Do you vape juice from China, or only from USA?

[sailorman]

Well, I got as far as the assertion about one atty made in the U.S. negating the fact that all attys are made in China. Did you expect a level of accuracy that someone would say that 99.99999999% of atty's are made in China? Then, I skipped to the bottom and again seeing you reference JC as proof that ALL US juice makers are certifiable clean and open to inspection. Do you think that the vendor list here is somehow representative of the majority of e-juice makers or marketers in the country? It isn't. Tons of juice is, rebranded, mixed, modified and sold by companies you never knew existed through markets you never heard of. Since Dekang is responsible for the vast majority of the Chinese juice that hits the US market, and other markets as well, Dekang is pretty representative of Chinese juice. To attribute a similar role to JC is ridiculous. I would hazard a guess that JC makes less than 0.01% of all the juice vaped in this country.

Then, you continue with the claim that " for every mg of nicotine needed for juice that's less mg needed for cigarettes." This statement totally ignores the disparity between the amount of nicotine used by a vaper and a smoker. More importantly, it ignores the fact that much of the imported nicotine isn't used in e-juice in the first place and they won't just ban e-juice nicotine. If they ban nicotine imports, it will be ALL nicotine imports, including that used for agriculture and medical concotions. If it is a competition between e-juice, Big agriculture and BP for domestic nicotine, vapers will lose out big time. You evidently have no concept of the vast quantity of nicotine imported into this country, and the proportion it represents of total use. You are evidently also unaware of the small proportion of imported nicotine that e-juice uses, in comparison of total imports. If all nicotine imports could be replaced by some vegetable at anywhere near the price of tobacco derived nicotine, it would already be happening. I, personally, would ensure that approx. 1000 acres is devoted to the cause. The rest of your arguments, at least those I read, are equally as fallacious.

I'm particularly offended by your point #133. Nowhere did I ever say, let alone try to back up, that RTS used Chinese nicotine. I specifically said I didn't know where their nic came from. When elfstone told me, I said "Great". Somehow that is supposed to negate my claim that probably 90% of nicotine comes from China? I don't think so. And, again, you insist on totally ignoring ALL the other nicotine from China that never sees an e-cig. Newslfash!! The amount of nicotine produced by RTS in a year probably wouldn't match one day's worth of imports from China. Now, go find the statistics that prove it would match 25 hours worth and use that in your rebuttal.

This is just one typical example of your prevarications. So, I'm about done responding to you. You obviously know nothing about the nature and extent of international trade, marketing, manufacturing or what does, and doesn't come from China.

I'm not even going to read the rest of that wall o' text. There's nothing there. You've done exactly what I suspected you would. You've quoted things out of context, spun them with commentary to imply that people made claims that they didn't make, taken invalid inferences an made false assumptions, attempted to discredit an entire point by taking it out of context and focusing on a trivial exception and then topped it all off with big dollops of misinformation. Somewhere on the net, there's a list of common fallacies used in debates. I'm pretty sure that you've exercised every one of them. I hereby dub you Queen of Fallacious Reasoning.

 

[elfstone]

Wow! Now that is a reply! Good job, Myk (really, no sarcasm). At least you have condensed some of the points in a long thread.

Unfortunately, you are still missing the point. Several rhetorical figures aside (see - "sneezing all over", an unfortunate hyperbole, I admit) the argument remains the same:

To the question "do you vape juice even if it is frm China?", the answer was structured as follows:

1a) the absence of any evidence that Chinese juices are less safe or somehow inferior to US made juices

1b) the fact that Dekang exports enormous amounts of juice worldwide with little or no evidence of ill effects

1c) the fact that, as opposed to the vast majority of US juice makers, we have some information about Dekang's production facilities and practices

--> "Chinese juice" (namely juice exported by large-scale ventures like Dekang or Hangsen) is probably safe

2a) the fact that, unfortunately, the US scene is made up of a large number of unregulated small time / individual businesses about which we have little of no information

2b) the strong assumption that small and unregulated operations are more likely to have no / little in the way of operating procedures, and internal and external controls

2c) US food safety regulation enforcement has a track record of being overwhelmed / ineffective and there is poor deterrent from widely publicized cases where the guilty parties faced too mild consequences

