Drop the Entitled Attitude

[corruption42]

Sometimes arguments from agreement are more difficult than those arising from disagreement.

So true... and I wish it wasn't such the case -- and written word has a tendency to be interpretive vs dictation... when someone's heated already, they tend to hear things that way. I wish that healthy debate was a bit more healthy these days -- I think the world would agree on a lot more topics than they think they do if it wasn't such a plane of extremes.

I pretty much agree with everything else you state -- I just add that common courtesy is a personal choice, and that the same courtesy I afforded non-smokers as a smoker, I follow over to the vaping world. Thats pretty much as far as I feel any sort of outright ban should go -- a personal choice by a responsible adult.

 

[Tanti]

I went back to try to find where I found that and couldnt. Im not sure how it became vapor.
I wish I had a link to the study that the German scientist are doing with the vapor and heart.
Heart cells in one of the tests were at over 100% after being exposed to consintrated PV vapor.
The other test the cells were at 75%, in other words the first one they grew and the second they lost about 25% of cells.

and then there was this

 

[corruption42]

Tanti: Please do pass along any studies you come across -- always glad to see something else come out, whether trial level or clinical level.

 

[Tanti]

However, this only means that the FDA has approved a specific means of vaporization or atomization for a certain duration of treatment... plenty of things with awful side effects gain FDA approval specifically for short-term use. Not that that is the case with PG, BUT I would suggest that the FDA has not been presented evidence to support the long-term use of PG vaporized at different temperatures, as others in this thread have more eloquently suggested.

Also, wow, this thread got juicy! Thanks to everyone for a scintillating dialogue!

I wish I had bookmarked it when I found it, im not sure if it was by heating the PG or not now.

There is an other study being done by German researchers right now, concentrating vapor and putting it on heart cells from rats. The tobacco smoke killed a good part of the cells, where the one test from vapor the cells grew and were at 100% +. and in an other test there was just a slight loss of cells from vapor.
Then there is this, its interesting if you havent read it yet. Its like a puzzle that you can start putting to geather with all the bits of info and studies that have been done even if they were small studys.

Latest Studies Confirm E-Cigarette Vapor Safety

 

[Abe_Katz]

So true... and I wish it wasn't such the case -- and written word has a tendency to be interpretive vs dictation... when someone's heated already, they tend to hear things that way. I wish that healthy debate was a bit more healthy these days -- I think the world would agree on a lot more topics than they think they do if it wasn't such a plane of extremes.

I pretty much agree with everything else you state -- I just add that common courtesy is a personal choice, and that the same courtesy I afforded non-smokers as a smoker, I follow over to the vaping world. Thats pretty much as far as I feel any sort of outright ban should go -- a personal choice by a responsible adult.

I think that the main problem that we face is moral perceptions revolving around tobacco in particular. In "Abe's Rational Utopia" moral perceptions would have no place in law or medical issues (such as tobacco use) but rather on known cause and effects (such as prohibition leading to black markets and crime). Unfortunately "Abe's Rational Utopia" does not exist. Essentially we have a war between two extremes, the "extreme of I'm an adult and will do as I want and to hades with everyone else" and the extreme of "ZOMG a nicotine user stone him/her".

Honestly I find the situation aggravating.

As to the common courtesy thing, yes I offer it. I do it because I was raised that way. I do not consider common courtesy to be old fashioned (which is why I generally do not vape in restaurants--my most common non-work social setting). Other people are trying to eat, and though I cannot smell my blueberry pie vape (though Mrs Katz says she can, but doesn't find it offensive) other people might be able to and it could put them off their food.

The problem I see in this country primarily (and this relates to not only vaping but many other issues) is we have basically three camps of people. One camp wishes to be irresponsible without any consequences, and another group wants the government to be responsible for everyone but only in ways they agree with, the final camp wishes the other two would shut up.

Personally I think the government should not be in the business of legislating morality. Its job is providing for the common safety and welfare of the population (using reason and science to achieve this rather than any moral prescription), to maintain social order, and protect individual liberties.

It is a balance and the tendency for the first two camps to be far louder than the majority third camp doesn't help in a democratic republic.

 

[Tanti]

Sorry wasnt a German researchers it was a Greek researcher. here is the video that came out at the beginning of this month.

Vaping News: Seeing the effects of Tobacco Smoke and Ecig Vapor on Heart Cells - YouTube

 

[thejeff]

Abe: Despite any differences in the semantics of how we put it, at the end of the day, I think you, jeff and myself are all saying the same thing -- the raw data is still out; but it doesn't stop us. It then just comes down to perspective on how to deal with it, and for the most part I agree with your opinion.

