Diketones will destroy vaping before they destroys your lungs

[skoony]

So is your Theory that using High Diketone e-liquids can Not Cause Long Term Damage to a Vaper's Lungs?

my theory is there '"maybe" some potential harm to long term vaping.
what form it would take is anybody's guess. it could come from the reaction
of the vapor to the very air we breathe. at any rate any harm if at all i
don't believe would be comparable or as severe and debilitating as the
illnesses blamed on smoking.

regards
mike

 

[skoony]

If I take a 18 year old Non-Smoker and have him Smoke a PAD for 2 Years, then bring him back in and Ask him How he feels:

If he says he Doesn't feel any Different. And Isn't Dead Yet.

Does this Prove that Smoking a PAD is Without Harm?

if you do the same with a vaper using 4 ml of suicide bunny a day
and he feels fine does that prove vaping is harmful?
regards
mike

 

[zoiDman]

... Perhaps if we had at least one case, it would help the chicken littles, a smidgeon, in their quest to get rid of flavors, or diketones, from the industry.

Back the Chart Up a Second.

I'm Not the One Calling for Diketones to be Removed from the Industry. I think that would be the OP of this Thread.

I'm the One Advocating people making an Informed Choice.

In the Scenario that I described, if you Truly believe that "It would counter the theory that smoking heavily is hazardous to your health.", then I can see why you will Continue to Reject Anything that Anyone says about the Potential Harm that Diketones can Cause.

Not much else then needs to be Said then.

 

[zoiDman]

if you do the same with a vaper using 4 ml of suicide bunny a day
and he feels fine does that prove vaping is harmful?
regards
mike

It Doesn't.

Just like it Doesn't Prove that Vaping 4ml/day of the e-Liquid you Mentioned Isn't Harmful in the Long Term.

 

[Jman8]

Back the Chart Up a Second.

I'm Not the One Calling for Diketones to be Removed from the Industry. I think that would be the OP of this Thread.

So my statement about chicken littles stands.

I'm the One Advocating people making an Informed Choice.

Informed with bias.

In the Scenario that I described, if you Truly believe that "It would counter the theory that smoking heavily is hazardous to your health.", then I can see why you will Continue to Reject Anything that Anyone says about the Potential Harm that Diketones can Cause.

Not much else then needs to be Said then.

I don't see how you/anyone wouldn't see it as countering the theory that smoking heavily is hazardous to your health. That some people who do smoke do not get ill after 2 years or 5 decades does counter the evidence / theory that smoking is hazardous to (all people's) health. If you are unable to make such determinations based on INFORMATION, then I can see why your version of "informed choice" would only mean that we note the harms associated and dismiss all evidence around lack of harms or experiences where harm was not realized.

 

[zoiDman]

...

I don't see how you/anyone wouldn't see it as countering the theory that smoking heavily is hazardous to your health. That some people who do smoke do not get ill after 2 years or 5 decades does counter the evidence / theory that smoking is hazardous to (all people's) health. If you are unable to make such determinations based on INFORMATION, then I can see why your version of "informed choice" would only mean that we note the harms associated and dismiss all evidence around lack of harms or experiences where harm was not realized.

Maybe it would be a Good Time to Clarify something.

Do You feel that Smoking a PAD can cause Harm to the Smoker?

 

[Jman8]

It Doesn't.

Just like it Doesn't Prove that Vaping 4ml/day of the e-Liquid you Mentioned Isn't Harmful in the Long Term.

Also doesn't prove that vaping 1 ml, or more, of eLiquid with nicotine isn't going to make your arms fall off in the long term.

 

[Jman8]

Maybe it would be a Good Time to Clarify something.

Do You feel that Smoking a PAD can cause Harm to the Smoker?

In most cases, I would say smoking heavily is easily associated with harms to the smoker. Surely not all cases, and surely not all levels of amount of use. But in most cases, I would say it does. I have personally felt ill from smoking heavily, even after 1 day of use. After just a couple years, I have noticed changes that were concerning to me, and is significant reason why I chose to go cold turkey (for 8+ years) at one time.

 

[skoony]

Just like it Doesn't Prove that Vaping 4ml/day of the e-Liquid you Mentioned Isn't Harmful in the Long Term.

i haven't said either way if anything is harmful or not.
i have just acknowledge that a potential "may" exist.
it could go either way.
i could very well say every body take up vaping its harmless
and be just as right as those that insist it has to be causing
harm because/popcorn lung.
regards
mike

 

[zoiDman]

In most cases, I would say smoking heavily is easily associated with harms to the smoker. Surely not all cases, and surely not all levels of amount of use. But in most cases, I would say it does. I have personally felt ill from smoking heavily, even after 1 day of use. After just a couple years, I have noticed changes that were concerning to me, and is significant reason why I chose to go cold turkey (for 8+ years) at one time.

Well that is Good. Because I think Most people would agree that Smoking a PAD over an Extended period of Time Presents a Real Risk on ones Health.