--> simply being produced in the US does not represent any intrinsic guarantee of safety or superiority to being made outside the US


3a) nicotine is a cheap extracted chemical

3b) a majority of the nicotine available on the US market comes from China and/or India

3c) it very probable that certain flavorings are either made in China or elsewhere or they are made with ingredients made in non-Western developed countries since a lot of chemical extraction / synthesis takes place there

3d) very few US juice makers clearly state that they do not use Chinese ingredients; that statement seems to be a selling point, so more would make it if they could

--> it is likely that a lot of "US made" juice contains ingredients from China anyway


4a) even in the absence of good marketing data, it is known that traditionally Chinese juice represents a majority of the juice consumed worldwide (not among ECF members, but among all users - this includes probably all prefilled cartridges and cartos and all refillables)

4b) the great majority of vaping hardware comes from China

--> casting doubts on Chinese vaping products just because they're Chinese may hurt the entire vaping phenomenon


Now, you mostly take issue with #2 above, and especially with 2a and b. You interpret those statements as attacks against US juice manufacturers. I understand your emotional reaction, but you keep failing to bring anything to the table that would opose those statements.

First, it was not intended as an attack. It most likely a non-inferiority argument like all the others - there is nothing to suggest being made in the US guarantees anything in terms of safety.

We didn't set out to exclude the possibility that plenty of US juice manufacturers are responsible and put out a great product. That's how we ended up talking about JC - it is the only one we, on either "side" could come up that we know something about their working conditions. And, most likely, a majority of the well reputed vendors and ECF "forum suppliers" fall in the same category, although we don't know a lot about their shops; we do have countless positive experiences with them, and little in the way of dramatically negative events.

I guess this point should have been made more clear. I never wanted to bash specific US vendors or US vendors in general. But it is beyond discussion that one needs to stick to such vendors that have the experience and the good practices that can ensure a safe, vapeable juice. And the common sense conclusion is, too, that it is quite possible that a lot of non-transparent, small scale US vendors do not hold themselves to any particular standards, and no one else does. And therefore, just because it's American it doesn't mean it's safe.

Overall vaping in general - Chinese or not - has a great safety record in terms of juice.

Overall, however, no solid data exists about the use, sales and safety of juice - US or otherwise!

Although this started more like an subordinate argument to a greater construct, the fact of the way US juice manufacturers are a big unknown remains. Just I suspected, you don't have any additional information to support your opinion. That lack of information is a problem. I think it is high time that a movement requiring some minimal standards and more transparecy was initiated. If nothing else, this discussion did bring into clearer view the fact that even those who hold that US made juice is safer / better have no real information to base that on. I guess we'd be much better off in every way if we started having that information. I think a self-regulatory effort is in order.

Without intention, we seem to have stumbled upon a sore spot. It's not our fault that the problem exists, we just pointed at the elephant even if we didn't really mean to. But I think the way things are now, when not even you who are so adamant on the subject can come up with any knowledge on how juice is manufactured here... well... we should take notice.

Emotionally, I'd really like to have that information and to be able to say "the Chinese cannot match this"!

For me, the bottom line is that I would love nothing more than to know American juice is made to a better standard than imported juice, and that it would be difficult for one of those sneezy one man shows to sell their bath tube creations on some generic web storefront. But I don't know that, and I guess we should work on it before the likes of Lorillard bring up the issue...

 

[sailorman]

It's not the cleanliness of the mixing or even the extracting that has my attention. It's the barrels they are shipped in. I'm basing that on an US barrel factory I lived near that was a literal toxic waste site when they closed down.

And a US barrel factory's manufacturing practices is germane to the barrels China uses for export from China how exactly? What was dumped onto the ground from used US barrels or left at a manufacturing site is relevant how?

Weren't contaminated barrels the source of one of the pet food poisonings? China exports more so they have more barrels floating around thus have better odds for the wrong barrel to get put into the wrong pile.