"One of the more heated agreements I've had." -quote from a friend of mine, after we stopped shouting over one another, lol

 

[_more_]

Fog machines use heat and the FDA isn't trying to stop people from using or having them. I know it is not the same as inhaling but it is 2nd hand inhalation but without the flavors and nic. Also they have the food industry using vapor flavorings for people to taste and i haven't read anything about the FDA getting involved. It is because of the nicotine in the juice...

btw i do agree people should not feel entitled to vape anywhere but should respect the rules of establishments they are going to and if you gotta vape do it stealth style, imo

 

[kiwivap]

Latest Studies Confirm E-Cigarette Vapor Safety

Abstract of Comparison of the effects of e-cigarette vapor and cigarette smoke on indoor air quality

 

[Ken_A]

I personally research the heck out of anything that catches my intrest, and Vaping caught my intrest.
Personal preference -
an e-cig is a cig-alike.
a PV is a device that looks nothing like a cigarette.

I tell people I'm using a PV. If they look confused, I tell them that it is sort of like an e-cigarette. I take the time to educate them and as long as I'm not a ..... about it, they are willing to listen.
I am polite about my vaping. I don't vape in restaurants, but I do put my PV on the table where anyone can see it. I vape at my desk at work, although I have not asked management if it is ok... and I have a fan pointed down and I only do so occationally. I vape in the corridor in the mall, but not in any store anywhere. I vape outside and in my home.


I urge everyone to read up about the ingredients in your e-liquid so you can be well informed. This will allow us to educate the general public from the bottom up. Here are some very good quotes. Not sure if we are supposed to break the links to these or not, so I did


someone asked for the results of the air test:
http://
informahealthcare.
com/doi/abs/10.3109/08958378.2012.724728

Conclusions: For all byproducts measured, electronic cigarettes produce very small exposures relative to tobacco cigarettes. The study indicates no apparent risk to human health from e-cigarette emissions based on the compounds analyzed.

Propoline Glycol
http://
www.
dow.
com/productsafety/finder/prog.htm#ProdUses

USP/EP grade:
Solvent in the flavor concentrate and fragrance industry, an excipient in elixirs and pharmaceuticals, and a coupling agent in sunscreens, shampoos, shaving creams and other personal care products
Wetting agent for natural gums to simplify compounding
Humectant, preservative and stabilizer in diverse applications.

vegetable glycerin
http://
glycerin-glycerol.
com/vegetable-glycerin/

Its low glycemic index and its high sweetening power advocated the benefits of this substance and convinced American Dietetic Association to include it on the “safe” list.
...
The cosmetic industry uses vegetable glycerin on large scale for its humectant properties, its mild action on sensitive skin as well as due to its solubility in alcohol and water, which makes it extremely easy to handle and combine.
...
A large variety of acne remedies and anti-acne products feature vegetable glycerin in their composition. Psoriasis and eczema creams and ointments are also rich in vegetable glycerin.

This next one has some badly worded information, but it's from 2007
nicotine
http://
www.
wired.
com/science/discoveries/news/2007/06/nicotine

Smoking may be bad for you, but researchers and biotech companies are quietly developing pharmaceuticals that are decidedly good for brains, bowels, blood vessels and even immune systems -- and they're inspired by tobacco's deadly active ingredient: nicotine.
...
"Nicotine is highly stigmatized -- and for good reason, because the delivery system is so deadly," says Don deBethizy, CEO of Targacept. "But the drug itself and the research generated by studying its effects on the brain both show great promise for helping us improve our physical and mental health."

 

[zapped]

I dont think people who vape openly in public have an an entitled attitude at all. What they do have is an enlightened one. Hiding vaping and being relegated to some dark, nasty smelly corner like a smoker is the surest way to get treated like one.

Regardless of the scientific evidence that the op calls for in this thread, it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out that vaping is a better alternative than smoking. If you can accept that (and I think most reasonable people without another agenda can) then you can see why there shouldnt be any association between the two.

I'll continue to vape openly and proudly wherever I damn well please since Im not doing anything wrong. The more people that see us vaping and that take the time to learn about it from a source other than the FDA the better off we all are.

 

[GrimRep_er]

This thread has been brought to you by the word ubiquitous.

and the number 13...AHH AHH Ahh!

 

[tj99959]

I dont think people who vape openly in public have an an entitled attitude at all. What they do have is an enlightened one. Hiding vaping and being relegated to some dark, nasty smelly corner like a smoker is the surest way to get treated like one.

Regardless of the scientific evidence that the op calls for in this thread, it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out that vaping is a better alternative than smoking. If you can accept that (and I think most reasonable people without another agenda can) then you can see why there shouldnt be any association between the two.

I'll continue to vape openly and proudly wherever I damn well please since Im not doing anything wrong. The more people that see us vaping and that take the time to learn about it from a source other than the FDA the better off we all are.

Yes it's a better alternative for the person that smokes, but what is the better alternative for the person that doesn't? This discussion has to be about what the non smoker wants as it is what the person that vapes wants.

