DNA40 vs SX350j

[Yozhik]

You can see it when you try to make sense of the temperature figures bandied around in SXJ discussions. They are all over the place, and that's because one person's calibration is totally different from another one ... and one calibration is totally different from the next.

Refinement provides an consistent baseline that allows temperature to be accurate across situations, which is why we have been able to discuss temperatures with the DNA40 since the start.

I've seen pretty consistent numbers in the sxmini forums. Most people are vaping at 400 F give or take 20F. Admittedly, the SXM is pretty easy to figure out, so unlike the dna crowd we don't have to keep comparing temps to figure out went wrong.

 

[dr g]

I've seen pretty consistent numbers in the sxmini forums. Most people are vaping at 400 F give or take 20F.

That would be nonsensical if it were true (it's not, I can read too so don't bother lying about it).

 

[Yozhik]

That would be nonsensical if it were true (it's not, I can read too so don't bother lying about it).

Ah, is that what you say when you've lost an argument? Nothing factual, just call the person a liar? I'd say that's a much better example of nonsense. Since you claim you can read, please do so with the following quotes from ECF on people using the SX Mini:

"I'm at 420F 33.3J Powerful+ and getting a nice warm vape and huge vapor production."

"I have had really good luck with the .09 build at 410 18J."

"The last build I did on my Lemo 2 28 Ga Soft 0.08 ohms running at 25J 425 F TP has been doing the same thing."

"400 F is my sweet spot as well! I'm usually running between 32-40 Joules on my derringer at .11 with 28 gauge NI200! Fantastic Vape with Orphan Tears!!"

"400F on the SX Mini is perfect for me because I like my vape on the warmer side."

"my SX started to hit the 420°F more and more over course of vaping the 12th, 13th and 14th tank. Flavor was still OK, not even a hint of scratchy hits, but I knew it was time to replace it. Remarkable: after washing the wick, there was no discoloration. None. That's after 40 ml."

"Magma RDA 25 J 420 F. Working nicely."

and so on . . . Sure, there's outliers who really like a much cooler or warmer vape, but a lot of SX Mini users are happily vaping around what I said. I wish that I could say I'm sorry that you're so woefully wrong, but honestly I'm taking a bit of pleasure in pointing it out. Thanks for that.

 

[refuzeandrezizt]

You can put me in that category as well, Yozhik. I am usually 400-425 degrees, and 20-30 Joules.

 

[TKS]

Realistically if it's really an issue you can just lock resistance before you vape.

That's if you live in some weird location where ambient temp changes so much that it's going to make a big enough difference that is.

Easy way to show the benefits of refinement.... place your device (no atty attached) in the fridge for 30 minutes. Place atty there also. Remove from fridge and immediately attach atty and lock in resistance.....(note ohm's resistance) and vape...... let set at room temperature for 30 minutes....(note ohm's resistance) and vape again....

No one should do this. Ever.

 

[TKS]

Ah, is that what you say when you've lost an argument? Nothing factual, just call the person a liar? I'd say that's a much better example of nonsense. Since you claim you can read, please do so with the following quotes from ECF on people using the SX Mini:

"I'm at 420F 33.3J Powerful+ and getting a nice warm vape and huge vapor production."

"I have had really good luck with the .09 build at 410 18J."

"The last build I did on my Lemo 2 28 Ga Soft 0.08 ohms running at 25J 425 F TP has been doing the same thing."

"400 F is my sweet spot as well! I'm usually running between 32-40 Joules on my derringer at .11 with 28 gauge NI200! Fantastic Vape with Orphan Tears!!"

"400F on the SX Mini is perfect for me because I like my vape on the warmer side."

"my SX started to hit the 420°F more and more over course of vaping the 12th, 13th and 14th tank. Flavor was still OK, not even a hint of scratchy hits, but I knew it was time to replace it. Remarkable: after washing the wick, there was no discoloration. None. That's after 40 ml."

"Magma RDA 25 J 420 F. Working nicely."

and so on . . . Sure, there's outliers who really like a much cooler or warmer vape, but a lot of SX Mini users are happily vaping around what I said. I wish that I could say I'm sorry that you're so woefully wrong, but honestly I'm taking a bit of pleasure in pointing it out. Thanks for that.

The facts have already been presented. The sx locks the base reading and never goes lower in reading even if the ambient ten falls and atty is left alone. Thus it's creating a false reading. It ma be pleasurable and whatnot. But the fact is, it's not an accurate readout as compared to the dna40 that adjusts itself when you leave the unit alone after a while.

 

[retird]

No one should do this. Ever.