I have never heard that theory. Regardless, you know absolutely nothing about how a Chinese nicotine lab handles or ships their product. I do know that pure nicotine is not shipped in the kind of drums that other products, like industrial chemicals, is shipped in. How it's handled once it gets to the U.S. is a different issue. Your experience with a barrel factory has no bearing whatsoever on the risk or condition of anything exported by a Chinese lab. I do know that if I wanted to import pure nicotine from a major lab that supplies J&J, SGK and other big pharma companies, the largest individual container I could get is 25kg. That's about 6 gallons and I have no reason to think that any other lab supplies it in 55 gallon drums. 6 gallons is hardly the kind of industrial drums you have in mind when you mentioned that toxic waste site.

 

[sailorman]

Wow! Now that is a reply! Good job, Myk (really, no sarcasm). At least you have condensed some of the points in a long thread.

Unfortunately, you are still missing the point. Several rhetorical figures aside (see - "sneezing all over", an unfortunate hyperbole, I admit) the argument remains the same: .......

Excellent synopsis. I wish to God I could be that articulate, dispassionate, concise and organized in my arguments.
With that, you have written, in a way anyone should be able to understand, everything I have been attempting to say.
Hopefully, unlike my comments, they are more impervious to misrepresentation, manipulation and distortion.
Hats off and many Kudos to you, Sir. You have saved me untold keystrokes, and not a few BP points as well.

 

[sailorman]

Actually up here in Canada vendors have gotten an Association together and are insisting on quality control and mandatory independent testing among it's members. It's a start.
As for China and trust since I was laid off I've been playing the mkts- did it yrs ago so it wasn't too bad getting back into the flow. The problem with Chinese companies is the business culture and in general the lack of ethics has not changed. Seems it's a weekly situation with Chinese companies (some of them RTOs) getting delisted/ halted/ investigated because of inflated revs/ holdings, illegal insider trading. etc. We are talking about hundreds of billions of dollars worth of fraud...as for the Chinese Govt penalizing anyone I've yet to see it happen. And no I have not gotten burnt on any of these "yet". I also watched a video by an Alberta, Canada Professor who was studying the Ecig movement. He was impressed with quality in N. America but said he was concerned about QC in China. He believed there were a "couple dozen companies" that were suspect. He supports vaping 100%.

The problem with that comparison, is that it's coming from a Canadian perspective. In the U.S., over the last 30 years, the things that you list as lapses of business ethics have increasingly been viewed as natural to the "free market". In China and Canada, they investigate insider trading. In the U.S., they tweak the laws to make it increasingly legal. When was the last time someone was imprisoned in the U.S. for insider trading? Martha Stewart? In China, and presumably Canada, they investigate people for fraudulent accounting. In the U.S., they revise the accounting laws as necessary to avoid such scandals. Obama just got done with such a move in relation to startup companies seeking capital. You have to pretty much go back to Enron and Mike Milken to find any significant case of anyone being prosecuted for corporate fraud. Yeah, they nailed Madoff for a Ponzi scheme, but on a corporate level, almost no one is ever prosecuted, let alone jailed for those types of things. The U.S. has been emasculating and gutting the SEC, as well as every other regulatory agency we have, for 30 years now. The free-market fundamentalists have been holding sway ever since St. Reagan uttered those immortal words "Government isn't the solution, government is the problem". We have very little room to criticize Chinese business ethics. Canadians might, but Americans don't have a leg to stand on in that fight.

 

[Myk]

Then, I skipped to the bottom and again seeing you reference JC as proof that ALL US juice makers are certifiable clean and open to inspection.

Isn't that the same thing you did with Dekang's video. Except for the part you claiming no US makers had a video then admitting you knew they did a few posts later.
You seriously don't see a problem there?

Johnson Creek makes all the juice for a company that was just sold for $135,000,000.00. I'm guessing that alone translates into more than .01% or else US e-cig business is a lot bigger than anyone imagined.

Why would they ban any imported nicotine just because I don't trust Chinese e-juice? That makes no sense. I don't trust Chinese apples or dog food and those are still being sold.
However they will close US juice makers down because you spread that they're making juice in their bathrooms.

It already happens that nicotine is not only extracted from tobacco. If you would stop ignoring what you don't want to hear you would've already accepted that when someone else said it.

