Discouraging Nonsmokers from Vaping

[Vocalek]

I've been giving some thought to our attitude about non-smokers taking up the use of PVs.

A while back, a non-smoker posted a question in the New Member's Forum. Several people jumped in discouraging the writer from taking up vaping. A few were gentle, most were not.

I suspect that, in one of two ways, fear was the motivating factor.

1. We buy into the myth that any form of nicotine, regardless of its relative safety, is a danger because it will inevitably lead the user into smoking tobacco. Therefore, we fear for the health and safety of the non-smoking writer.
2. Anyone identifying him- or herself as a non-smoker might be a 'troll' sent in by anti-smoking groups to catch us in trying to entice some poor, unsuspecting waif into taking up the evils of tobacco smoking. Therefore, we fear for our own safety--the product that is our lifesaver could disappear.

Let's talk about that.

Nicotine as a Gateway:

a) The evidence that exists all points in the opposite direction. Nicotine gum, lozenges, and patches are all available OTC in the US. The availability of these products has not created a new generation of addicted smokers. It has helped some people break away from smoking.
b) The "public health experts" in charge of tobacco control convinced the government to put misleading labels on less-risky smokeless tobacco (ST) products because they feared people would use those products first and then move on to smoking. What was accomplished was that some smokers who might have switched to a less-risky source of nicotine did not switch. Furthermore, since ST was painted to be just as dangerous as smoking, some ST users switched to cigarettes. Nice job, Uncle Sam!
c) After a while, most PV users find that tobacco cigarettes start to taste nasty. If someone who requires nicotine is getting enough from their PV, why would they choose to switch to something that is reviled by society, is more expensive, creates a fire hazard, and tastes bad?
d) If someone doesn't require nicotine, why would they want to switch from yummy-tasting 0-nic PV to something that's addictive and deadly?

Proper behavior toward "trolls":

a) "You catch more flies with honey than vinegar." Say that someone who is already prejudiced against us drops in for a visit. If we begin treating that person disrepectfully, we perpetuate his/her poor opinion of us. Wouldn't it be a hoot if a troll did drop by, was treated respectfully, looked around our site, learned a few things, and changed his or her mind?
b) What if your assumption about the writer's motives is wrong? I visited a quit-smoking forum where they jumped to the conclusion that I was there to sell my product (I'm not a supplier) and told me that there was a "special place in hell" for people like me. You can imagine how I felt. Ironically it was the first (and only) time in all the months I have been an ex-smoker that the thought popped into my head, "Damn! I need a cigarette." I didn't light up, but still...

I highly recommend that everyone read the sticky, "Effective Advocacy".

 

[Dredbull]

I jumped and bit a bit harsh at first.

Op could have been feeling a bit left out and also I can understand his social circle might not be all that great.

Smoking in a social setting either hooka, cigs, pv is not all that much of a wise idea but I could see both sides of the coin.

 

[Vocalek]

Excellent point, Dred.

Most of the people here would like to see using a PV become something that is socially acceptable.

Where is the harm? Someone who has always been a non-smoker can use 0-nic juice.

Furthermore, nicotine has many beneficial effects and there is scant evidence that nicotine--when delivered in a cleaner manner--is inherently harmful. In fact, it might be an excellent alternative to the medications currently available for treating attention deficits and cognitive impairments.

 

[Dredbull]

I was in that thread, I pointed out some options to him to look into if he/she were so inclined.

I also did advise her/him to not try it tho.

 

[tmbrown327]

Personally, I have to disagree with at least part of this rationale. I would like nothing more than having us be the last generation that used nicotine recreationally. There's just no point to vaping unless you're trying to break the tobacco habit. I don't agree with jumping down anyone's throat if they suggest it, just point them in another direction. While there doesn't appear to be anything particularly harmful with nicotine usage, there's very little to recommend it either. And if you're not addicted already, why begin a habit that gets you addicted to it? I think we should continue to (gently) dissuade non-smokers from this practice. 0 nic vaping is OK for retired smokers, but there just isn't enough flavor or enjoyment for a non-smoker to take this practice up, other than some kind of peer pressure, and who wants more of that?

 

[yvilla]

I like your points, Vocalek.

I have even seen people considering using ecigs being similarly jumped on when they are non-smokers only in the sense that they are ex-smokers. That makes even less sense to me. For I assume most of us know how frequently and easily an "ex-smoker" can become a smoker again, even after years of non-smoking. In my mind, it would be absolutely preferable to take up using ecigs if there is any chance the person would otherwise begin smoking again.

 

[bleck]

I actually quit cigarettes completely before I started vaping. For about a month and a half. I really had that feeling that I was going to start smoking again. I honestly truly enjoy the act of smoking, and figured this would be wayyyy better than picking up a pack of smokes on the way home one night.

I can also say that at least for me I tried a drag of a cigarette at a party one night and holy cow... How did I ever enjoy that taste? It's definitely not pleasing any longer.

