E-cigarettes 10 times more cancerstuff than analog says Japan researcher

[Tangaroav]

The ''free market'' is regulated in countless ways. Civilized society MUST be regulated or anarchy is the result,

Anarchy is detrimental to society and to the market place, ( remember the mortage fiasco ?). Self regulation is what is going on now in the vaping industry, anarchy has been prevented up to now. Mostly reason has prevailed, we only have those 11 % to be careful of and keep in check before they ruin it for all of us by forcing government to step in and regulate the s**t out of it.

 

[Kent C]

The ''free market'' is regulated in countless ways. Civilized society MUST be regulated or anarchy is the result,

Anarchy is detrimental to society and to the market place, ( remember the mortage fiasco ?). Self regulation is what is going on now in the vaping industry, anarchy has been prevented up to now. Mostly reason has prevailed, we only have those 11 % to be careful of and keep in check before they ruin it for all of us by forcing government to step in and regulate the s**t out of it.

Anarchy is the absence of government. There's a difference between gov't upholding rights through the justice system and gov't violating rights through regulation.

There's a difference between gov't handling fraud and theft in business, through the justice system, and gov't creating fraud and theft through regulation. The mortgage crisis was the result of gov't forcing banks to make loans that in a free market, they would never make. Those toxic loans were then packaged in such a way that the trading of those packages was bound to fail, expanding the 'mistaken' practice from the banks to Freddie Mac and Fanny Mae to the financial markets as well. Without the prior intervention by gov't, through regulation in place of justice, into the mortgage business, no such crisis would have occurred.

If instead of gov't forcing banks to make a higher percentage of their loans than normal market conditions would dictate, to certain low and medium income groups through regulation, via a blanket regulation that ensures default - if instead of that, that they used the justice system to uphold the law against specific cases of redlining and discrimination, you would have seen no instances of toxic packaging and credit default swaps, etc. etc. and would have taken bank officers to jail, who specifically stopped people who were credit worthy from getting home loans. That's the difference between justice that enforces laws, and regulation that skews the free market into some socialist "utopia" that ends up violating everyone's rights, because of the 'we know what's best for you' ideology of the idiots in charge.

The vaping business, as you say, is now 'self-regulated'. If the deeming (regulation) goes through as planned, you have gov't intervention that could - as stated in the deeming - force all small vendors to 'exit the market' - and could result in only the big tobacco companies selling ecigarettes. The fact that the industry has, for a long time, passed the level of ecigarettes and has instituted innovations that improve devices and eliquids beyond the initial level of cigalikes is why - AS A RESULT OF THE INTERVENTION - just as in the mortgage industry - could result in what you might call 'anarchy' - a thriving uncontrolled/non-self-regulated black market. (or an underground market under less scrutiny that it has now in the open market).

And it isn't the absence of gov't - ie anarchy - that caused it, but just the opposite - the presence of gov't going beyond it's Constitutional authority of merely upholding rights and applying justice to those who violate them - but that intrusion of gov't into the marketplace with ideas of how they think, they can make it 'better', rather than letting the market decide as we have done now for going on 7 years and doing rather well at it.

 

[WattWick]

Real anarchists wear suits and ties

 

[Kent C]

Real anarchists wear suits and ties

They certainly don't wear Guy Fawkes masks and Che t-shirts Although some who don't know what anarchy is, do.

 

[Tangaroav]

.........

The vaping business, as you say, is now 'self-regulated'. If the deeming (regulation) goes through as planned, you have gov't intervention that could - as stated in the deeming - force all small vendors to 'exit the market' - and could result in only the big tobacco companies selling ecigarettes.

I think the small vendor sad story is mostly bs to bring sympathy for all to often unqualified and sometimes unscrupulous individuals trying to ride the gravy train.

The mom&pop and the B&M shops mixing juices in their basements or backrooms and selling it on a beautiful web page are too often dangerous to unwary clients. As a consumer I want to be able to shop for e-liquids knowing that SOME miminal standards are being applied by the mixers of the ingredients. After all my health may depend on it.

The fact that the industry has, for a long time, passed the level of ecigarettes and has instituted innovations that improve devices and eliquids beyond the initial level of cigalikes is why - AS A RESULT OF THE INTERVENTION - just as in the mortgage industry - could result in what you might call 'anarchy' - a thriving uncontrolled/non-self-regulated black market. (or an underground market under less scrutiny that it has now in the open market).