OK you don't like that then take your device outside in 40F weather and after 30 minutes lock the atty resistance and vape... go into your house where it is 70F and let the device set for 30 minutes and vape.... refinement has a reason and a function...

 

[Yozhik]

The facts have already been presented. The sx locks the base reading and never goes lower in reading even if the ambient ten falls and atty is left alone. Thus it's creating a false reading. It ma be pleasurable and whatnot. But the fact is, it's not an accurate readout as compared to the dna40 that adjusts itself when you leave the unit alone after a while.

Sorry, you're not understanding how these devices operate. Both the SX350J and DNA40 assume room temperature conditions. If the resistance on the SX350J is locked at room temperature, then the temperature estimation works fine even at non-room temperature conditions. With refinement, if the resistance changes because the ambient temperature is no longer at room temperature, it will not be accurate at non-room temperature conditions. There are also other situations where refinement doesn't correctly capture the right resistance.

Regardless, neither approach is going to give you highly accurate readings of temperature, because of that room temperature assumption. To have that, you would need a thermoresistor that is thermally-isolated from the PCB and the battery in a separate part of the device. Both approaches have advantages and disadvantages, both can be abused, but the resistance lock is the only approach that will be consistent in the result. Refinement in some cases may offer better results, but there are also situations where it will offer worse results. From a user perspective, that leads to unhappy users, because when refinement gets it wrong it they can't do anything about it. Thus, there were a lot of complaints about refinement and unsurprisingly Evolv added resistance lock to the DNA40.

 

[aldenf]

Sorry, you're not understanding how these devices operate. Both the SX350J and DNA40 assume room temperature conditions. If the resistance on the SX350J is locked at room temperature, then the temperature estimation works fine even at non-room temperature conditions. With refinement, if the resistance changes because the ambient temperature is no longer at room temperature, it will not be accurate at non-room temperature conditions. There are also other situations where refinement doesn't correctly capture the right resistance.

Regardless, neither approach is going to give you highly accurate readings of temperature, because of that room temperature assumption. To have that, you would need a thermoresistor that is thermally-isolated from the PCB and the battery in a separate part of the device. Both approaches have advantages and disadvantages, both can be abused, but the resistance lock is the only approach that will be consistent in the result. Refinement in some cases may offer better results, but there are also situations where it will offer worse results. From a user perspective, that leads to unhappy users, because when refinement gets it wrong it they can't do anything about it. Thus, there were a lot of complaints about refinement and unsurprisingly Evolv added resistance lock to the DNA40.

I think this is inaccurate. The chipsets know what their current temperatures are. It is up to us to lock in the resistance when the atty and mod are at the same temperature. This gives the chipset a baseline coil temperature from which to regulate. In other words, the chipset always knows the temperature of the coil at its baseline resistance. The temperature coefficient algorithms are not perfectly linear. Without a baseline coil temperature, the chipset could never hope to regulate our desired temperature.

 

[dr g]

Ah, is that what you say when you've lost an argument? Nothing factual, just call the person a liar? I'd say that's a much better example of nonsense. Since you claim you can read, please do so with the following quotes from ECF on people using the SX Mini:

"I'm at 420F 33.3J Powerful+ and getting a nice warm vape and huge vapor production."

"I have had really good luck with the .09 build at 410 18J."

"The last build I did on my Lemo 2 28 Ga Soft 0.08 ohms running at 25J 425 F TP has been doing the same thing."

"400 F is my sweet spot as well! I'm usually running between 32-40 Joules on my derringer at .11 with 28 gauge NI200! Fantastic Vape with Orphan Tears!!"

"400F on the SX Mini is perfect for me because I like my vape on the warmer side."

"my SX started to hit the 420°F more and more over course of vaping the 12th, 13th and 14th tank. Flavor was still OK, not even a hint of scratchy hits, but I knew it was time to replace it. Remarkable: after washing the wick, there was no discoloration. None. That's after 40 ml."

"Magma RDA 25 J 420 F. Working nicely."

and so on . . . Sure, there's outliers who really like a much cooler or warmer vape, but a lot of SX Mini users are happily vaping around what I said. I wish that I could say I'm sorry that you're so woefully wrong, but honestly I'm taking a bit of pleasure in pointing it out. Thanks for that.

Again, it's nonsensical for every setup to vape at the same temperature. Different setups work at different temperature so even if we stipulate to everyone reporting the same temperature, that would prove the SXJ is not accurately reporting temperature.

Personal preference does not account for large differences; that is just bad TC implementation and execution.

Operating temperature should track build type and be consistent across users. It simply is not for the SXJ and there's a reason for that.