So getting back to the 18 Year Old that after 2 years of Smoking a PAD says He Doesn't Feel much Different, and is Clearly Not Dead.

You can see No Similarities or see No Possible Correlations that can make to a Person who Uses High Levels of Diketones and say that they Feel Fine? And is Not Dead Yet?

 

[Jman8]

So getting back to the 18 Year Old that after 2 years of Smoking a PAD says He Doesn't Feel much Different, and is Clearly Not Dead.

You can see No Similarities or see No Possible Correlations that can make to a Person who Uses High Levels of Diketones and say that they Feel Fine? And is Not Dead Yet?

I see the correlation. Do you see that the fact that there are no reported incidents of harmed lungs from vaping counters the hypothesis that vaping high levels of diketones is harmful?

 

[Jman8]

Oh really? That's interesting @zoiDman. Glad to get your informed response to my inquiry.

 

[skoony]

So getting back to the 18 Year Old that after 2 years of Smoking a PAD says He Doesn't Feel much Different, and is Clearly Not Dead.

You can see No Similarities or see No Possible Correlations that can make to a Person who Uses High Levels of Diketones and say that they Feel Fine? And is Not Dead Yet?

there is zero correlation. vaping is not smoking.
regards
mike

 

[zoiDman]

I see the correlation. Do you see that the fact that there are no reported incidents of harmed lungs from vaping counters the hypothesis that vaping high levels of diketones is harmful?

Well once Again, that is Good.

So here is the Big Question: Even if there are currently No Reported Incidents of Never-Smokers who are Vapers using High Diketone levels who have Lung Damage, does this Mean that Diketones in High Levels can Not Cause Lung Damage?

Because I'm sure we can Find Lots of Long Term Ex-Smokers / Now Vapers who have Lung Damage. But common wisdom would place the Damage as due to the Smoking.

This was what got a Lot of People Thinking when the Popcorn Workers got Sick. Because Many/Most of them were Not Smokers. And the Lung Problems that Doctors saw in them had Always been Associated with Smokers.

 

[Jman8]

Well once Again, that is Good.

So here is the Big Question: Even if there are currently No Reported Incidents of Never-Smokers who are Vapers using High Diketone levels who have Lung Damage, does this Mean that Diketones in High Levels can Not Cause Lung Damage?

No, it doesn't mean that. Also, just because there are currently no reported incidents of vapers using nicotine in their eLiquid and having their arms fall off doesn't mean over the long term all those vapers arms won't fall off.

Also possible in the long term is that vapers vaping high levels of diketones will have the best functioning lungs of any human that has ever lived. This position will be far better accepted when we get to the long term and when there are cases around to substantiate it.

 

[zoiDman]

there is zero correlation. vaping is not smoking.
regards
mike

That's a Shame.

Because Even Jman8 who is about the Biggest defender of Diketones can see a Correlation.

Just like I can see his Point that there have been No Clear Cut reports of a user of High Levels of Diketones / Lung Damage.

 

[Rossum]

No, it doesn't mean that. Also, just because there are currently no reported incidents of vapers using nicotine in their eLiquid and having their arms fall off doesn't mean over the long term all those vapers arms won't fall off.

Animal and cell-culture studies. We extrapolate from those. PG, VG, and even nic (in the doses that we use it), appear to be essentially benign in those studies, whereas diketones most certainly are not.

 

[zoiDman]

...

Also possible in the long term is that vapers vaping high levels of diketones will have the best functioning lungs of any human that has ever lived. This position will be far better accepted when we get to the long term and when there are cases around to substantiate it.

Anything Unknown Today is Possible in the Future.

But that Doesn't mean that it is Probable.

 

[Jman8]

I appreciate being labeled a big defender of diketones. In reality, I just feel like I'm here countering fear mongering. Not for my first time on ECF.

The correlation I gave credence to was idea that a smoker who says they feel fine after 2 years of heavy use does have a place in a discussion with a vaper (vaping high levels of diketones) who says they feel fine after 2 years of heavy use.

But with smoking, the evidence is fairly well established, even while it is constantly spun by fear mongers about how smoking kills. For vaping, the evidence is sorely lacking that vaping is hazardous. Suggesting that vaping high levels of diketones will lead to inevitable harm (of the hazardous variety) is IMO equal to the claim that vaping nicotine will lead to your arms falling off, in the long term. I feel both claims can be equally backed up at this time.

 

[zoiDman]

Animal and cell-culture studies. We extrapolate from those. PG, VG, and even nic (in the doses that we use it), appear to be essentially benign in those studies, whereas diketones most certainly are not.

Whoa, Whoa, Whoa...

Let's not Use those Same Scientific Techniques that Show e-Cigarettes are Vastly "Safer" than Cigarettes to Show that Diketones are Hazardous.

Better to Except Studies/Protolcols that show something is "Safer" than Smoking. And then Summarily Dismiss those Same Studies/Techniques when they Don't.