E-Cigarettes Prove a Hot Topic for Experts

[MrKai]

But here is the spin off to all of this can you prove that they are safer than cigarette smoke....

This CAN be proven or disproven. No one has bothered to (yet). See, like "light" cigarettes, they "logically" appear to be safer.

On the Internet, this is proof. In the lab, this is junk science. In court, this is conjecture

dont get me wrong I feel 1000 times better than I did when I smoked...but in the scientific community hard facts is all they look at.

Depends on who you ask

So the question is can anyone prove that inhaling Vapor is safer than smoke...because if you did then it will spark up interest...until then forget about it.

Asking "scary questions" only counts when the bright light of inquiry is shone outward with the majority here, it appears

-K

 

[Kate51]

There is one thing I definitely agree with Peter Ucko (is that a real name?)
We really do have to do all we can to keep airplanes from smoking!!!

 

[MrKai]

There is one thing I definitely agree with Peter Ucko (is that a real name?)
We really do have to do all we can to keep airplanes from smoking!!!

Yes I concur. Smoking airplanes are an immediate health threat to their occupants and should be avoided and prevented!

-K

 

[grimmer255]

Again Im am with every single one of you. I feel 1000 times better now than I did when I smoked. But in sound science they do not go by hunches or weighing options...its based of clinical studies and chemical test tubes and numbers. You do not know how your body chemistry will react to these eliquids on a long term base. Your talking about no break time in the body when you inhale these liquids...wich means there are no changes in the chemical structure compared to the same chemicals being digested through the stomach.

Yes there are tests of PG but not in huge amounts in haled on a daily bases. And not including the chemicals as well as a purer form of nicotine. We have no test of this degree...so we do not know

 

[Kate51]

The Ruyan® (nicotine) E-Cigarette

In case you haven't been able to read these yet.....some good info for the curious.

 

[aditas]

This CAN be proven or disproven. No one has bothered to (yet). See, like "light" cigarettes, they "logically" appear to be safer.

On the Internet, this is proof. In the lab, this is junk science. In court, this is conjecture



Depends on who you ask



Asking "scary questions" only counts when the bright light of inquiry is shone outward with the majority here, it appears

-K

What question are you trying to answer?

How do YOU know that right now, something ISN'T happening inside your body or your brain that is having a cumulative negative effect?

Here...let me help you: you haven't got a CLUE

I do not know how Pepsi quenches my thirst either. All I know is that when I drink enough of it I am no longer thirsty. Are you saying that I need to study the biology and chemistry of drinking Pepsi before I attempt to drink it?
Can you see how stupid your arguments sound?

 

[Kate51]

There are tests ongoing as we speak. You need to go back to older threads and take a look, under such headings and New Zealand & Ruyan testing, there are now thousands of posts in front of a lot of information now covered because for some reason people just started asking instead of looking at established Threads. I know, because I spent weeks reading and trying to get a handle on just what is happening with this new technology. The one above is just one of many. And inside that is many links to look through as well.
I'm pretty well satisfied this vaping is not going to kill me. People need to dig back, bring some of these threads forward again.
There are numerous tests with Cotinine levels in urine and saliva, cotinine being the by-product of metabolism of nicotine through the system. Interesting reading as well. Never assume there has been a subject as important as benefit/questions of PV use gone un-searched, many talented and curious people have come here before us. Thanks!

 

[JLeigh]

...we have no where NEAR that much data, and quite frankly, I am on the verge of cursing at people that are willing to proclaim eCigs as a holy magic bullet with virtually NO ......NED SCIENCE to back it up.

Now now. No need to get so riled up. It's not healthy.

You might have a point if science was infallible. Science is no such thing. Why? It can be manipulated, and errors can and do happen. Fallible human beings are interpreting data, and as such, we cannot always presume that if science says so, it IS so. Anyone remember when science decided that consuming egg yolks was tantamount to arsenic poisoning? The medical community is constantly reversing its own earlier "scientific findings". And, as much as we can't stand to think about it, scientific results can be agenda-driven. It's nothing new, and it's been going on for years. There have been plenty of studies done on a plethora of things that never saw the light of day because they defied the politically-correct wisdom of that time.

