Dual battery mod for super low ohms builds?

[Barruel]

Hi.

I've been off the bleeding edge stuff on the vaping world for a year and a half or so. Now I've seen some seductive new toys and I'm about to renew my gear. I'm confused about a few things.

If I've been off new things for a while is partly because I found my sweet spot gear wise. I have loads of mods and RDAs, but for some months I've been using my iStick Pico 75W (actually my 3 Picos) with my Hadaly RDA (actually my 3 Hadalys) almost exclusively. Sometimes I also rotate them with a couple of VTC Minis and some NarDas, O-Attys and any of the numerous Derringers I have around, but it is mostly Picos with Hadalys for me.

Coil wise, I usually build TC capable SS spaced clapton coils which, depending on the diameter of the coils, sit up around high 0.4-mid 0.7 ohms. Because of the high mAh (~3500), these are driven by NCR18650GA Sanyo batteries, which are rated at 10A discharge and handle my coils just fine. I have some old blue Samsung 25Rs, but i like the Sanyos better because of the autonomy.

Now I've seen the Profile RDA and I want to vape on that. Problem is that a typical mesh build with it gives very low resistances and I don't know if my Picos and Sanyos can handle them.

Apparently, the RDA comes with some kanthal 0.18 ohm mesh pieces. I would like to use TC, so I should use SS mesh, which will get me to coils even lower than that, maybe around 0.1 ohms. I know that regulated mods are not necessarily a death trap with such low ohms, but my common sense warns me against using my Sanyos with such low resistance coils, specially because the mesh coils should be fired at around 50-60W, which is more demanding for batteries than are just a tad below their limit at my usual 0.4 ohms/35-40W.

So I'm a bit lost. I see 2 possible scenarios for me, and I don't know if any of them is realistic.

1. Get better batteries and stick with my Picos. Can batteries like the 30Qs, HG2s and VTC6s handle 0.1 ohms coils at 60W in a regulated mod like the Pico?
2. Get a dual or triple battery mod and keep using my high mAh/not so high discharge rate batteries.

Because ArcticFox and design, I like the eVic Primo 2.0, which is a 2x18650 mod, but there is plenty of stuff out there to chose from. Question is: will a dual battery mod allow me to keep using my Sanyos with resistances as low as 0.1 ohms. How do these mods combine the batteries? I understand that they parallel them instead of serializing them and that it should help with the amps, but I have no idea.

Help, plox!

 

[diagrammatiks]

I’ll tell you right now with the profile you are probably going to want to squonk.

You can drip on it but you’ll want to drip right through the driptip. If that’s how you are used to dripping then no problem.

In the tc ss coils it shouldn’t really be a problem. But you will want a bit more wattage then what you are used to so you’ll probably want at least 20a batteries.

Fasttech has some 400 to 500 grade mesh that will ohm out to .25-.275 but you’ll sacrifice some flavor compared to the included perforated sheet.

 

[asmcriminal]

I am kind of confused. YOu're talking about a regulated device(the pico) then you mention a mech(not a death trap). What will you be vaping that mesh on? A mech or a regulated device? Is it single or dual battery?

 

[sonicbomb]

With a regulated mod as long as the resistance is within the preset range of the chipset the coil resistance has no bearing on the amperage use. It is the selected wattage and the remaining voltage in the battery/s that dictates the amp draw from the batteries. Calculate what the maximum amp draw is when the battery/s are discharged and then choose batteries that have a CDR higher than that value.

Ohms/Watts Law - Calculating safe amp usage | E-Cigarette Forum
Understanding the relationship between power and coil resistance | E-Cigarette Forum
Understanding Battery Capability/Capacity | E-Cigarette Forum

Having said that very low resistance coils will generally be large and consist of a lot of wire, meaning they will require a lot of power to bring up to temperature. This in turn is going to probably mean pulling more amps from the batteries.