Yes you did do #133. I put the post numbers there for you to go back and check. But since you can't be bothered to read what you don't want to see it's not surprising you wouldn't go check.
I'll quote it here,
When asked how would RTS get away with lying you responded,

I don't know. Do they claim that? Do they say the pure nicotine they use was extracted in the U.S.? Or, do they say it's "sourced" here? I'll have to take a look. Do they sell 99.7%+ nicotine? If they sell only lesser concentrations, they can say it's made here because it is. It's made here with imported nicotine, just like "made in USA" e-juice is.

You admit you didn't know whether or not they sold US nicotine. Then you go on to spread some fear that's it's possible they don't actually use US nicotine. You could've found the truth with a simple mouseclick before replying, and then admitted you were wrong.
You can be offended all you want. You're one of the ones who took it upon yourself to attack US juice makers because some people don't trust Chinese products which I find offensive.

The fact that you don't bother reading the things you don't agree with explains a lot.
Of course you're done responding.
Maybe next time the topic comes up you'll focus on defending Chinese juice instead of attacking US juice.

 

[Myk]

And a US barrel factory's manufacturing practices is germane to the barrels China uses for export from China how exactly? What was dumped onto the ground from used US barrels or left at a manufacturing site is relevant how?


I have never heard that theory. Regardless, you know absolutely nothing about how a Chinese nicotine lab handles or ships their product. I do know that pure nicotine is not shipped in the kind of drums that other products, like industrial chemicals, is shipped in. How it's handled once it gets to the U.S. is a different issue. Your experience with a barrel factory has no bearing whatsoever on the risk or condition of anything exported by a Chinese lab. I do know that if I wanted to import pure nicotine from a major lab that supplies J&J, SGK and other big pharma companies, the largest individual container I could get is 25kg. That's about 6 gallons and I have no reason to think that any other lab supplies it in 55 gallon drums. 6 gallons is hardly the kind of industrial drums you have in mind when you mentioned that toxic waste site.

You just can't deal with anyone else having an opinion can you?
I did not say that was pertinent. I state MY reasoning. I suggest you learn to deal with it.

 

[Myk]

Elfstone,
I agree that Chinese juice is probably safe just like everyone's juice is probably safe. Has anyone ever been poisoned by juice?
Even the stuff the FDA tested to find DEG probably had some make it to market but the amount was so small nobody noticed (I bet it was from PG shipped in a former DEG container meant for a anti-freeze company where the contamination wouldn't matter that got redirected somewhere it did matter).

I really don't think there is much risk of contaminates by the time everything is mixed and then turned into vapor.
I never said my lack of trust for Chinese juice was rational. It's just there and when I'm reminded of it a few hundred times a day with every puff it builds into a panic and I quit vaping. That's the way panic disorder works.
Why should I or anyone else feel pressured into using something they don't trust?

I also know some US companies play word games which is why I email any I am interested in with the direct question of "country of origin".
Claiming the word game doesn't become a problem until they all or most get claimed to be doing that. Most I've looked at either don't mention country of origin, they use the obvious "US mixed" or proudly say "Dekang".

I'm not so worried about the hardware. The amount of possible lead wouldn't be enough to effect this old man who's not about to or planning on becoming pregnant

 

[tyvmds23]

I only buy juice from the USA

 

[Vapoor eyes er]

In China and Canada, they investigate insider trading.

Not true. As posted no one in China is prosecuted unless it is skimming from a Govt owned factory or directly hurts the Chinese investor. As far as the OSC in Canada in their entire history (as of 2? yrs ago) they have investigated twice and fined someone once. THE SEC is run by the same individuals that have worked in the industry= old boys club. I truly believe it's the accountants that should be held responsible for these frauds if they have signed off on them. I'll never forget the interview with a European trader employed by a brokerage. When they asked him what would happen with the Greek debt crisis he laughed, stared into the camera and said "whatever GS and the other large brokerages decide to do will happen". He said if they want default it will happen. Also stated Govts were not in control but the brokers were. They panned the camera around and the two commentators were absolutely stunned/ speechless/ shocked. Previously what worried me was the great divide between the wealthy and the poor/ middle class. I am now concerned about the amount of power Wall Street has. Spoke to a co worker of wifes (fin industry)- he's a trader and and he said he buys and sells the "heartbeat" of small countries in minutes if not seconds and admitted to me sometimes the amount of power he felt he had was scary. Regardless of where anyone buys their juice it's a non regulated industry and buyer beware.
Cheers.

