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Yeah, as I said above, most of my reference material on the Provari's performance seems to no longer be available on the internet. They were on ECF's Provape sub-forum but since Provape went out of business that forum disappeared.
I would refer you to read the ECF thread The Rattlesnake Effect- Why the Cheapo VV [Exception Itaste MVP] Don't Vape the Same as a Provari or DNA20D
Oscelloscope wave form for the Vamo (jagged) 34 Hz.
Oxcelloscope wave form for the Provari (flat line) 800 Hz
The above images won't enlarge here, but if you go to the above link they will enlarge if you click on them.
Maybe you can find what you are looking for here: ProVari Not sure how much (if any) of the info Provape purged before it got archived, but you might get lucky
Yeah, as I said above, most of my reference material on the Provari's performance seems to no longer be available on the internet. They were on ECF's Provape sub-forum but since Provape went out of business that forum disappeared.
I would refer you to read the ECF thread The Rattlesnake Effect- Why the Cheapo VV [Exception Itaste MVP] Don't Vape the Same as a Provari or DNA20D
Oscelloscope wave form for the Vamo (jagged) 34 Hz.
Oxcelloscope wave form for the Provari (flat line) 800 Hz
The above images won't enlarge here, but if you go to the above link they will enlarge if you click on them.
Don’t know who coined the term “rattlesnake” and what frequency is required for a device to be labeled as such. 33hz as shown in your link is quite broad and in comparison to 800hz I would subjectively say this could be detected. But PWM is nothing new, was developed as far back as the 60’s so nothing ground braking here. The 33hz scope looks clean, and well implemented – just the wrong frequency for this particular application.
Thanks for that link. I only went 10 pages into the archive, but maybe this thread will discuss about the Provari on an oscelloscope.Maybe you can find what you are looking for here: ProVari Not sure how much (if any) of the info Provape purged before it got archived, but you might get lucky
Provari on an Oscope vs Vamo
@Punk In Drublic , you also might want to read this article by PBusardo:
THE VAPEBRAIN ECD METER
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I have no idea what that rant was for, mainly.
I have some provaris, I like them, I am NOT a high wattage vaper, but they're reliable, they work for my needs, and they're super pleasant. I also don't consider them to be the be all and end all of vaping. I enjoy a WIDE variety of vape offerings in my world, including other DNA devices, non DNA devices that I consider almost as good or equal to my other vapes, they come in all shapes and sizes, I even own a squonk mod.
I don't consider my provaris anything other than excellent vapes. I am quite sure I would enjoy a Dicodes mod and I have more things for my list. But there is nothing wrong with them and a great deal right, for non TC MTL vapers. It really is pretty simple. My procyons can output 50 watts should I ever need them to, not that I need OR want them to.
Quite frankly, I don't get your beef, my biggest annoyance is that they went out of business honestly, and based on the FDA from most of what I hear, or Zen would have bought them out. So, if anything it's an example of how the government HALTED an innovative American company to be frank.
I don't sit around moaning how YOUR sub0hm 3 battery DNA mod SUCKS, and I'm not going to be buying any triad devices, but I'm going to bet that I have at least ONE devices considered "state of the art" and using technology I actually don't so much NEED.
It just came off rather defensive. I'm never going to say a provari is the best vape at ALL. But, they're also not the WORST and what they do, they do well.
We are getting close to antique though, given repairs are hard to obtain. I won't be buying any MORE mostly for that reason alone though.
Anna
I have some provaris, I like them, I am NOT a high wattage vaper, but they're reliable, they work for my needs, and they're super pleasant. I also don't consider them to be the be all and end all of vaping. I enjoy a WIDE variety of vape offerings in my world, including other DNA devices, non DNA devices that I consider almost as good or equal to my other vapes, they come in all shapes and sizes, I even own a squonk mod.
I don't consider my provaris anything other than excellent vapes. I am quite sure I would enjoy a Dicodes mod and I have more things for my list. But there is nothing wrong with them and a great deal right, for non TC MTL vapers. It really is pretty simple. My procyons can output 50 watts should I ever need them to, not that I need OR want them to.
Quite frankly, I don't get your beef, my biggest annoyance is that they went out of business honestly, and based on the FDA from most of what I hear, or Zen would have bought them out. So, if anything it's an example of how the government HALTED an innovative American company to be frank.
I don't sit around moaning how YOUR sub0hm 3 battery DNA mod SUCKS, and I'm not going to be buying any triad devices, but I'm going to bet that I have at least ONE devices considered "state of the art" and using technology I actually don't so much NEED.
It just came off rather defensive. I'm never going to say a provari is the best vape at ALL. But, they're also not the WORST and what they do, they do well.
We are getting close to antique though, given repairs are hard to obtain. I won't be buying any MORE mostly for that reason alone though.
Anna
Due to mineral depletion of today's soil, mass use of pesticides, and long haul delivery systems, the apples my grandpa ate were much juicier and healthier.
Nothing like a good old hand picked apple with a couple cigarettes for lunch.