Sanyo NCR18650GA 10A 3300mAh 18650 Bench Retest Results...a great 10A battery

1. Get better batteries and stick with my Picos. Can batteries like the 30Qs, HG2s and VTC6s handle 0.1 ohms coils at 60W in a regulated mod like the Pico?
Your Sanyo is good for 30 watts so yes batteries with a higher CDR will be required for higher wattages.
The three batteries you listed are good temperature dependent 20 amp batteries, so yes this gives you a 60 watt limit. Have a read of the individual reports from Mooch's blog.
List of Battery Tests | E-Cigarette Forum

2. Get a dual or triple battery mod and keep using my high mAh/not so high discharge rate batteries.
If you are regularly vaping at around 60 watts then a dual battery mod would be a good choice. Your Sanyos and high other mAh capacity 18650s suffer from high internal resistance, meaning that unless you are using a very low level you are better off with one of the 20 amp 300 mAh batteries you mentioned above.

 

[stols001]

I agree with Baditude, but then I usually do, he knows his batteries and ohms and wattages and how to combine them.

You aren't going to get the performance you want from the mods you have, honestly.

Also, you are going from very moderate resistance to sort of super low resistance. Unless you have tried these coils and tank belonging to someone else already I might maybe not go super hog wild regarding your equipment. I mean, order two batteries, not twelve, so you can rotate them. There's nothing wrong with another mod and some different batteries that may be able to output a little more power and etc., than your current setups I mean you can still use the mod, and just get better battery life etc.

You seem fairly decisive about this next step and etc., so I'm going to kind of assume you've tried it, but if you haven't well, mesh and super low wattage is kind of a different beast so this is a more "just in case" post, I guess.

Anna

 

[Barruel]

I’ll tell you right now with the profile you are probably going to want to squonk.

You can drip on it but you’ll want to drip right through the driptip. If that’s how you are used to dripping then no problem.

Not going to squonk. I always drip through the drip tip except when I prime the coil, so it's ok.

In the tc ss coils it shouldn’t really be a problem. But you will want a bit more wattage then what you are used to so you’ll probably want at least 20a batteries.

Yep. There seems to be a general consensus about the batteries around here. I already have 4 30Qs on the way to me. I'll purchase more in the near future.

Fasttech has some 400 to 500 grade mesh that will ohm out to .25-.275 but you’ll sacrifice some flavor compared to the included perforated sheet.

I ordered a Vandy Vape spoon of 200 grade SS mesh. That was the reason I posted initially. I picked that grade precisely because every source I checked said it was better for flavor.

I am kind of confused. YOu're talking about a regulated device(the pico) then you mention a mech(not a death trap). What will you be vaping that mesh on? A mech or a regulated device? Is it single or dual battery?

I have not used a mechanical mod since the days of the Nemesis and the Kayfun. Maybe since 2014. I just tried to say that I know that regulated mods are not as dangerous as mechanical mods when paired with very low resistances.

With a regulated mod as long as the resistance is within the preset range of the chipset the coil resistance has no bearing on the amperage use. It is the selected wattage and the remaining voltage in the battery/s that dictates the amp draw from the batteries. Calculate what the maximum amp draw is when the battery/s are discharged and then choose batteries that have a CDR higher than that value.

Having said that very low resistance coils will generally be large and consist of a lot of wire, meaning they will require a lot of power to bring up to temperature. This in turn is going to probably mean pulling more amps from the batteries.

1. Get better batteries and stick with my Picos. Can batteries like the 30Qs, HG2s and VTC6s handle 0.1 ohms coils at 60W in a regulated mod like the Pico?
Your Sanyo is good for 30 watts so yes batteries with a higher CDR will be required for higher wattages.
The three batteries you listed are good temperature dependent 20 amp batteries, so yes this gives you a 60 watt limit.

Thanks. Very informative post. This means that I should get batteries that can deliver more power and that my Sanyos won't be able to deliver the power that such low coil demands, right?

2. Get a dual or triple battery mod and keep using my high mAh/not so high discharge rate batteries.

If you are regularly vaping at around 60 watts then a dual battery mod would be a good choice. Your Sanyos and high other mAh capacity 18650s suffer from high internal resistance, meaning that unless you are using a very low level you are better off with one of the 20 amp 300 mAh batteries you mentioned above.