 

[wv2win]

sailorman and elf, excellent responses, logical and well constructed.

Myk, as others have stated, you took all of our comments out of context and twisted them to ineffectively attempt to support your opinion that Chinese eliquid is not to be trusted, seeing as you stated you don't trust it. As you well know, my comments on the "fact" that a few US food processing companies caused illnesses due to their unclean enviornment was only to show the fallacy, of using the Chinese pet food problem as reason to call into question the safety of Chinese eliquid. Isolated instances, especially from a completely different industry, do not prove that all ingestable products from those countries are not safe. But you just cherry picked partial comments out of context to try and make a point.

More importantly, no where in all of your long posts did you provide any supporting facts that would lead a rational person to not trust Chinese eliquid. Yet the causual reader, especially a new person, since this is the new member section, could easily read your comments that you don't trust Chinese eliquid and think it must be a dangerous product. And then they learn that a vast majority of all eliquid comes out of China and now they could easily surmise that vaping in general is dangerous.

It's these kind of non-supported comments that we object to. If you can prove with facts that a specific product from a foreign country is not to be trusted, then do so. If you cannot, then statements that specific products from another country are not to be trusted would lead a logical person to believe that the person making that statement is, to some degree, xenophobic.

 

[newq]

Truthfully I think it is safe to say, Pride aside there are no garuntees of the product quality from either side of the ocean. I will vape whatever tastes good to me. I dont really care who it is made by so long as I have a reasonable sense of faith in the vendor for quality and safety assurance. Again, this is only a sense of faith. It is not based on any legitimate data. However I do take alot of stock in ECF members themselves.

I was Not around for the BE quality control debacle. Search "Box Elder Houston we have a problem" If you are not familiar with the issue. But it does give me a great sense of faith in the ECF community that if I needed to be aware of something that eventually I would stumble acrossed it on ECF sooner rather than later. My stance is that track record says alot. If you dont see much around ECF to the negative for any long standing vendor it should stand testament to the products self evident safety.

 

[sailorman]

Isn't that the same thing you did with Dekang's video. Except for the part you claiming no US makers had a video then admitting you knew they did a few posts later.
You seriously don't see a problem there?

No, I don't see a problem. I was unaware the ONE U.S. juice company allowed a camera in. Big deal.

Johnson Creek makes all the juice for a company that was just sold for $135,000,000.00. I'm guessing that alone translates into more than .01% or else US e-cig business is a lot bigger than anyone imagined.

Blu is the SINGLE biggest e-cig retailer. That doesn't mean they are bigger than all the rest combined, or even anywhere near as big. And it doesn't imply that they represent a significant portion of the TOTAL juice sold in the U.S.. So, yes, considering that Dekang is already the indisputably biggest juice maker in the world, JC is a dwarf in comparison.

Why would they ban any imported nicotine just because I don't trust Chinese e-juice? That makes no sense. I don't trust Chinese apples or dog food and those are still being sold.
However they will close US juice makers down because you spread that they're making juice in their bathrooms.

They didn't ban the import of apples or dog food, now did they? If people like you keep spreading rumors of bad Chinese products and keep making a big deal about it, and they ban Chinese nicotine, they will ban ALL Chinese nicotine, not European nicotine, not Indian nicotine. They could ban it, or they could restrict it to the point where it's very much more expensive. That will affect the price of ALL juice, Chinese or not. I am not accusing anyone of anything. I argue that we don't know. And we don't know. You don't know. I don't know. So quit acting like it's not possible.

It already happens that nicotine is not only extracted from tobacco. If you would stop ignoring what you don't want to hear you would've already accepted that when someone else said it.

Yeah, whatever. It's so feasible that we still import most nicotine from China. People run cars on used vegetable oil too.