*Water drank* fast enough, in enough volume CAN KILL YOU. We do not in ANY WAY know the *cumilative effects* of this and some "kitchen chemist" on a forum trying to shout down the mere *concept* of proof (and you ALL know who you are) make us look FAR WORSE than ASH or anyone else...simply because you engage in dishonest debate...like every OTHER kind of junkie justifying why they "have to have" their fix.

I really have no idea what you're getting so upset about. This is a community of people who are all simply voicing their opinions on this subject. Just because their thought process does not mirror your thought process does not make them intellectually dishonest.

We DO NOT know. There hasn't been enough peer review of even the studies done yet, enough "what if" enough "what ingredients in flavoring could react with the metals and plastics, cumilative levels of x over a period of y when passed in heated vapor..." none of it.

No, we don't know. What we do know, however, is what common sense tells us: Ingesting 4 (or 20) chemicals is "less harmful" as opposed to 4,000 chemicals. That's just simple common sense. If I ingest bleach, for example, that's not very good, but it's better than ingesting bleach, ammonia, glass shards, rat poison, and Windex all at once.

SO JUST STOP with these disingenuous attempts at "analysis based on common sense" (not scientific), armchair lawyering (not law) and stick to philosophy.

Nobody has to stop anything. This an internet forum, not the bar exam. If the admin tells us to stop, THEN we stop.

Try sticking to KNOWN FACTS. Drawing untested conclusions without testing is exactly how cigs got to the point where they were killing millions.

Your known facts may be different than my known facts.

How do YOU know that right now, something ISN'T happening inside your body or your brain that is having a cumulative negative effect?

Here...let me help you: you haven't got a CLUE

And neither do you.

It does NOT HELP making wildly unsubstantiated claims while sucking a known highly addictive substance into your body.

You've lost me here. Care to clarify?

Critical Thinking and Informed Opinion is a two-way street. Point me to at least 20 peer-reviewed studies...yes, even *studies* at this point, that conclusively and overwhelmingly agree with some of these assertions.

You once again assume that scientific data is always infallible. That assumption isn't factual.

Failure to engage in honest debate will do us in *in the court of public opinion* and it is high time that people stopped saying "harmless water vapor"..."no carcinogens" etc because if anyone ever finds any, ballgame. The fact that the majority of the vapor inhaled and exhaled ISN'T WATER VAPOR and yet people insist on repeating this?

NOT helping.

-K

I agree that we should not call it "water vapor", since it certainly isn't, as far as I can tell.

I will say, though, that while I was initially very interested in your posts, your attitude has been deteriorating at quite a fast rate. If you are truly trying to "educate the masses" (for lack of a better term), then you would do well to reign in the insults and thinly veiled contempt for those who don't see your viewpoint. You will lose your audience. And I mean no disrespect to you at all in saying so.

 

[grimmer255]

To me there are no stupid questions only unasked questions is stupid. If a person doesn't know they simply do not know....the way I see it if that person does not know that means no one has never told them or they never really wanted to know until that very moment they asked. So if you came up to me and asked why does the earth constantly recycles itself? or why there is earthquakes? or how did the Marianas Trench formed? or why do we need water? or why does 1 percent of the united states population own 90 percent of the US money?.......I wouldn't laugh and say that's a stupid question..

 

[Our House]

...we have no where NEAR that much data, and quite frankly, I am on the verge of cursing at people that are willing to proclaim eCigs as a holy magic bullet with virtually NO ......NED SCIENCE to back it up.

*Water drank* fast enough, in enough volume CAN KILL YOU. We do not in ANY WAY know the *cumilative effects* of this and some "kitchen chemist" on a forum trying to shout down the mere *concept* of proof (and you ALL know who you are) make us look FAR WORSE than ASH or anyone else...simply because you engage in dishonest debate...like every OTHER kind of junkie justifying why they "have to have" their fix.

We DO NOT know. There hasn't been enough peer review of even the studies done yet, enough "what if" enough "what ingredients in flavoring could react with the metals and plastics, cumilative levels of x over a period of y when passed in heated vapor..." none of it.

SO JUST STOP with these disingenuous attempts at "analysis based on common sense" (not scientific), armchair lawyering (not law) and stick to philosophy.

