional cigarettes but I don't think I've ever read anything about Diketones.

Now I'm not saying they aren't harmful I'm just saying this issue has been blown up way out of proportion. We need facts not speculation and long term studies which I'm sure will come out over time, in the mean time people just need to relax, if the Diketones don't kill you the stress surely will.

 

[skoony]

Well that's Good. Because there have been Some e-Liquids that the OEM has said contained AP in 4 Digits.

so what?

What is there to Refresh?

The Numbers I posted Came from the Five Pawns Website.

again so what?

I'm glad a number of liquid and flavoring makers recognized this issue and avoided diketones long before the 5 Pawns debacle. Many of us want to be proactive about our health and there have been like minded vendors for years. If some vendors are now taking this seriously only because of profit concerns, I'm fine with that too.

as far as the so called 5P debacle it looked more like the internet equivalent of a
drive by shooting to me.

regards
mike

 

[Ongeslepen]

Geen probleem, ik verstand younge!
I speak some Dutch, but my writing sucks, so excuse the mistakes if any.

Is that TeKno? with a K? big diff from Techno!
I used to do Teknivals and TeKno gigs in NL when I was younger,
But I still work in the "scene", with many organizations and labels from NL, like Prspct, Qdance, B2S, etc.

Anyway, we are in agreement, and we both keep in shape and enjoy some fine Dutch dry herb, I vape mine, all good
(Forum rules - "dry herbs"...)

Haha, Gruwelijk ouwe

i love the TeKno with a K The normal techno is nice as too. In the end my eyes tend to close and i'm in a trance anyway

 

[zoiDman]

I notice da nd on their flavors. You go back to historic trst results. You are just fishing and have avoided countless posts asking for any proof of one vapor getting ill. You point has zero merit. You didn't fare well with Nicoticket did you?

So once again. Since you don't think that Diketones are Any Problem what so ever, what is the Difference what Numbers I post for Diketone Levels?

The Only reason I posted Five Pawns Results is I knew if I said that there are some who's Daily Amount of Diketones was 2500+ without any Proof that people would have Accused me of Doing what they Accused the OP of Doing. Posting with any Supporting Documentation.

No mater how you Slice it, if you Trust the Five Pawns Results that they Posted on their Website, there their were a Lot of people who were Exposed to High Amounts of Diketones when they used some of Five Pawns e-Liquids in the Past.

 

[Ongeslepen]

Back on topic:
here are some nice info vids about diketones

 

[Pinggolfer]

The Only reason I posted Five Pawns Results is I knew if I said that there are some who's Daily Amount of Diketones was 2500+ without any Proof that people would have Accused me of Doing what they Accused the OP of Doing. Posting with any Supporting Documentation.

No mater how you Slice it, if you Trust the Five Pawns Results that they Posted on their Website, there their were a Lot of people who were Exposed to High Amounts of Diketones when they used some of Five Pawns e-Liquids in the Past.

The only reason you posted last years test results was to prove your own theory. Omitting 2015 results shows your intent to continually attack FP. Now all of those exposed to high amounts of diketones, how many of them are ill or dead? Now if you find someone then you have proof. If you can't your theory is just that a theory. How many other companies did you find with deadly amount of Diketones? Anyone sick or dead from vaping their products?

 

[zoiDman]

The only reason you posted last years test results was to prove your own theory. Omitting 2015 results shows your intent to continually attack FP. Now all of those exposed to high amounts of diketones, how many of them are ill or dead? Now if you find someone then you have proof. If you can't your theory is just that a theory. How many other companies did you find with deadly amount of Diketones? Anyone sick or dead from vaping their products?

Ping... Hello? This is ALL Theory at this Point.

It's a Theory that High Levels of Diketones will cause Lung Damage in Vapers.

And it is a Theory that High Levels of Diketones will Not cause Lung Damage in Vapers.

 

[skoony]

It's a Theory that High Levels of Diketones will cause Lung Damage in Vapers.

And it is a Theory that High Levels of Diketones will Not cause Lung Damage in Vapers.

apparently diketones under certain well defined conditions will cause harm in
a fraction of a percent of factory's where it was used to a statistically meaningless
percentage of the workers and even then quite rarely according to the governments
own documentation.
theory: that diketones are causing damage to vapers who do not meet the
same well defined settings the factory workers encountered.

regards
mike

 

[Jman8]

Ping... Hello? This is ALL Theory at this Point.

It's a Theory that High Levels of Diketones will cause Lung Damage in Vapers.

And it is a Theory that High Levels of Diketones will Not cause Lung Damage in Vapers.

It's a hypothesis that high levels (or really any level) of diketones will cause lung damage in vapers.

It's a working theory that any level of diketones will not cause significant, or noticeable, lung damage in vapers. The evidence thus far overwhelmingly supports this theory.

 

[zoiDman]

apparently diketones under certain well defined conditions will cause harm in
a fraction of a percent of factory's where it was used to a statistically meaningless
percentage of the workers and even then quite rarely according to the governments
own documentation.
theory: that diketones are causing damage to vapers who do not meet the
same well defined settings the factory workers encountered.

regards
mike

So is your Theory that using High Diketone e-Liquids can Not Cause Long Term Damage to a Vaper's Lungs?

 

[zoiDman]

It's a hypothesis that high levels (or really any level) of diketones will cause lung damage in vapers.

It's a working theory that any level of diketones will not cause significant, or noticeable, lung damage in vapers. The evidence thus far overwhelmingly supports this theory.

If I take a 18 year old Non-Smoker and have him Smoke a PAD for 2 Years, then bring him back in and Ask him How he feels:

If he says he Doesn't feel any Different. And Isn't Dead Yet.

Does this Prove that Smoking a PAD is Without Harm?

 

[Jman8]

If I take a 18 year old Non-Smoker and have him Smoke a PAD for 2 Years, then bring him back in and Ask him How he feels:

If he says he Doesn't feel any Different. And Isn't Dead Yet.

Does this Prove that Smoking a PAD is Without Harm?

It would counter the theory that smoking heavily is hazardous to your health. If willing to visit a doctor who could run tests to determine if health is being significantly impacted and it was not, it would be evidence to support this smoker's claim.

It wouldn't be proof that for all individuals smoking heavily, that it will not be hazardous to your health. We do have evidence that smoking heavily will impact your health and could lead to conditions that are hazardous.

For all individuals that have vaped diketones over the course of the last month to last 7+ years, we are yet to read reports of really anyone (non-smoker or smoker) who has seen / felt / had medical determination that their lungs are functioning at lower capacity than when they started vaping AND that it is attributable to vaping diketones. Perhaps if we had at least one case, it would help the chicken littles, a smidgeon, in their quest to get rid of flavors, or diketones, from the industry.