Yes you did do #133. I put the post numbers there for you to go back and check. But since you can't be bothered to read what you don't want to see it's not surprising you wouldn't go check.
I'll quote it here,
When asked how would RTS get away with lying you responded,

"I don't know. Do they claim that? Do they say the pure nicotine they use was extracted in the U.S.? Or, do they say it's "sourced" here? I'll have to take a look. Do they sell 99.7%+ nicotine? If they sell only lesser concentrations, they can say it's made here because it is. It's made here with imported nicotine, just like "made in USA" e-juice is."

You admit you didn't know whether or not they sold US nicotine. Then you go on to spread some fear that's it's possible they don't actually use US nicotine. You could've found the truth with a simple mouseclick before replying, and then admitted you were wrong.

You're funny. You have such a chip on your shoulder that you can't even recognize a question when you read it. You have to turn it into an accusation. Everything I said there was true. I didn't know what they used. If they diluted it, they could claim it's made in the US. I'm not accusing them of anything. I said I'd take a look and I did.

OTOH, this is what YOU said

#133, sailorman admits he didn't know RTS was American made nicotine. But then goes on trying to justify a claim that they're not telling the truth.

Now, you tell me how I'm trying to justify a claim (that I never made) that they were not telling the truth. I never claimed they weren't telling the truth, so there was nothing to justify. I was stating how ANY company could use the word "sourced" or "made", depending on what they were referring to, and be telling the truth. Please learn to read.

You can be offended all you want. You're one of the ones who took it upon yourself to attack US juice makers because some people don't trust Chinese products which I find offensive.

I find offensive the fact that you react this way to things you are incapable of comprehending.
If you want to be offended at something, be offended at what someone actually says, not what you think they said.

The fact that you don't bother reading the things you don't agree with explains a lot.
Of course you're done responding.
Maybe next time the topic comes up you'll focus on defending Chinese juice instead of attacking US juice.

You have failed to produce one single example of an attack on American juice. Stating fact that would be obvious to any high school student is not attacking them, unless someone is paranoid and hyper-sensitive enough to interpret them that way. Saying what is possible is not the same as saying what IS. Do you fail to see that distinction? Saying someone could use certain language to be technically correct while conveying the wrong impression is not attacking anyone. It's a basic fact that any normal, thinking adult is fully aware of.


Elfstone summarized all the relevant points on the subject quite nicely. If you can't understand it, I guess I can't expect you to understand the sentiments expressed in an entire thread.

 

[sailorman]

Elfstone,
....
I really don't think there is much risk of contaminates by the time everything is mixed and then turned into vapor.
I never said my lack of trust for Chinese juice was rational. It's just there and when I'm reminded of it a few hundred times a day with every puff it builds into a panic and I quit vaping. That's the way panic disorder works.
Why should I or anyone else feel pressured into using something they don't trust?
...

Nobody's pressuring anyone into anything. We're simply asking them to be rational and quit spreading fear, especially irrational fear, about Chinese juice or nicotine. We simply pointed out that it can't be that bad because it's so prevalent and people use it whether they know it or not. We made the point that even if they use juice that claims to be "sourced" in the U.S., it doesn't necessarily mean that they're not vaping chinese nic anyway.

I'm sorry if facts are inadequate to quell your fear. But you needn't spread it. I'm sorry that I didn't recognize I was debating whose position was grounded in an irrational fear. There is an old saying that you cannot reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

Since reason and rationality are the only things I have to work with, and neither are adequate tools for discourse with the irrational, I have no alternative than to stop it here. But please do not continue to misrepresent my position by filtering it through the lens of fear and defensiveness.

 

[sailorman]

Truthfully I think it is safe to say, Pride aside there are no garuntees of the product quality from either side of the ocean. I will vape whatever tastes good to me. I dont really care who it is made by so long as I have a reasonable sense of faith in the vendor for quality and safety assurance. Again, this is only a sense of faith. It is not based on any legitimate data. However I do take alot of stock in ECF members themselves.

I was Not around for the BE quality control debacle. Search "Box Elder Houston we have a problem" If you are not familiar with the issue. But it does give me a great sense of faith in the ECF community that if I needed to be aware of something that eventually I would stumble acrossed it on ECF sooner rather than later. My stance is that track record says alot. If you dont see much around ECF to the negative for any long standing vendor it should stand testament to the products self evident safety.