Exactly, Anna. A few years ago, when there were not that many mods that did vape all that well, the Provari ranked among the top three that actually did vape extremely well. The Provari (VV regulated mod), the Evolv Darwin (the first VW regulated mod), and the Reo (mechanical mod) were considered the elite at the time.
Provape focused on a niche group of vapers (tootle puffers), and was criticised for doing so. I was (and am still) a huge supporter of the Provari. The fact that I no longer use mine because my style of vaping changed doesn't affect my opinion of the Provari.
I agree this debate has turned side ways so I will respectfully drop out of the discussion.
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I remember my first month or so on this forum, and I scoffed at reviewers discussing how well a mod vaped. I even said, 10W is 10W. I was immediately and properly corrected. I really hadn't thought it through, and should have known better having worked in lighting energy efficiency. I'm not an engineer by any means, but do grasp the concepts. Even so, I was still skeptical that the differences could be felt and tasted in vaping, especially at high wattage. A year and a half later, I only have about half a dozen mods- I use only 1 type of tank, built exactly the same way, and keep 3-4 at a time going. And they're all very different in vape quality at 8.5W on .58ohm.
But what's odd is that although I really love my DNA75 for a variety of reasons, two of my cheapest mods can sometimes deliver the most satisfying vapes - the Nugget X and a mod I otherwise hate - a Hugo Urus won in a contest. I don't know if it's ramp-up, frequency, or what. Their performance may not look pretty on the oscilloscope, but they somehow do a pretty good job at delivering a vape with great throat hit.
The way I look at it, it's kind of like listening to an mp3 vs. vinyl. Overall the song sounds mostly the same. But there are definitely differences. And even though vinyl gives much more detail and "warmth", some may actually prefer the simpler clarity of an mp3, inferior or not. (kind of a backward example - I prefer vinyl!)
But what's odd is that although I really love my DNA75 for a variety of reasons, two of my cheapest mods can sometimes deliver the most satisfying vapes - the Nugget X and a mod I otherwise hate - a Hugo Urus won in a contest. I don't know if it's ramp-up, frequency, or what. Their performance may not look pretty on the oscilloscope, but they somehow do a pretty good job at delivering a vape with great throat hit.
The way I look at it, it's kind of like listening to an mp3 vs. vinyl. Overall the song sounds mostly the same. But there are definitely differences. And even though vinyl gives much more detail and "warmth", some may actually prefer the simpler clarity of an mp3, inferior or not. (kind of a backward example - I prefer vinyl!)
@Brewdawg1181 – being an audio enthusiast, I cringe when I see vinyl being compared to MP3. But I do understand your analogy.
Objective measurements can only demonstrate why one may prefer one item over another. When it comes to vaping, the end result is always subjective. I purposely removed the names of the devices under test from my earlier post simple because I wanted to demonstrate that there is a difference in output and did not want to start a controversial debate over which is better.
@pvarck31 – if you care to share the devices you compared, we can look for objective measurements which could demonstrate why you subjectively preferred one over the other.
Objective measurements can only demonstrate why one may prefer one item over another. When it comes to vaping, the end result is always subjective. I purposely removed the names of the devices under test from my earlier post simple because I wanted to demonstrate that there is a difference in output and did not want to start a controversial debate over which is better.
@pvarck31 – if you care to share the devices you compared, we can look for objective measurements which could demonstrate why you subjectively preferred one over the other.
Thx for the link. PBusardo write up on the ECD meter is somewhat informative, but filled with broken links so no real info on the device. Was that a ECD meter that PBusardo was using in the first video you posted? The large black box attached to the mod that allowed a atomizer to be attached?
Could you explain the difference between 12ms and 32ms? What I mean is, in that 20ms extra delay, how much would I really feel it?
For example, a car running at 3000RPM would be able to do 1 rotation over the course of that delay.
I don't know if it's because i'm daft, dumb, or dying; but i've never felt a difference between any mod i've owned when it comes to firing time. I need to know how much i'm missing out on.
When I play video games sometimes my ping is 80 or even 90ms, and it's still low enough for everything to feel instant. Is the 20ms difference in the graphs you linked the same as 20ms more in a video game?
Seems like normal reaction time to visual stimulus is 250ms. My ignorant opinion at this time is that 20ms is not going to make a difference that we can actually perceive. At least objectively.
I agree that the fire time of 12ms vs 32ms is impossible for a human to detect. But that is not what I was trying to demonstrate. Look at the difference between the 2 lines – the top is very jagged where the bottom is smooth. The top is telling me the device is struggling to maintain a constant output, where as the bottom is able to pull this off with ease. Now whether that is detectible is subjective but it does demonstrate there is a difference.
I'm guessing that in something like a Hexohm, a PWM mod, what we would see is spikes at the batteries max voltage output and then it would drop back down very low so that it averages out at the selected voltage. Is this right?
If it is, it would mean the waves would be a lot more irregular (or more jagged with greater peaks and drops) than what you have shown for the non-flat line?