 

[zapped]

Yes it's a better alternative for the person that smokes, but what is the better alternative for the person that doesn't? This discussion has to be about what the non smoker wants as it is what the person that vapes wants.

To date I've only had one non-smoker get upset about my using an electronic cigarette. Ive had a few funny looks from people but once I take the time to educate them and explain what the chemicals are and how it works Ive been met with extremely positive acceptance from smokers and non-smokers alike.

I somehow doubt that would be the case if a non-smoker only saw us hanging out in the smoking section.

I do on occasion because I enjoy the conversation and partly because I dont want to be one of 'those" ex-smokers but in all honesty, the longer I'm smoke free the harder its becoming because I cant stand the smell anymore.

That brings up another interesting question: Knowing the health risks associated with smoking and second hand smoke, why would another vaper advocate that we expose ourselves to that on a constant basis by intimating that if we do otherwise were just entitled?

Either someone is just plain misinformed or Im beginning to smell a rat.

 

[rolygate]

There have been two room air quality trials on ecig vapor so far. Neither could find measurable amounts of anything in the room-size chamber they used. One found nothing they could measure, the other found traces that were not reliably quantifiable. As a result they both changed to using a small container for the exhaled air tests, one of them was a 10 litre container IIRC.

They found measurable quantities of compounds when vapor was basically exhaled direct into their test equipment, but not in free airspace in a room-size chamber (10m2 I think). This infers that solids quickly deposit out of the vapor; and that to get any 2nd hand materials you need to be kissing the vaper on exhale. This is a cheap way of vaping but better results are obtained by buying your own supplies.

One study was an 'open' one where they just reported the results, the other was funded by the antis, so they buried the fact they found nothing measurable in the room air deep in the small print and instead used results taken from measurement of direct-exhale vapor. (Then of course published a lurid PR implying ecig vapor is dangerously toxic, as per normal.)

As regards the quantity of nicotine you would be able to breathe in from room air where a vaper was situated, it would result in an increase of your blood plasma nicotine level between ten million times and one million times lower than the detectable level already present from your normal dietary consumption of nicotine. This is my personal estimation based on about as much scientific evidence as is usually present in any report by Glantz, Hahn, Gratziou or any other pharma pimp / loony toon.



Refs: seen elsewhere on ECF, in CASAA resources, etc.

 

[Ansah]

I have an entitled attitude because I am entitled. I can do anything I want unless you can make a compelling argument that that what I'm doing somehow interferes with or tramples on your right to do what you want. There is no onus on me to "prove" that what I'm doing should be acceptable to you. How I choose to live is not a subject that will be vetted and scrutinized for your approval. The pervasive, ever-growing tendency to monitor, regulate, proscribe and control the personal choices people make needs to be seen as the neofascist oppression that it is, and it needs to be resisted.

 

[gthompson]

I have an entitled attitude because I am entitled. I can do anything I want unless you can make a compelling argument that that what I'm doing somehow interferes with or tramples on your right to do what you want. There is no onus on me to "prove" that what I'm doing should be acceptable to you. How I choose to live is not a subject that will be vetted and scrutinized for your approval. The pervasive, ever-growing tendency to monitor, regulate, proscribe and control the personal choices people make needs to be seen as the neofascist oppression that it is, and it needs to be resisted.

If you choose to live in a society of your fellow man, you need to understand you don't have the "right to do what you want". Your rights end where mine begin.

 

[Ansah]

If you choose to live in a society of your fellow man, you need to understand you don't have the "right to do what you want". Your rights end where mine begin.

Which is exactly what I said... My rights do indeed end where your rights begin. But they do NOT end simply because you subjectively disapprove of, disagree with, or otherwise have a negative impression of what I am doing.

 

[zapped]

Which is exactly what I said... My rights do indeed end where your rights begin. But they do NOT end simply because you subjectively disapprove of, disagree with, or otherwise have a negative impression what I am doing.

He has a point. Someone might not like it if they see two people kissing in public but they certainly have that right. If Im one of the people doing the kissing Im not necessarily going to stop because it offends some old ladies sensibilities either.


Anti-smokers are used to trampling all over smokers rights because society has conditioned people that its a bad thing .I think that by now even most smokers would agree and that's why they don't offer much opposition to people crossing that line.

As vapers and ex-smokers its hard for some to fight that conditioning or to even know where the line is anymore. The difference here is that we're not doing anything wrong. We're doing something positive and healthy in our lives, no ones suffering from second hand vapor (see Rolys post above) and no one should be getting offended. That they are is only a reaction to something that bears a passing resemblance to smoking and is based on feelings instead of actual facts

Thats their issue not mine. They can choose to remain ignorant (some will despite our best efforts) but I wont be made to suffer for it or give them any ground. Doing so lends credence to a reaction that has none otherwise.

 

[Caridwen]

Moved to vaping in public with like threads.