So even with a dual battery mod the Sanyos won't be powerful enough to drive the mesh. I should get both new batteries and a dual battery mod, right? I ordered the Primo 2.0 a few minutes after sending the OP. Hope it's OK.

You aren't going to get the performance you want from the mods you have, honestly.

Also, you are going from very moderate resistance to sort of super low resistance. Unless you have tried these coils and tank belonging to someone else already I might maybe not go super hog wild regarding your equipment. I mean, order two batteries, not twelve, so you can rotate them. There's nothing wrong with another mod and some different batteries that may be able to output a little more power and etc., than your current setups I mean you can still use the mod, and just get better battery life etc.

Yep. It seems that I must upgrade both my batteries and my mods.

You seem fairly decisive about this next step and etc., so I'm going to kind of assume you've tried it, but if you haven't well, mesh and super low wattage is kind of a different beast so this is a more "just in case" post, I guess

No. I have not tried it. My experience with low resistances comes from the time when TC was in its infantry and there was just Ni200 wire. The typical 5-6 wraps with 32ga wire resulted in ohms in the 0.15-0.20 range. I didn't insisted very much on making it work, but it was not because of the low ohms but because the Ni200 wire was very soft and it was a nightmare to work with.

 

[Barruel]

If you are regularly vaping at around 60 watts then a dual battery mod would be a good choice. Your Sanyos and high other mAh capacity 18650s suffer from high internal resistance, meaning that unless you are using a very low level you are better off with one of the 20 amp 300 mAh batteries you mentioned above.

It seems clear to me that 2 Sanyos won't deliver enough power to handle a 0.1 ohm mesh. According to any of the Ohm's law calculators on the internet, applying 60W to a 0.1 ohms coil will require around 25 amps from the battery. Does this mean 3 Sanyos (on a triple battery mod) will do it? It will be 10A x 3. Am I correct assuming these numbers? Does it work that way?

 

[diagrammatiks]

200 grade ss is what I use. On the profile it will ohm out to .12-14 depending on how long you cut the mesh. The benefit of using the strips is that you can cut it longer or shorter to fine time your vape.

Now you’ll only have to upgrade your mod if the Pico won’t fire that low.

The batteries will need to be changed. Though. The Sanyos are 3300ma. A vtc6a will work for 60 Watts and you only trade off about 400mah.

Honestly you don’t really need a triple battery mod for the profile unless you are concerned about the battery life. If the Pico will fire down to .1 it will be fine with a battery change.

The other option if you are going to upgrade anyway is to grab a 21700 mod. My profile lasts an entire work day with a single 40t 21700 at around 50 Watts.

Also, on a regulated mod the batteries don’t care what the resistance is. All that matters is the wattage. Same advice applies though. Sanyos aren’t good past 30watts.

 

[asmcriminal]

It seems clear to me that 2 Sanyos won't deliver enough power to handle a 0.1 ohm mesh. According to any of the Ohm's law calculators on the internet, applying 60W to a 0.1 ohms coil will require around 25 amps from the battery. Does this mean 3 Sanyos (on a triple battery mod) will do it? It will be 10A x 3. Am I correct assuming these numbers? Does it work that way?

I don't know why you keep on focusing on these Sanyos. There are other batteries out there. Just get some new batteries and call it a day. Get some Sony VTC5A(2500 mAh).

25A batteries are good up to 72 watts each. This means in a regulated device with two batteries are good up to 144 watts.

30A batteries such as Samsung 30S(2000mAh) are good at 86 watch each. Two in a regulated device are good up to 172 watts.

 

[Barruel]

200 grade ss is what I use. On the profile it will ohm out to .12-14 depending on how long you cut the mesh. The benefit of using the strips is that you can cut it longer or shorter to fine time your vape.

Now you’ll only have to upgrade your mod if the Pico won’t fire that low.