In a mech that line would be perfectly flat, but on a downward angle as the voltage decreases, right?
That is correct. PWM should mimic a square wave. Below is a PWM signal where you can see it’s applied voltage (peak) and drop voltage. You can also see how it’s cycle changes by how far the peaks separate closer to the end of measurement. The measurement is of low resolution so we cannot see how accurate the PWM signal is.
A mec should have a flat but steady drop in signal as the battery drains.
A mec should have a flat but steady drop in signal as the battery drains.
I could be wrong here (it's happened): It could just be that some people are more sensitive than others to stuff like that, but I'm guessing it's not so much that. I've done dtl with high watts/low ohms, high volume of juice, and I don't think there's any way I could detect minor differences when doing that. I think any nuance would be lost the higher I go in volume/wattage. It just becomes like p*ss in the ocean. Just like feeling a 1% difference in something that's set at volume 1 vs. 1% of something set at volume 10.
Just my $0.02, and now all the super duper sub-ohmers can yell at me for calling them insensitive, and tell me how they can tell every minor difference in equipment! (which they might)
There will be a point at which one will be able to detect the firing time assuming the coil is not influencing the outcome.
Vaporesso, as an example, is known to have an extremely quick firing time. DNA is known to have a slow firing time in comparison. We can see this through objective measurements and I believe the DNA is slow enough to humanly detect. Or at least I have been able to detect. But the delay in firing time is not the only factor. A delay could just be latency…press a button and the device doesn’t react until half a second later. Or a delay could be how the device ramps up the power to the users prescribed output.
In the case of Vaporesso, at least with the Polar mod, it applies a higher output at the time the button is pressed for ~0.5 secs, then drops to the users set output. This can be perceived as a very quick firing time and subjectively, some will prefer it, some may not. DJLsb’s measurements shows the DNA75C has a latency of ~50ms before it starts to ramp up the power reaching the prescribed output 100ms later. So one device over shoots it’s output almost instantly, another suffers from slight latency and ramps up its output within a short period of time. There are pro’s and cons to both methods and subjectively there will be users who prefer one method over another.
Vaporesso, as an example, is known to have an extremely quick firing time. DNA is known to have a slow firing time in comparison. We can see this through objective measurements and I believe the DNA is slow enough to humanly detect. Or at least I have been able to detect. But the delay in firing time is not the only factor. A delay could just be latency…press a button and the device doesn’t react until half a second later. Or a delay could be how the device ramps up the power to the users prescribed output.
In the case of Vaporesso, at least with the Polar mod, it applies a higher output at the time the button is pressed for ~0.5 secs, then drops to the users set output. This can be perceived as a very quick firing time and subjectively, some will prefer it, some may not. DJLsb’s measurements shows the DNA75C has a latency of ~50ms before it starts to ramp up the power reaching the prescribed output 100ms later. So one device over shoots it’s output almost instantly, another suffers from slight latency and ramps up its output within a short period of time. There are pro’s and cons to both methods and subjectively there will be users who prefer one method over another.
I guess I'm one of those that cannot detect these differences being discussed here. I have 10 rta set ups and vape everyone during the week, all in power mode, all between 20 and 24 watts and all basically the same resistance. my mods aren't all the same, I have yihi's, dna's, starplatt, aspire, etc . Currently Im vaping 7 different juices and have been vaping these juices for a long time and constantly taking a tank from this mod and putting it on another, so I have tasted every juice on every mod I own and I cannot detect any difference from mod to mod. Perhaps a few fire slightly faster, but it doesn't effect flavor . Even going from 20 to 24 watts, I cannot detect , aside from being a bit faster, a difference in flavor. Perhaps it's just me, but at least with my particular mods and slightly different wattages, they all taste the same. Perhaps it's because I'm such a good builder, and subconsciously when I rebuild, I slightly tweak each coil to make up the differences for each mod.
hmmm, where did you get we were discussing flavor? I don't think that has been brought up in the discussion. Just curious.I guess I'm one of those that cannot detect these differences being discussed here. I have 10 rta set ups and vape everyone during the week, all in power mode, all between 20 and 24 watts and all basically the same resistance. my mods aren't all the same, I have yihi's, dna's, starplatt, aspire, etc . Currently Im vaping 7 different juices and have been vaping these juices for a long time and constantly taking a tank from this mod and putting it on another, so I have tasted every juice on every mod I own and I cannot detect any difference from mod to mod. Perhaps a few fire slightly faster, but it doesn't effect flavor . Even going from 20 to 24 watts, I cannot detect , aside from being a bit faster, a difference in flavor. Perhaps it's just me, but at least with my particular mods and slightly different wattages, they all taste the same. Perhaps it's because I'm such a good builder, and subconsciously when I rebuild, I slightly tweak each coil to make up the differences for each mod.
Right. Flavor and "vapes smooth" are two different things. The vapes smooth description is hard to describe, ... the oppositie of harsh, and not all people will understand the difference. It is subtle.
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