Sorry, you're not understanding how these devices operate. Both the SX350J and DNA40 assume room temperature conditions. If the resistance on the SX350J is locked at room temperature, then the temperature estimation works fine even at non-room temperature conditions. With refinement, if the resistance changes because the ambient temperature is no longer at room temperature, it will not be accurate at non-room temperature conditions. There are also other situations where refinement doesn't correctly capture the right resistance.

This is false.

Regardless, neither approach is going to give you highly accurate readings of temperature, because of that room temperature assumption. To have that, you would need a thermoresistor that is thermally-isolated from the PCB and the battery in a separate part of the device.

This is unnecessary if you are sure to take a reading when the board is room temperature. This is what refinement does. So it does what you say is the proper thing.

As I have always said. Refinement is properly engineered TP. Lack of it is an engineering error.

 

[Vooper]

As I have always said. Refinement is properly engineered TP. Lack of it is an engineering error.

No, refinement causing people's device to fluctuate all over the place while they're in the middle of a vape is an engineering error.

 

[dr g]

No, refinement causing people's device to fluctuate all over the place while they're in the middle of a vape is an engineering error.

Refinement does not operate while one is vaping. Please do not talk about things you don't know anything about.

 

[Yozhik]

I think this is inaccurate. The chipsets know what their current temperatures are. It is up to us to lock in the resistance when the atty and mod are at the same temperature. This gives the chipset a baseline coil temperature from which to regulate. In other words, the chipset always knows the temperature of the coil at its baseline resistance. The temperature coefficient algorithms are not perfectly linear. Without a baseline coil temperature, the chipset could never hope to regulate our desired temperature.

Yes and No. Both chips have a temperature sensor, but that can only give you an estimated correction from room temperature based on the PCB temperature. To properly measure room temperature, you need a thermoresistor isolated from the main board (e.g., on a second PCB). The reason for this is that the copper within a PCB is excellent at conducting heat throughout a PCB. The other issue is that since these boards aren't mounted to a heatsink, heat buildup also throws off any estimated correction. Fundamentally, everything is still based around a room temperature assumption, but you can adjust that based on weighted estimate from the temperature chip that is operating at above ambient temperature. One can only make that so accurate and once you deviate enough from room temperature then assumptions behind that estimate begin to substantially break down. A much better approach, which neither board takes, would be to have a thermoresistor (which can be in a chip) separate from the main board and batteries that uses the device body as heat sink. Until then, as Phil Bustardo likes to say, it's not temperature correction, it's temperature guessing.

 

[aldenf]

Yes and No. Both chips have a temperature sensor, but that can only give you an estimated correction from room temperature based on the PCB temperature. To properly measure room temperature, you need a thermoresistor isolated from the main board (e.g., on a second PCB). The reason for this is that the copper within a PCB is excellent at conducting heat throughout a PCB. The other issue is that since these boards aren't mounted to a heatsink, heat buildup also throws off any estimated correction. Fundamentally, everything is still based around a room temperature assumption, but you can adjust that based on weighted estimate from the temperature chip that is operating at above ambient temperature. One can only make that so accurate and once you deviate enough from room temperature then assumptions behind that estimate begin to substantially break down. A much better approach, which neither board takes, would be to have a thermoresistor (which can be in a chip) separate from the main board and batteries that uses the device body as heat sink. Until then, as Phil Bustardo likes to say, it's not temperature correction, it's temperature guessing.

Agreed. That's why it's best to marry an atomizer to the mod after they've been sitting, unused, overnight. The chipset and coil will both be at the same temperature. Want to swap out attys during the day? You're just asking for inaccuracies.

All the discussion in this thread just points to the simple fact that this technology is probably not appropriate for our use unless we want to drastically change the way we vape or tie ourselves to a closed system. We can't change physics. We have to adapt to it and use it to our advantage. Then again, it's all about the expectations.

Thanks for the good conversation!

 

[Yozhik]

Again, it's nonsensical for every setup to vape at the same temperature. Different setups work at different temperature so even if we stipulate to everyone reporting the same temperature, that would prove the SXJ is not accurately reporting temperature.

Personal preference does not account for large differences; that is just bad TC implementation and execution.

Operating temperature should track build type and be consistent across users. It simply is not for the SXJ and there's a reason for that.

Actually, so far as nonsensical arguments of yours, this is the one that is most baffling.

First, most people are using only a few different tanks with temperature control (e.g., Kanger Subtank Mini, Lemo 2). Even when they are not, the outliers still tend to feature center pin airflow to a single coil. So in that regard, build types being used will have a lot of commonality.