That goes to my position that a company should be trusted based on it's record. That includes Chinese companies like Dekang, who has had a sterling record and was not even involved in the DEG thing.

So far, I am aware of only 2 incidents regarding questionable or dangerous e-juice products. Before the Box Elder thing, there was a popular vendor whose name escapes me. He was an overnight sensation in the juice market and, evidently a one man show. He was on the top of the world for a while until suddenly quality dropped off, orders were filled wrong, nothing tasted like it was supposed to. AFAIK, nothing dangerous happened and nobody was injured but, as it turned out, he just lost it. The money went to his head, he developed, or increased an existing, drug problem and took off for days at a time. He left his girlfriend, who knew nothing about e-juice, in charge of mixing and filling orders. His whole juice empire collapsed, fortunately, before anyone was hurt. But his reputation was permanently destroyed.

Now, prior to this incident, I could have said something like that "could" happen. I guess that would have constituted an attack on the entire American e-juice industry. But I don't hear that incident, or the BE one, used to slander American e-juice. If those debacles had happened in China, they'd be all over this thread. Chinese juice makers would all be tweakers and lazy bums who shipped 200mg nicotine with 58mg labels..

 

[Myk]

sailorman and elf, excellent responses, logical and well constructed.

Myk, as others have stated, you took all of our comments out of context and twisted them to ineffectively attempt to support your opinion that Chinese eliquid is not to be trusted, seeing as you stated you don't trust it. As you well know, my comments on the "fact" that a few US food processing companies caused illnesses due to their unclean enviornment was only to show the fallacy, of using the Chinese pet food problem as reason to call into question the safety of Chinese eliquid. Isolated instances, especially from a completely different industry, do not prove that all ingestable products from those countries are not safe. But you just cherry picked partial comments out of context to try and make a point.

More importantly, no where in all of your long posts did you provide any supporting facts that would lead a rational person to not trust Chinese eliquid. Yet the causual reader, especially a new person, since this is the new member section, could easily read your comments that you don't trust Chinese eliquid and think it must be a dangerous product. And then they learn that a vast majority of all eliquid comes out of China and now they could easily surmise that vaping in general is dangerous.

It's these kind of non-supported comments that we object to. If you can prove with facts that a specific product from a foreign country is not to be trusted, then do so. If you cannot, then statements that specific products from another country are not to be trusted would lead a logical person to believe that the person making that statement is, to some degree, xenophobic.

No, I effectively took your comments in context to show that somehow you think attacking US makers and those who don't trust Chinese liquid is how you should defend Chinese liquid.
Nobody is telling you not to trust Chinese liquid, they are saying that is their reasoning for avoiding it. You can brow beat those people on the internet all you want but that's not going to change their mind. You can raise doubt about US juice companies all you want on the internet and that's not going to change anyone's mind about Chinese juice.

I don't have to prove my reasoning for not trusting Chinese ingestibles to anyone unless I'm telling them to not trust China themselves.

I didn't cherry pick jack squat or take anything out of context. I gave the post numbers so anyone can go read. The only thing I could've done better was to give a link to this thread which you obviously don't need.

In all my long posts I have not told ANYONE to not trust Chinese ANYTHING. Learn to deal with people who don't think exactly like you do.
Anyone who was swayed by what I said has also been swayed to not trust US juice by what you have said.

AGAIN, I DO NOT HAVE TO GIVE A REASON WHY I DON'T TRUST CHINESE INGESTIBLES LET ALONE PROVE MY REASONING WITH FACTS. You are not my dictator.

FYI, look up xenophobia and come up with a word that actually fits not trusting a certain class of products from a certain country.
I typed this on a Japanese computer with my German dogs laying next to me while vaping on my Chinese e-cig while drinking a beer made with English grain. That's hardly xenophobia.

 

[Myk]

Nobody's pressuring anyone into anything. We're simply asking them to be rational and quit spreading fear, especially irrational fear, about Chinese juice or nicotine. We simply pointed out that it can't be that bad because it's so prevalent and people use it whether they know it or not. We made the point that even if they use juice that claims to be "sourced" in the U.S., it doesn't necessarily mean that they're not vaping chinese nic anyway.