I guess I just feel we're all adults, and there's no reason to jump on another adult in a condescending sort of way when they can make and handle their own decisions.

 

[Lashes]

Lets be honest here. Most people started smoking because of 'peer pressure' or 'to look cool' to begin with... The remainder of us started smoking to 'break the rules' - As a kid I wanted to do everything I wan't allowed to do, just so I could stick it to the man.

These factors will always be factors, lets just hope in generations to come they just start with e-cigs and leave it at that. Rather than digressing to tobacco cigs. At least they aren't killing them selves.

 

[Stubby]

Nicotine can have a very positive effect for many people. A very good read

Nicotine and addiction. (tobaccoharmreduction.org)

There is a reason that over 80% of people with mental illness smoke. They're getting something out of it. It also has a very positive effect on ADD and it seems most of the other problems that deal with cognitive issues.

It's very politically incorrect to say it, but some people should be using nicotine. It just a matter of reducing the harm associated with it.

 

[SquirrilahFish]

my $.02:
We live in a free country, and to each is own, I think if someone that is not a smoker wants to vape, that is their right, although I do not agree, and would not support anyone in that category, this is why:
Nicotine is one of the most addictive substances, most of us are here because traditional cessation products have failed us. We all have known for many years that smoking will kill us, but we still use it anyway. Although it is enjoyable, it does speak alot to its nature. I do not think it is wise for someone who is not addicted to nicotine, to subject themselves to it, even if it is in a SAFER (notice i didn't say SAFE) form.
I say SAFER because; even though we have all seen the benefits of vape vs. analogs, you need to keep in mind you are inhaling chemicals into your body that are not normally there, there has to be some effects, even if minimal, and non life-threatening, it is ignorant to think we will come out of this unscathed. Where there is minimal data, and even less testing non-smokers should be extremely discouraged form vaping.
It is not wise to inhale anything into your lungs over a long period of time, and someone who normally doesn't should be EXTREMELY discouraged from doing so. It is our responsibility as smokers to keep people from taking up this habbit, no matter how "safe" it may be.

 

[SquirrilahFish]

Nicotine can have a very positive effect for many people. A very good read

Nicotine and addiction. (tobaccoharmreduction.org)

There is a reason that over 80% of people with mental illness smoke. They're getting something out of it. It also has a very positive effect on ADD and it seems most of the other problems that deal with cognitive issues.

It's very politically incorrect to say it, but some people should be using nicotine. It just a matter of reducing the harm associated with it.

good article

 

[ladyraj]

Respectfully, I submit that most of us agree that adults are free to engage in whatever behavior they so choose. These PVs are still legal. However, there are trolls attempting to glean proof of allegations such as: the PV will addict nonsmokers. ASH linked to this very forum in it's AB to the smoking everywhere vs FDA litigation.

The FDA report itself found nicotine in 0-nic carts and advising their use to a non-nic user could get small amounts of nicotine in their system which was NOT desired if they ordered no-nic. What to do in this scenario?

What if a 0-nic user accidently got small levels of nic in their blood and their jobs test for nicotine to decide if they will keep that job or how much they will pay for their health insurance?

What if the PV broke down and the habit of inhaling vapor became ingrained... what is the natural thing to reach for when supplies are low?

What if a 0-nic user decided to get all those neat little nicotine brain boosting positives that vaporers write about all the time...then the PV broke down?

There are so many what ifs that I'm more comfortable recommending that someone not start a habit of inhaling anything just to experiment and be included in a fun new endeavor.

How many non-smokers would even entertain the concept of sucking flavored PG from a tube? I suspect the reason that anti-smoking groups have not published an article proving that a non-smoker got hooked on a PV is because most do not seek them out and we police our actions.

Devil's advocate... and alternating

 

[Lashes]

I'm still with the "free country" ideal. If they really want to, they should know what they are getting them selves in to. This isn't rocket science.

 

[Vocalek]

Interesting discourse! Some very good points made on all sides.

 

[MaDPimP]

Im on the fence myself... I am a big believer in personal responsibility and if a consenting adult wants to try something they aught to be able to.

Am i necessarily going to encourage someone to do so? That depends. Anyone i know that smokes, even occasionally, i encourage to check out ecigs. However, would i willingly encourage a non-smoker to pick up a habit forming habit? I would have to say no, but yet again if they want to try it and are here asking for our opinions on it shouldnt we tell them our actual opinions on them starting?

 

[sherid]

Frankly, it is none of our business which adults decide to try vaping or smoking for that matter. My only objection is that on this forum, it is very likely that a non-smoker asking for vaping recommendations is possibly a troll from ASH.

 

[Luma]

I believe that if you DO NOT smoke, Vaping is 100% fine as long as you are vaping with 0mg's of nic. None whatsoever. If you ARE a smoker, I believe this is the best thing that any smoker could ask for. A life change and the ability to quit nicotine all together by weening yourself off.