Good to know the SS mesh is not that low. Do you have to cut the mesh exactly to the size of the 16x6.8mm of the sample meshes or is there any tolerance? I guess than the length will be limited by the top cap, but I'm a bit concerned by the width. Do you have to trim the Vandy Vape mesh width or does it fit the Profile without that?

The batteries will need to be changed. Though. The Sanyos are 3300ma. A vtc6a will work for 60 Watts and you only trade off about 400mah.

Honestly you don’t really need a triple battery mod for the profile unless you are concerned about the battery life.

Well, the battery life is indeed a concern for me. But if a double mod battery actually doubles the battery life, then I have more than enough with that. Thing is that I never used a multiple battery mod and I don't know how it works power and battery life wise.

If the Pico will fire down to .1 it will be fine with a battery change.

According to their webpage, it will fire up to 0.1 coils in VW mode and up to 0.05 coils in TC mode. This will still stress batteries like the 30Qs, though, because they are rated at 15A and I will be asking about 25A from them @ 60W (or around 20 @ 50W).

The other option if you are going to upgrade anyway is to grab a 21700 mod.

I considered this also. There is a 21700 Pico which is not expensive. I dismissed that route mainly because of laziness. I have some idea about which 18650 batteries will work and which won't, but I'm absolutely lost with 21700s and didn't want to start any inquiry through Google. Any advice on 21700s?

My profile lasts an entire work day with a single 40t 21700 at around 50 Watts.

So is 50W good enough for mesh coils in the profile? Doesn't it feel weak?

Also, on a regulated mod the batteries don’t care what the resistance is. All that matters is the wattage. Same advice applies though. Sanyos aren’t good past 30watts.

Yep. That's what I've learned in this post.

 

[Barruel]

I don't know why you keep on focusing on these Sanyos.

Because I have 24 of them and it is a pity to just ditch them.

There are other batteries out there. Just get some new batteries and call it a day. Get some Sony VTC5A(2500 mAh).

25A batteries are good up to 72 watts each. This means in a regulated device with two batteries are good up to 144 watts.

30A batteries such as Samsung 30S(2000mAh) are good at 86 watch each. Two in a regulated device are good up to 172 watts.

The problem I have with these batteries on a single battery mod is battery life. It seems that on a multiple battery mod autonomy also multiplies, but I do notice a lot when I'm using a Sanyo and when I'm using a 25R on my single battery mods. Battery life is much better.

 

[diagrammatiks]

Good to know the SS mesh is not that low. Do you have to cut the mesh exactly to the size of the 16x6.8mm of the sample meshes or is there any tolerance? I guess than the length will be limited by the top cap, but I'm a bit concerned by the width. Do you have to trim the Vandy Vape mesh width or does it fit the Profile without that?



Well, the battery life is indeed a concern for me. But if a double mod battery actually doubles the battery life, then I have more than enough with that. Thing is that I never used a multiple battery mod and I don't know how it works power and battery life wise.



According to their webpage, it will fire up to 0.1 coils in VW mode and up to 0.05 coils in TC mode. This will still stress batteries like the 30Qs, though, because they are rated at 15A and I will be asking about 25A from them @ 60W (or around 20 @ 50W).



I considered this also. There is a 21700 Pico which is not expensive. I dismissed that route mainly because of laziness. I have some idea about which 18650 batteries will work and which won't, but I'm absolutely lost with 21700s and didn't want to start any inquiry through Google. Any advice on 21700s?



So is 50W good enough for mesh coils in the profile? Doesn't it feel weak?



Yep. That's what I've learned in this post.

The max width is constrained by the side posts. You can make it thinner but not wider. You could probably do something crazy like trim the edges and make the center really thick.

I don’t use the vv stuff. I just have sheets of generic mesh and I have to cut it myself.

The length you have more leeway. You can cut it so it’s almost flat or it can go much taller.

50 Watts is fine for the profile. It’s gonna kick much harder then the hadaly that’s for sure.

You could buy a dual battery mod and be good for 50-60 Watts with the Sanyos or a triple battery mod and be good to 80-90.