Try sticking to KNOWN FACTS. Drawing untested conclusions without testing is exactly how cigs got to the point where they were killing millions.

How do YOU know that right now, something ISN'T happening inside your body or your brain that is having a cumulative negative effect?

Here...let me help you: you haven't got a CLUE

Stop making an alternative choice in to a damned "intellectual cult". I mean even NORML has YEARS and YEARS of fact and historical data on their side...and no offense to our NORML friends here, they have some perception issues.

It does NOT HELP making wildly unsubstantiated claims while sucking a known highly addictive substance into your body.

Critical Thinking and Informed Opinion is a two-way street. Point me to at least 20 peer-reviewed studies...yes, even *studies* at this point, that conclusively and overwhelmingly agree with some of these assertions.

Failure to engage in honest debate will do us in *in the court of public opinion* and it is high time that people stopped saying "harmless water vapor"..."no carcinogens" etc because if anyone ever finds any, ballgame. The fact that the majority of the vapor inhaled and exhaled ISN'T WATER VAPOR and yet people insist on repeating this?

NOT helping.

-K

Who are you and why are you so riled up??

I asked what I thought was a simple and very valid hypothetical, but would have refrained from doing so if I knew you were going to blow a gasket over it (without even addressing the question nonetheless).

 

[lotus14]

Thank you JLeigh. MrKai needs to chill.

 

[grimmer255]

heres a quick question this is only a what if.......what if tobacco and all of its usses were banned tomorrow? Lets say the government wanted to be nice and give everyone a 24 hour notice what do you think would happend?

just tryen to lighten up the place

 

[grimmer255]

..........................................

 

[Valkerie]

heres a quick question this is only a what if.......what if tobacco and all of its usses were banned tomorrow? Lets say the government wanted to be nice and give everyone a 24 hour notice what do you think would happend?

The country would go bankrupt. Approximately 4.50 of what I spend on a pack of analogs goes to taxes. (One of the NY papers did a breakdown on how your cigarette dollars were divided up. I don't remember where I saw the article.) I was smoking a pack and a half a day. That's 2,465 in taxes just from me via smokes. Hubby smokes too.

If millions of smokers weren't buying cigarettes, the country would collapse faster than you could imagine.

 

[Bruce H]

Again Im am with every single one of you. I feel 1000 times better now than I did when I smoked. But in sound science they do not go by hunches or weighing options...its based of clinical studies and chemical test tubes and numbers. You do not know how your body chemistry will react to these eliquids on a long term base. Your talking about no break time in the body when you inhale these liquids...wich means there are no changes in the chemical structure compared to the same chemicals being digested through the stomach.

Yes there are tests of PG but not in huge amounts in haled on a daily bases. And not including the chemicals as well as a purer form of nicotine. We have no test of this degree...so we do not know

Uh- what I do know is this:

When I started smoking actual cigarettes 22 years ago as a child (15) I had no idea what was in them, had no idea or didn't care what the long term effects of burning something and inhaling the smoke on a constant basis would be.

You're asking a bunch of people to question something that is pretty much irrelevant to them. What I have seen by the vast majority of people who post in this forum is this:

1: We were all were addicted to burning tobacco and inhaling it in all of it various forms.

2. Of the people who were interested in quitting- we all tried the pills, the patch, the gum to no avail (as the vast majority did as well- look up the recidivism rates)

3. I would estimate that less than 1% of the people you run into on here tried and gave up on the e-cigarette (PV)

So, I personally feel confident with my new habit. I will not lie, I am a nicotine addict and while not proud I am not ashamed either. I feel confident in knowing that I am vaporizing no more than 4 substances. I know how I feel now and no one can convince me otherwise. I also know for a a fact that the habit I replaced would inevitably kill me in a very slow and excruciating way.

So, bottom line for me- I didn't care about the long term effects of Camel Lights and my DSE 901 does not scare me in the slightest. Would I like to see honest tests done- sure. Is that going to prevent me from continuing what I believe is nothing short of a freakin' miracle- HELL NO!