And it isn't the absence of gov't - ie anarchy - that caused it, but just the opposite - the presence of gov't going beyond it's Constitutional authority of merely upholding rights and applying justice to those who violate them - but that intrusion of gov't into the marketplace with ideas of how they think, they can make it 'better', rather than letting the market decide as we have done now for going on 7 years and doing rather well at it.[/QUOTE]

Do you really think a black market for Diketones e-liquids will emerge once we get rid of it in commercial e-liquids ?

In the meantime, we should all support vendors that apply quality standards like AEMSA, ( AEMSA | American E-Liquid Manufacturing Standards Association), members, they need to be supported. Our efforts should be directed at improving the standards not defending things like diketones that hurt all of us.

 

[Tangaroav]

.........

The vaping business, as you say, is now 'self-regulated'. If the deeming (regulation) goes through as planned, you have gov't intervention that could - as stated in the deeming - force all small vendors to 'exit the market' - and could result in only the big tobacco companies selling ecigarettes.

I think the small vendor sad story is mostly bs to bring sympathy for all to often unqualified and sometimes unscrupulous individuals trying to ride the gravy train.

The mom&pop and the B&M shops mixing juices in their basements or backrooms and selling it on a beautiful web page are too often dangerous to unwary clients. As a consumer I want to be able to shop for e-liquids knowing that SOME miminal standards are being applied by the mixers of the ingredients. After all my health may depend on it.

The fact that the industry has, for a long time, passed the level of ecigarettes and has instituted innovations that improve devices and eliquids beyond the initial level of cigalikes is why - AS A RESULT OF THE INTERVENTION - just as in the mortgage industry - could result in what you might call 'anarchy' - a thriving uncontrolled/non-self-regulated black market. (or an underground market under less scrutiny that it has now in the open market).

Do you really think a black market for Diketones e-liquids will emerge once we get rid of it in commercial e-liquids ?

In the meantime, we should all support vendors that apply quality standards like AEMSA, ( AEMSA | American E-Liquid Manufacturing Standards Association), members, they need to be supported. Our efforts should be directed at improving the standards not defending things like diketones that hurt all of us.

 

[Kent C]

Tangaroav:I think the small vendor sad story is mostly bs to bring sympathy for all to often unqualified and sometimes unscrupulous individuals trying to ride the gravy train.

The 'small vendor sad story' was written into the deeming regulation. The 'exit the business' is their wording not mine, or "unscrupulous individuals trying to ride the gravy train" - unless you're talking about Zeller and the ANTZ. I don't think you know to what I was referencing, which is fine...

The mom&pop and the B&M shops mixing juices in their basements or backrooms and selling it on a beautiful web page are too often dangerous to unwary clients. As a consumer I want to be able to shop for e-liquids knowing that SOME miminal standards are being applied by the mixers of the ingredients. After all my health may depend on it.

You, as a consumer with such concerns, are responsible for your own health, not mine or anyone else's. As it is right now, in an open market, vendors have to respond to that market. IF there are enough people with these concerns, then the money goes to those who make sure their eliquids do not contain certain substances and vendor who don't 'comply' to those demands will lose market share. Those ignorant of such factors will continue to buy whatever tastes good to them. That is less likely to happen in a black market, as is evidenced by other black markets - alcohol prohibition, for example.

Do you really think a black market for Diketones e-liquids will emerge once we get rid of it in commercial e-liquids ?

It is what is 'black' about the black market - one does not know. Again, other blinding (literally) alcohols were part of the black market during prohibition. Other 'substances' are added in the current drug market that are not in the markets that have been legalized.

In the meantime, we should all support vendors that apply quality standards like AEMSA, ( AEMSA | American E-Liquid Manufacturing Standards Association), members, they need to be supported. Our efforts should be directed at improving the standards not defending things like diketones that hurt all of us.

I'm in favor of attempts by AEMSA (and ECITA) to examine and verifying a certain quality in eliquids. I'm also in favor of vendors having the option to use those means and against gov't regulation. I'm for gov't justice for anyone who would harm (again, not junk science harm) someone with their products in any industry and would support fines and jail sentences to those who do, but would not support any blanket regulations that make all into 'criminals' when they are not. IOW, I am neither an anarchist or a socialist. .. but IF those were the only choices, I'd fall on the side of anarchy, where as Jefferson noted, the Native Americans did quite well with it in some areas of the Americas.

