Dimitri Goes Off on Rant About Dishonest Liquid Vendors

[zoiDman]

If C9 knew full well before they posted Lab Reports what 5P would most likely do, then I see it as "storming a windmill with a legal lance." For all we observers of the story know, 5P may take the issue further, and based solely on what C9 has already done.

5P now has to correct their image due to what C9 has done, while C9 (and their supporters) get to claim that C9 only published (accurate) test results. Yet, the damage is done, and observable on the forums. So, if C9 stands by the results, then I don't get why not keep them up? And if taking them down, then it is truly the decision of C9 to no longer discuss / debate the issue, due to money / bottom line.

No.

Storming the Windmill would be What You proposed.

Spending Copious Amounts of Money in a Legal Action with five pawns.

 

[Jman8]

What would they gain by pursuing this when 5P's own results were so high? The initial removal would have been on receipt of the c&d whilst they got legal advice. 5P then published their own high ap results. If 5P had published low ap results - this would have been a very different scenario.

I'm not understanding what the question on top is referring to.

Are you saying that C9 results and 5P are/were the same? That both agree exactly on what makes for high levels?

 

[kates]

That WOULD be cool... I could get rid of my acne scars and wrinkles with Photoshop!

Andria

I want to 'like' this more than once

 

[Jman8]

No.

Storming the Windmill would be What You proposed.

Spending Copious Amounts of Money in a Legal Action with five pawns.

No, storming the windmill is publishing the results in the first place knowing full well how 5P is likely to respond.

 

[zoiDman]

No, storming the windmill is publishing the results in the first place knowing full well how 5P is likely to respond.

If you Can't see Any Value in what Cloud9 did, then I would Love to play Chess with you.

Because you Can't see more than 1 Move Ahead.

 

[DC2]

I wouldn't be surprised if Cloud 9 was unaware of the money and experience behind five pawns.

 

[Jman8]

If you Can't see Any Value in what Cloud9 did, then I would Love to play Chess with you.

Because you Can't see more than 1 Move Ahead.

I can't remember the last time I lost in chess, so challenge accepted.

 

[Woofer]

Match on.. I think you @Jman8 should play with only five pawns

 

[tj99959]

Yeah... I would Definitely drop 10 Pounds. And have Brown Hair instead of Mainly Grey.

LOL

I was thinkin' I would drop 10 Pounds & have Teeth!

 

[Lessifer]

They have also put:
'Our own solicitors have responded in robust terms rejecting allegations made by Five Pawns, and they have now released their own test results, and it is incontrovertible that liquid produced by Five Pawns contains the compounds in question.'

Wasn't that the Plan All Along?

If C9 knew full well before they posted Lab Reports what 5P would most likely do, then I see it as "storming a windmill with a legal lance." For all we observers of the story know, 5P may take the issue further, and based solely on what C9 has already done.

5P now has to correct their image due to what C9 has done, while C9 (and their supporters) get to claim that C9 only published (accurate) test results. Yet, the damage is done, and observable on the forums. So, if C9 stands by the results, then I don't get why not keep them up? And if taking them down, then it is truly the decision of C9 to no longer discuss / debate the issue, due to money / bottom line.

Ok, now wait a minute. Look past the usually animosity here and let's actually look at this.

If C9's only goal was to explain to their customers why they stopped selling a particular line, there are a number of ways they could have done it that didn't involve posting test results. A simple "did not meet our supplier agreement" would have sufficed.

There IS an air of public shaming here, especially with the * line at the end of their initial posting about it being the highest level on record.

Now, you could say they're just looking out for vapers, and think people should be aware of this. That might be true, but going back to the SFATA letter, that's NOT how professionals act. They opened themselves up to legal action.

 

[YoursTruli]

Actually the only sign of B. O. is breathlessness, AFTER some DESTRUCTION has already occurred. This is why I choose to DIY and choose only diketone-free flavors -- as an asthmatic, I already deal with breathlessness on a daily basis, so I would have no way of knowing if it was just my asthma, or something far more serious.

Andria

and it was published in the studies/reports and even stated in the presentation given to the FDA that yes every one of these individuals who in fact had B.O. was misdiagnosed for years before anyone started to connect the dots and found out what they really had and what was causing it.

That's Nice that you would be willing to Spend a Trillion Dollars on this.

But for me, as a Current and Former business owner, my First Responsibility is to my Employees. And the Stability of my Company. Where it would be Nice to throw Buckets of Money down a Legal Rat Hole because "I'm Right". Ensuring that my Employees have a Place to Go at 9 O'clock in the Mourning and a Paycheck on Friday is sometimes More Important then Storming a Windmill with a Legal Lance.

Cloud9 knew full well before they Posted the Lab Reports that a Deep Pocket Company like Five Pawns would most likely go down the road that they did.

So Cloud9 really wasn't forced into doing something that they Didn't want to do. No Need to fall into the Legal Morass where winning is Many/Most Times determined by who can Pay for the Better Team of Lawyers.

I agree they most likely knew 5P would do what they did and I believe C9 stuck their neck out and did this to get the info out there and warn/inform consumers which they were successful in doing and I applaud them for that.