 

[rothenbj]

Yes there are tests of PG but not in huge amounts in haled on a daily bases. And not including the chemicals as well as a purer form of nicotine. We have no test of this degree...so we do not know

I believe you're right on this point. I believe the FDA should immediately step in and ban the use of PG to create smoke effect in every concert and every tv show that uses it. These people are inhaling volumes of PG on stage whenever it's used. Plus they're doing it every night that a concert is held. This is especially dangerous for our singer children that are exposed to this threat.

We also should have some regulatory body test every new product that comes into the marketplace. They have these new boards at home depot that you can build your decks with. Have these been tested for long term effect? They might appear safe, but at one time asbestos was used in building all over the country and used to cover heating systems. It wasn't until years later that the long term effects was determined.

Do we really know the long term effects of holding that cell phone to our ear? Is there not a possible long term health effect that we may discover sometime in the future with having plasma or lcd or led TVs that we watch nightly. These are all fairly new technologies that really haven't gone through the government scrutiny that would keep our children safe. I know if I had young children that spent 17 hours a day two feet from that big screen I certainly would want the nanny state protecting them as they eat their McDonalds.

 

[kinabaloo]

I don't guess it is 'long-term' enough, but I can personally attest to now just a smidge over 2 *years* of vaping, nearly 2 years of nothing but vaping, I have suffered no ill side effects of any kind. I have also gained a lot from switching to vaping such as no more morning cough, better results on physicals - (no more wheezing in the lungs, etc.) and the list goes on.

Same old argument... what will ever be enough?

That's so right; that is the problem with the stance that says to just do some tests and all will be well. If only it were that simple.

 

[grimmer255]

the problem is there has to be chemical tests to see if any of the chemicals in ejuice reacts badly with each other. Then they have to run test to see how each chemical reacts in the body when its inhaled. Then they have to run tests to see how all the chemicals combined react in the body when its inhaled. Then they need to run test to see what the max amount of nicotine someone could inhale in the form of vapor. Then they need to find the safe levels for the liquid. Then they need to do placebo tests with so many people vs those you use the nicotine. and it just keeps on going with more tests and finding the right regulations for the ecigs and then they have to start makeing quality control regulations to which they have to follow. Then they have set up shipping agreements. Then they have to follow the strict packaging guidelines oh dont forget strict labeling........the list goes on and on.......

its a slap in the face is what it is.....

 

[hifistud]

In an ideal world, there'd be independent labs all over the world running a battery of tests and studies on every e-juice and how it reacts with every known PV, and what the effects on the human body are for every possible combination of pv, juice and usage style. And the end result would be that, after 20 years, PVs would still not be on the market in every country that's already got a ban or putative ban in place.

What we have now is a situation where the inhalation of PG, VG and PEG has been studied and toxicity levels etc determined - they are generally considered as safe (my industry uses such stuff a lot, in vapour form, and we have to produce risk assessments, so I know whereof I speak) - so that's OK.

We also know what the toxicity constraints on Nicotine are, and, although I think the labelling of the majority of e-juices could be much more specific about the concentration of nic in the juice, again, what we can buy is generally to be considered as safe - in other words, you can buy similarly formulated liquids intended for topical application and the quantities involved have passed such legislation as exists.

The only real unknown is the flavouring. It's reasonable to suspect that tobacco-based flavourings may contain tobacco-based undesirable substances (and the FDA did, in fact, find some), but even then, we know from the one scientific (well, maybe) and official study that US government currently recognises, that those levels are already available in approved product.

Logically, then, we can conclude that what is presented to us to use can be generally considered as safe. That's the attitude the UK government has taken, via Trading Standards - the US, though, appears to have a much more vocal lobby looking to remove any competition tobacco companies may perceive (and it's interesting to note that Philip Morris has already trialled a very similar product to PVs). In short, politicians are playing politics with the whole concept, instead of applying common sense and study-based judgement to something that looks as though it could save millions of lives annually.

 

[Kate51]

Guys, come on, I've referred to some research, and I say again, start looking back....so many have worked so hard to glean information from every possible source. It's here, at ECF, the Professional sites, Google! and there is ongoing work....if you have such a zest for proven points, they are out there. But you have to look, not just pontificate. We all started at Point A, so it's a journey, none of us fear the truth, it's just a matter of finding it!