 

[Hawise]

Just to add to the 'regulated mods care about watts, not resistance' bit, here's a handy formula.

The watt limit of any regulated mod setup is:

Battery CDR * number of batteries * 3.2 v * 0.9

So for a dual battery mod using Samsung 30Qs, you'd have:

15 A * 2 * 3.2 v * 0.9 = 86 watts

The 3.2 is the average cutoff of most regulated mods. You're pulling the most power when your batteries are discharged, so you use the voltage at the bottom of the charge for the calculation. The 0.9 is for board efficiency. You lose a little power operating the board and the mod itself, as well as during the power conversion a regulated mod performs.

Another note is that you won't tend to get good performance if you're usually close to the limit. Given the 86 watt limit above, if you usually vaped at 75 watts or so, your batteries wouldn't tend to work very well and you'd lose some of the capacity to voltage sag. In that scenario, you'd be better off with a 20 A CDR battery, even if the official capacity was a little lower. This is probably what you're seeing with your current setup. Your Sanyos have 3500 mAh while the 25 R only has 2500 mAh, but it's still managing to last longer because your usage is stressing the Sanyos and you're not getting the full capacity out of them.

 

[sonicbomb]

It seems clear to me that 2 Sanyos won't deliver enough power to handle a 0.1 ohm mesh. According to any of the Ohm's law calculators on the internet, applying 60W to a 0.1 ohms coil will require around 25 amps from the battery. Does this mean 3 Sanyos (on a triple battery mod) will do it? It will be 10A x 3. Am I correct assuming these numbers? Does it work that way?

That is using ohms law which applies to an unregulated device. Perhaps go back and read what I wrote again, all of it.

 

[asmcriminal]

Because I have 24 of them and it is a pity to just ditch them.



The problem I have with these batteries on a single battery mod is battery life. It seems that on a multiple battery mod autonomy also multiplies, but I do notice a lot when I'm using a Sanyo and when I'm using a 25R on my single battery mods. Battery life is much better.

Even if you get a tri-battery device, you're only looking at 86 watts total with the Sanyos. I also doubt you're going to vape the mesh 24/7. I am sure you will still be able to use your Sanyos. Also, I am not sure if you even tried mesh. You may not even like it.

I just re-read your original post. You're looking for 50-60 watts. Two Sanyos are at their amp rating with 57.6W. But you also mentioned you want to vape in TC mode. So, I think you're good.

I still think you should get the Sonys. It would bring you peace of mind. You would have no doubt about their safety. You would not be worrying if you are pushing them too hard. I learned to just vape comfortably. When you're finicking with stuff like what you're doing, with specific coils, always wondering if things are okay, it takes away from the vape experience. The key is to enjoy vaping. And the way to do that is to have peace of mind with your vape gear.

 

[stols001]

Frugality doesn't apply to batteries. It would be one thing if you got overpowered batteries and were willing to put up with shorter runtimes at low wattages. What you are trying to do is the reverse, and while it would be a pity to waste them, certainly it would also be a shame if your mod blew up, due to overstressed batteries.

Unless you become a super sub0hmer all the time, you will probably still use those batteries at other times. If not, well, you are going to be blowing through batteries, juice, etc., the cost of your Sanyos is gonna be the least of your worries.

If you don't want to waste your batteries and all your non mesh vape gear to the VA (I mean, if you aren't going to use it.) They will, and you will get a tax deduction if you are into that sort of thing, hence offsetting SOME cost of all your new stuff. The husband drools over deductions, so yeah, if you are like that, do that (or just do it and feel virtuous and whatnot, plenty of vets would love to vape.)

Anna

 

[Barruel]

Ok. I get it.

In regulated mods resistance doesn't matter. It is watts what matter. I can still use my Sanyos, but I should think about renewing my roster of batteries with higher CDR batteries better sooner than later.

Of course, I'll keep using my current gear. I won't be always vaping the mesh and I even ordered some RDAs which work with traditional coils (Citadel, Hankku Venna and Entheon/Hadeon). It is just that I had to ask about this. Better safe than sorry.