I smoked for 15 years and tried an e-cig once. As soon as I hit it, I knew I would never smoker another analog cigarette again and was so happy with that fact. It literally changed the entire course of my life in a matter of seconds. I have tried patches, gum, blah blah and they did give me a nicotine fix but I still had the overwhelming urge to smoke an actual cig. I now have my life back and a complete control over my addiction.

If you are not a smoker and want to vape, PLEASE use NO nicotine carts. Anything further than that is your own fault for not researching the facts about nicotine consumption.

 

[hifistud]

If we'd all gotten our nicotine fixes from a beverage - let's call it cottee - in the same way as we get caffeine fixes from coffee, then nicotine usage would be as socially acceptable as a drinking coffee. After all, no-one ever advises against someone having a beer, or a non-drinker having a Kaliber (UK non-alcoholic beer) in case they become hooked on the taste, can't get it, and then buy a proper beer.

What has happened over the years is that nicotine usage has become conflated with smoking tobacco, and thus the actual goal of the nicotine user - to get nicotine - has been demonised.

Consider the deadly drugs and chemicals we use on a daily basis, and yet no-one turns a hair:

Alcohol
Caffeine
Tannin


Why should nicotine be demonised?

If "trolls" from organisations which members believe are targetting PV users and PVs in general do arrive here, then it's perhaps useful to have a sticky on the pharmacology of Nicotine - perhaps compared with caffeine and alcohol. It's probably also as well to have a well-written and balanced view thread to which they can be pointed in order that they're all shown the same hymn sheet from which to sing.

Now, I expect to be flamed for this next bit, but hear me out.

I don't think it helps when individuals are targeted for ridicule and being made to look foolish in a personal manner. It generally results in them taking it personally and beginning a crusade in order to exact revenge on the person - or organisation - who held them to ridicule in the first place.

Sure, their published views are nonsense - demonstrably so - but the essence of good and successful debate is to attack the argument, and not the man.

I had been going to say that I thought the notion that ASH may be sending trolls was a tad paranoid, but in light of certain articles achieving publication on relatively high profile web sites, It's a notion not entirely without merit. Unfortunately, that genie is now out of the bottle - so it does seem sensible to establish a policy for answering questions from never-smokers that does nothing to add fuel to the fire.

 

[Dredbull]

Pfft! I say if they want to at this point in their lives take a chance of addiction then let them.

At 0 nic it is still enjoyable, I would discourage them but at least give them the resources and tools to make an educated choice.

 

[Allestaria]

First I haven't finshed reading the posts but thought I would add before I go to page 2.

I smoke because it helps my anxiety. It has a calming effect. I didn't start to be cool, look mature, or peer pressure. Infact none of those had anything to do with me smoking.

My anxiety/panic attacks are not fun. I have a severe case of anxiety/panic. Bad enough I'm homebound and can not work. I can only go places with someone with me. I do not leave the house alone. NEVER.

Most people yes do start because of other reason. For me it was medical. I started smoking it eased my anxiety (some). My blood pressure lowered. YES lowered. It lowered because my stress is less. Now I know my situation is not normal.

Now its not smoking that lowered my anxiety. It was the nic. So I can first hand say that it has actually helped me. Not fixed my problem as there is no fix for anxiety/panic. Just more and more drugs which I refuse to take. Tried 7 different kinds. The last one I almost jumped off a balcony while working.

So if it would help the next person. Great. I am all for them vaping. I will be talking to my brother about vaping. He has anxiety/panic as well.

************
My personal experience. And my opinion...


Now non smokers... If they want to vape no nic juice. Great! They can make it themselves with vg and flavoring. Then there is no worry about nic being in the juice. It is in there control. There would be no reason for concern. And that is just what I would tell a non smoker. Be safe make your own juice and here is how. That problem is solved.
Will they become accustom to the motions. Yep probably. A habit will be formed. But it wouldn't be a bad habit. It takes 30+ days to begin a habit. (I'm not talking addiction) In that amount of time they would decide if it was something they like to do. That is more then enough time to figure out. Hey this IS for me. Or whoo doggies what have I gotten in to.
A non nic vapor person is less likely to try an analog. If they did. They get the "real" flavor and will not return. If they decide hey I wanna check out what nic is like. So be it.
They are adults. And have the right to make that decision. I have or anyone else has the right to tell them NO. Advise yes, supportive measures against it yes. Treating them like a 2 year old in a candy store NO.
If someone really wants to smoke they will. No matter what. If someone wants to vape they will. Its better to support then it is to hinder.
Facts are all that is needed. Pointing in the right direction. You never know. You might help someone start vaping instead of smoking. You might stop someone from thinking about it with the proper information.

But treating the non smokers like an adult with respect. Will get you a lot further then taking away what is rightfully theirs. THE RIGHT TO DECIDE. Make a friend of a non smoker turned no nic vapor. Just make sure they are informed. And that person could be your next best friend.

again my 0.02