Second, many users are using cotton wicks, which means that most of them will want to stay below the temperature at which cotton begins to degrade (which people like to say is about 425 F). So the fact that a lot of people are staying below 425 F is kinda rather glaringly OBVIOUS.

Third, what matters with TC (outside of the wick issue) is what temperature one likes to vape the e-liquid at. If one builds a .065 ohm coil or a .13 ohm coil in a Subtank Mini, one is still going to vape it at around the same temperature. The only issue here might be with very high resistance nickel coils, in which case peak vs. average temperature within the coil can require lowering the temperature. However, since most SXM users are building coils below .15 ohms, peak vs. average temperature problems are minimized.

Fourth, human beings can sense the temperature of vapor and have opinions about whether it is too cold or too hot. Just like anything else regarding our sense of temperature, one should expect that there should be a pretty consistent range of what temperature people like to vape at.

Fifth, when someone is an outlier in terms of favored temps on an SXM, it's usually rather apparent why that is the case (e.g., they like a very warm vape, they are using rayon, they are using high VG liquid).

Thus, given the commonality in preferred atomizers, the low-ohm coils being built, the prevalence of cotton wicks, human sensitivity to vapor temperature, the ability to understand outliers, and so on, everything points to a situation where consistency should occur and with the SXM does occur. In contrast, inconsistency of temperature settings in view of such factors would suggest that the DNA40 is not working properly if that is what is being reported.

 

[TKS]

Regardless, neither approach is going to give you highly accurate readings of temperature, because of that room temperature assumption. To have that, you would need a thermoresistor that is thermally-isolated from the PCB and the battery in a separate part of the device. Both approaches have advantages and disadvantages, both can be abused, but the resistance lock is the only approach that will be consistent in the result. Refinement in some cases may offer better results, but there are also situations where it will offer worse results. From a user perspective, that leads to unhappy users, because when refinement gets it wrong it they can't do anything about it. Thus, there were a lot of complaints about refinement and unsurprisingly Evolv added resistance lock to the DNA40.

Resistance lock is a patch for the legions of people who don't understand the design and tech approach they took to get temp control. People would rather have a good vape even if the temp was wrong in its readout (naturally you want the highest accuracy and it can't be had unless we take the steps you outline but of course, this is the best we have now). If they were interested in a good vape and don't care so much for temp controls, then I don't why they would use it. However cumbersome it might be, the way the DNA40 was presented by early reviewers is why we have these confusions like I used to. They made it seem so simply as screwing the batty on and you're set.

Resistance lock defeats the purpose of temp control unless you are sure the ohms would drop based on differing ambient temps. It's good to have the option but it is worthless if you seek as accurate temp control as the tech will allow.

 

[Mad Scientist]

I'm not sure if this adds anything but I have both and I prefer the DNA40 user interface to the SX-mini M-class. They both perform exceptionally well for me. I admit to not really caring if the temp display on either is "accurate" as long as it is reasonably consistent and I can set it to a (likely somewhat arbitrary) number and have it perform consistently at the setting. Which is "better"? Well which "style" of user interface do you prefer? I don't use either as a laboratory instrument so I did not review error % before buying. I knew what I was getting into when I bought them (basically first gen mass market temp control) and a year from now when version 17.5 or whatever is out there, the whole discussion will be very different. Right now they both work much better for me than what I had before. So I'm satisfied I got my money's worth when buying each of them.

One thing I sort of hate about the M-class is having to press the two buttons every time I change atomizers. It's not any big deal to press two buttons simultaneously; it is a big deal to have to remember to do so lol.

Another suggestion to mod designers free of charge (and I've posted this before) -- in stealth mode, two quick clicks of the fire button wakes up the display until, say, 10 seconds after the last button press. I like stealth mode but sometimes it's too stealthy lol.

 

[Vooper]

Refinement does not operate while one is vaping. Please do not talk about things you don't know anything about.

Then a whole bunch of reviewers were using a different chip to you.

 

[puffon]

Then a whole bunch of reviewers were using a different chip to you.

What makes you think refinement is happening while you vape?
Do you actually own a DNA40?

 

[Dobo]

Check the Joyetec eVic-VT.

Another suggestion to mod designers free of charge (and I've posted this before) -- in stealth mode, two quick clicks of the fire button wakes up the display until, say, 10 seconds after the last button press. I like stealth mode but sometimes it's too stealthy lol.

Mods: VS rDNA 40 / Cloupor Mini
Attys: PhenomenoN Zest / Lemo Drop / Lemo