I'm sorry if facts are inadequate to quell your fear. But you needn't spread it. I'm sorry that I didn't recognize I was debating whose position was grounded in an irrational fear. There is an old saying that you cannot reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

Since reason and rationality are the only things I have to work with, and neither are adequate tools for discourse with the irrational, I have no alternative than to stop it here. But please do not continue to misrepresent my position by filtering it through the lens of fear and defensiveness.

Everyone is not going to be rational. This is going to be especially prevalent with with smokers and ex-smokers, many who were likely self-medicating with nicotine.
Deal with it and get over it

Instead of trying to sway those irrational people to your way of thinking by raising doubt about the companies they do trust why don't you instead try to instill trust for the companies they don't trust?
All you have to say is that Dekang has been making juice for XX years without a problem. That would be a rational person's rational argument, not trying to raise doubt about American companies as your defense.
If your goal is actually to chase people out of vaping completely you're doing a good job with your present strategy.

Some of them will be hopeless like I am so for them just move on.

 

[sailorman]

......
Instead of trying to sway those irrational people to your way of thinking by raising doubt about the companies they do trust why don't you instead try to instill trust for the companies they don't trust?
All you have to say is that Dekang has been making juice for XX years without a problem. That would be a rational person's rational argument, not trying to raise doubt about American companies as your defense.
If your goal is actually to chase people out of vaping completely you're doing a good job with your present strategy.

Some of them will be hopeless like I am so for them just move on.

Please re-acquaint yourself with the title of this thread. Notice it doesn't say "Why do you risk your life vaping Chinese e-juice?"
It asks the question, "Do you vape juice from China or only from America?"
I read the question accurately, therefore I felt no obligation to defend or instill trust in China. That would not be the rational response.
Instead, I pointed out the simple and obvious fact that no matter what your answer to that question may be, there is a very good chance that you DO vape juice from China, in part or in whole. In effect, I was pointing out that the question is irrelevant. That entailed raising the fact that U.S. juice makers often use Chinese ingredients whether they advertise it or not. It also raised questions as to the meaning of the word "sourced", which I defined accurately. If you take that to be a smear on U.S. juice companies, that is your cross to bear. If that, to you, is raising doubts about American companies, then you have problems that should be addressed elsewhere, perhaps by professionals. Self-medicating is not the best course of action.

Participation in this thread was not restricted to discussion among, or between, hopeless people. I was not tasked with defending China, least of all to hopeless or irrational people.
My remarks were not directed toward the hopeless or the irrational. You decided to answer them of your own volition. So, from now on, assume my remarks are directed only at rational and reasonable people instead of you, and just move on.

 

[DC2]

It's just PG, VG, nicotine, and flavorings.
You'd have to make a serious effort to screw it up.

Because of this I don't worry about where it comes from.
Because of this I don't worry about if someone makes it in their bathtub.
Because of this I don't worry about if it has a hair stuck in the label, as posted in another thread.

A vendor would really have to have their head up their donkey to mess this stuff up in any significant way.
And that includes Chinese as well as American vendors.

 

[sailorman]

It's just PG, VG, nicotine, and flavorings.
You'd have to make a serious effort to screw it up.

Because of this I don't worry about where it comes from.
Because of this I don't worry about if someone makes it in their bathtub.
Because of this I don't worry about if it has a hair stuck in the label, as posted in another thread.

A vendor would really have to have their head up their donkey to mess this stuff up in any significant way.
And that includes Chinese as well as American vendors.

It might be possible to miscalculate the nicotine content, but to do it seriously enough to hurt someone would be hard because it would be very quickly detected. You could use really contaminated VG or PG, but what's the likelihood of that, unless the mixer was a psycho?

The guy I referenced in the earlier post left the whole shop to someone who had absolutely no idea of what she was doing, and the worst that happened was some people got ripped off and some people got bad tasting juice.

It's just not something to be overly concerned about. But, some people are prone to irrational fears. They probably shouldn't be vaping anything they didn't make themselves, from ingredients they didn't make themselves, in the first place.