 

[zoiDman]

I wouldn't be surprised if Cloud 9 was unaware of the money and experience behind Five Pawns.

I would be EXTREMELY Surprised if Cloud9 was. They Aren't Exactly some Johnny-Come-Lately Retailer.

And they have access to Lawyers Also.

 

[kates]

I'm not understanding what the question on top is referring to.

Are you saying that C9 results and 5P are/were the same? That both agree exactly on what makes for high levels?

Not the same but both high - 5P couldn't really bring a case that C9's levels were higher than their high levels could they? I suppose 5P might if they indicated what levels they considered were 'of concern' - but so far they haven't done this.
If 5P had shown low levels I'm sure C9 would have defended their results - as it is 5P's results on some juices were high enough for concern on their own so they have no need to defend themselves. (Of concern to those that are concerned about d/ap)

 

[kates]

I wouldn't be surprised if Cloud 9 was unaware of the money and experience behind Five Pawns.

I think it's more likely that 5P thought C9 as a small company wouldn't test and they could keep putting off sending their test results - and that if they took back the stock without any discussion about results C9 would do nothing (and we would still not have seen 5P's 2014 results).

 

[zoiDman]

...

Now, you could say they're just looking out for vapers, and think people should be aware of this. That might be true, but going back to the SFATA letter, that's NOT how professionals act. They opened themselves up to legal action.

Who Said that Business is Always conducted in a Professional Manor?

It would be Nice to think that is Was. But as another Member mention, that Isn't Reality.

Has Five Pawns acted in a Professional Manor?

Cloud9 Didn't open themselves up to Any Legal Actions. Because they had Every Intention of Pulling down the Lab Results when they Received the Demand Letter from Five Pawns Lawyers. Doesn't take a Chess Master to see that one.

And Five Pawns doesn't Want to Pursue a Legal Action. They just want this Whole thing to Go Away. So they can get back to getting Rich selling Outrageously Overpriced e-Liquids. All they want right now is for People to Stop Talking about it on Internet Forums. ala: Suicide Bunny.

 

[DC2]

Ok, now wait a minute. Look past the usually animosity here and let's actually look at this.

If C9's only goal was to explain to their customers why they stopped selling a particular line, there are a number of ways they could have done it that didn't involve posting test results. A simple "did not meet our supplier agreement" would have sufficed.

There IS an air of public shaming here, especially with the * line at the end of their initial posting about it being the highest level on record.

Now, you could say they're just looking out for vapers, and think people should be aware of this. That might be true, but going back to the SFATA letter, that's NOT how professionals act. They opened themselves up to legal action.

I agree with this.

But me personally, I don't care about any of this other than one thing...
I now know how much AP is in the liquids I was using...

It was my fault for assuming that Five Pawns was okay in that respect.
It's a mistake I won't make again, with any vendor.

 

[AndriaD]

Yeah... I would Definitely drop 10 Pounds. And have Brown Hair instead of Mainly Grey.

LOL

Absolutely... I could have an hourglass figure... instead of an anti-hourglass!

Andria

 

[AndriaD]

and it was published in the studies/reports and even stated in the presentation given to the FDA that yes every one of these individuals who in fact had B.O. was misdiagnosed for years before anyone started to connect the dots and found out what they really had and what was causing it.

Yep... and 99.9999% of doctors, when they hear hoofbeats, will INSTANTLY ASSUME "horses"... the thought of zebras never even crosses their minds. I started having hot-flashes at the age of 38... and not one single doctor thought I might be in line for early menopause, but that's in fact what happened; menopause was reached at the age of 47 -- when most women are JUST STARTING to have hot-flashes!

It's kinda funny, actually; I got all those warnings, all those years, that smoking cigarettes would reduce my estrogen -- and I guess it did that. But quitting smoking certainly hasn't reversed it!

Andria

 

[kates]

Now, you could say they're just looking out for vapers, and think people should be aware of this. That might be true, but going back to the SFATA letter, that's NOT how professionals act. They opened themselves up to legal action.

C9 don't sell a well known juice because their distributor was upfront and wouldn't give them the information they wanted re: no d/ap, no problem. They were assured they would get results from 5P and so stocked them. When 5P didn't provide results C9 didn't keep waiting - they tested and found high levels. When given the chance to discuss 5P declined. What do you do if someone won't discuss this with you when you give them the chance to? You could of course do nothing - it is moral dilemma as much as anything - I think they felt the results needed to be published because otherwise they would have been a lot of people vaping high a/p without knowing.
5P seem to have a habit of promising results but not delivering and it appears that up to now they have got away with it. Russ (that bloke who swears a lot) was really angry I think as much as anything with himself - he tested the same well known juice because they wouldn't give him test results but in effect he let 5P off because they kept promising results which didn't materialise - he didn't ever get them (but he also didn't test their product).

 

[Mazinny]

Now, you could say they're just looking out for vapers, and think people should be aware of this. That might be true, but going back to the SFATA letter, that's NOT how professionals act. They opened themselves up to legal action.

Is that your opinion as a " lawyer, cpa and investment banker " or as an anti-regulation advocate ?