Ever since Robert Filmer and Jeremy Bentham raised the specter of anarchy against any regulation of government, it has been used as fear mongering and a scare tactic by anyone who wants to control behavior. "Anarchy" is used by those who want gov't control, as ANTZ have used 'poison' in an attempt to control ecigarettes. Neither "argument" has any validity or any real reference to the situations - again, other than fear mongering - and for that both work rather well.

 

[jpargana]

I agree, research like the study all this press stemmed from is a good thing. The problem arises when the media and/or others take information and distort, on either side. The study itself is still unpublished, and the "10 times" sample was an anomaly that the researchers haven't explained yet.

And also, when the media does NOT take other kind of information when they could.

When this 10x nonsense appeared, most people (including myself) linked it to a previous study made by the same person.
That study has been already published, is readily available for people to read, and is favourable to vaping. According do Dr Farsalinos, the maximum amount presented by any of the 13 tested devices then was one sixth of tobacco smoke.

Did we see anything on the media stating that "A new study concludes that vaping is six times safer than smoking? Nope. Not a word.

On this new study (that has not even been published yet), 10 other devices were tested (So, already 23 devices in all). There was ONE device that presented 60x (from 1/6 to 10x) the levels presented by it's "peers". This is clearly an anormality that is still being checked. Apparently, that's why the study has not been published (the logical thing to do would be to check with the factory if the device is indeed working well, and only after that's confirmed, to repeat the test - maybe this time, double-checking if the tank is actually full )


And what did the media do? They presented the ONE anormality found as the "conclusion" of that study. Not a word about any of the other 22 devices. And this, even BEFORE it was even published. Forgetting to tell people that a study cannot have "conclusions" until it is actually FINISHED.


If we still needed proof about powerful interests acting against the e-cig industry, here it is: why the rush to give the media, under the table, an unfinished study, and present the abnormal as the "conclusion", when there are so many other published, favourable studies that only vapers know they exist - because the media has no interest in publishing them? I wonder...

 

[Jman8]

I think the small vendor sad story is mostly bs to bring sympathy for all to often unqualified and sometimes unscrupulous individuals trying to ride the gravy train.

The mom&pop and the B&M shops mixing juices in their basements or backrooms and selling it on a beautiful web page are too often dangerous to unwary clients. As a consumer I want to be able to shop for e-liquids knowing that SOME miminal standards are being applied by the mixers of the ingredients. After all my health may depend on it.

Wow! That is my first impression on reading this. And my second impression after re-reading what you wrote.

In a free market, the consumer who wants to shop for eLiquids, knowing some minimal standards are applied to mixing, exists. Or at least, it currently does.

In the regulated market, where Big Money does a lot of the talking, then unscrupulous individuals will be riding the gravy train (collecting fees for doing nothing other than imposing standards with 'penalty of law' to back them up).

If truly concerned with health of all vapers and not wanting unqualified individuals to be mixing juice, then a reasonable position would be to outlaw DIY practices. But methinks we aren't going to go there, and instead impose our will on vendors who we deem less qualified when compared to the multi-million dollar facilities that Big Money has bought.

 

[Tangaroav]

What can I say, I can't argue with people whose reasoning is distorted by their phobia of government and the certainty that only their views make any sense while reaping the benefits of living in a free, democratic, civilized society, all of which entails rules, regulations and protection of its citizens.

 

[Kent C]

I won't quote because it would be a violation of the rules here.

What can you say? Well you could actually address the points made rather than insulting those who make it, with generalizations that, with a few variations ("love of government" in place of 'phobia', for example) would apply to you as well. When people use ad hominem, the results on the debate are evident and for me, over. Unless you actually want to try to make your case instead of using insults. Perhaps I'm asking too much from you.

 

[DC2]

It is beyond comprehension how anyone would want to keep diketones in e-liquids when they are avoidable dangerous ingredients.

If a person believes that the level of diketones are below the level of being dangerous...
And if that person feels that the liquid tastes so much better with than without...

That's not really beyond comprehension, is it?

I would personally prefer that they were not in there, but that's me.
I'd also prefer that searing my steak did not increase carcinogens, but I do it anyway.

 

[Nate760]

They certainly don't wear Guy Fawkes masks and Che t-shirts Although some who don't know what anarchy is, do.

Whenever I see some youngster wearing a Che shirt, I go up to them and ask what they actually know about Ernesto Guevara. The most articulate answers I ever get are along the lines of "Well, he was this dude who was like....all into freedom and stuff." But usually I just get a blank stare.

 

[DC2]

Might want to ask them what his last name is and see how many know.