Thank you all.

 

[dc99]

I have a couple of entheon and a couple hadlays. Best flavor rda's out there IMHO. I really want to try a citadel. I actually prefer simple 24ga SS coils for flavor. As far as 21700's go the 40T is great if you can find them. Im on golosi at the moment and have been pleased so far

 

[Barruel]

So finally I've got all the stuff.

First came the batteries (30Qs) and the mod (Eleaf Invoke, quickly arcticfoxed), and today I've got the Profile RDA and the toys that come with it.

So far, I'm very happy with the mod, the batteries and the battery life. None of my batteries were less that a year and a half old and I'm enjoying the fact that new batteries do indeed last longer. With my usual 0.4-0.5 Hadaly and Citadel setups I cannot really complain about my old batteries life in the dual mod, though.

I've set up the Profile RDA with the included Kanthal mesh. I'm using it at 50W in VW mode. At that power none of my batteries, not even my ancient 10A green Panasonics, are getting hot, and I'm enjoying it so much that I'm even using just half of the airflow available, and I usually like my vape on the airy side. I'm pretty confident about dry hits, because the lack of flavor works as a very effective warning when the mesh is running out of juice, so I'm not missing TC that much.

Vapor is not that much different to what I'm used to, but it is a different beast when it comes to flavor. The flavors seem to get much more intense in it. This works well for some juices, which become stellar in the Profile, but others change so much that I like them better in the Hadaly/Citadel.

I have a spoon of 200 grade SS mesh (from Vandy Vape), but it is too wide for the Profile and requires some trimming. I don't feel like messing with that right now, but I'll try it in the future. Only downside so far with the Profile is liquid (and cotton) economy. I'm dripping much often than I usually do with my regular coils. It's the toll for the flavor boost, I guess.

 

[Baditude]

For future reference, you can use this to help you choose your batteries:

Are you using a single, dual, or triple battery mod? In the interests of keeping things simple:

-If you use a good quality 15 amp CDR battery like the Samsung 30Q or Sony VTC6, then you are good up to 45 watts per battery; 90 watts using two; 135 watts for three batteries.

-If you use a good quality 20 amp CDR battery like the LG HG2 or Samsung 25R then you are good for 60 watts per battery. If using a 2-battery regulated mod, you're good for 120 watts as you have two batteries. If you are using a 3-battery mod, you're good for 180.

-If you use a single 25 amp CDR battery like the Sony VTC5A, then you are good for 75 watts per battery, 150 watts for two batteries, and 225 watts with three.

-If you use a single 30 amp CDR battery like the LG HB6 you are good up to 90 watts; with a pair of 30 amp CDR batteries you could safely do 180 watts.​

WATTAGE PER SINGLE BATTERY on REGULATED MOD:
(Total wattage doubles using 2 batteries; Triples using 3 batteries.)

Up to 45W:

Samsung 18650 30Q, 3000 mah 15 amp CDR

Sony 18650VTC6 3000mAh 15 amp CDR

​

Up to 60W:

LG 18650HG2 3000mah 20 amp CDR

LG 18650HE4 2500 mah 20 amp CDR

Samsung 18650-25R, 2500 mah 20 amp CDR

Sanyo UR18650NSX, 2500 mah 20 amp CDR

Sony 18650VTC5, 2600 mah 20 amp CDR

Sony 18650VTC4, 2100 mah 23 amp CDR

AW 18650 3000 mah 20 amp CDR

​

Up to 75W:

LG 18650 HD4 2100 mah 25 amp CDR

LG 18650 HD2 2000 mah 25 amp CDR

Samsung 18650-24S, 2500 mah 25 amp CDR

Sony 18650VTC5A, 2500 mah 25 amp CDR

​

Up to 90W:

LG18650HB6 1500mah 30 amp CDR

LG18650HB2 1500mAh 30 amp CDR

LG18650HB4 1500mAh 30 amp CDR

Samsung 18650-20S 2000mah 30 amp CDR