 

[Tangaroav]

Reporting on his study, Dr. Faralinos concludes talking about diketones, a proven, harmful and regulated ingredients present in 70% of e-liquids tested with the following statement.

'' ...while the identification of a small but avoidable risk will alert the industry to resolve this issue permanently and effectively. ''

For this he has been called an ANTZ/ doing the work of ANTZ and the discussion has derailed to big government, big brother, loss of free market, the end of vaping as we know it. Some here insist to protect the sale of this poison in e-liquid to the general public to protect small vendors .????

We should all be thankful and do our outmost to make sure our respective vendors are taking action.

As I mentionned earlier, the bishops during the inquisition killed scientist that reported findings that did not fit the bible. They had a vested interest in keeping people ignorant. IMO, only people with vested interest would dare to support keeping diketones in e-liquids.

 

[Nate760]

Reporting on his study, Dr. Faralinos concludes talking about diketones, a proven, harmful and regulated ingredients present in 70% of e-liquids tested with the following statement.

It seems you're really going out of your way to conflate "present" with "present at potentially harmful levels." Presence does not equal harm. Each time you take a breath of ambient room air you inhale things that would kill you in higher concentrations.

 

[Jman8]

We should all be thankful and do our outmost to make sure our respective vendors are taking action.

As I mentionned earlier, the bishops during the inquisition killed scientist that reported findings that did not fit the bible. They had a vested interest in keeping people ignorant. IMO, only people with vested interest would dare to support keeping diketones in e-liquids.

And if our respective vendors choose not to take action, or the action that you desire, then what?

(Off with their heads!)

 

[Jman8]

Reporting on his study, Dr. Faralinos concludes talking about diketones, a proven, harmful and regulated ingredients present in 70% of e-liquids tested with the following statement.

'' ...while the identification of a small but avoidable risk will alert the industry to resolve this issue permanently and effectively. ''

Find me a quote where Dr F. says there ought to be a mandate in place. Or one where he is saying consumers ought to take to task all vendors on this issue.

For this he has been called an ANTZ/ doing the work of ANTZ

I said if a scientist on our side is advocating for mandatory disclosure, they are doing the work of ANTZ. I'm yet to see Dr. F. or Dr. K. suggest this, so I don't think they are doing the work of ANTZ. Instead, they are advocating customers avoid these type of flavors and suggesting vendors eliminate the hazard as it is an avoidable risk. Cool. But when you advocate as such, you cease the role of being pure scientist. And so, I would ask, within context of this discussion what Dr. F (or Dr. K.) thinks ought to happen to vendors (or flavoring suppliers) who do not follow their guidance? I'm thinking they wouldn't suggest intervention by some third party to mandate such actions be complied with.

If you find out differently or think differently yourself, then let's have that dialogue. Otherwise, I think it is pretty clear where this thread went off track from what is originally a topic comparing danger of eCigs to danger of smoking.

 

[Kent C]

Reporting on his study, Dr. Faralinos concludes talking about diketones, a proven, harmful and regulated ingredients present in 70% of e-liquids tested with the following statement.

'' ...while the identification of a small but avoidable risk will alert the industry to resolve this issue permanently and effectively. ''

For this he has been called an ANTZ/ doing the work of ANTZ and the discussion has derailed to big government, big brother, loss of free market, the end of vaping as we know it. Some here insist to protect the sale of this poison in e-liquid to the general public to protect small vendors .????

We should all be thankful and do our outmost to make sure our respective vendors are taking action.

As I mentionned earlier, the bishops during the inquisition killed scientist that reported findings that did not fit the bible. They had a vested interest in keeping people ignorant. IMO, only people with vested interest would dare to support keeping diketones in e-liquids.

Basically, you agree with the OP news story that ecigs are 10 times more dangerous than cigarettes. And dude, YOU are the one that introduced "anarchy" into the discussion - at least take responsibility for that - while accusing others of 'expanding' the thread and then insulting them when they reply to your accusations.

 

[DrMA]

It seems you're really going out of your way to conflate "present" with "present at potentially harmful levels." Presence does not equal harm. Each time you take a breath of ambient room air you inhale things that would kill you in higher concentrations.

That's right. I'd like to see ANTZ locked up in room with an atmosphere made up of 100% pure nitrogen (filtered if they so desire so there are no "ultrafine particles"). Let's see how long they'd hold to their ridiculous contention that concentrations are not important and that "pure" air is the best.