E-cigs blamed for parental negligence - ECF Infozone Article

[ECF Articles]

A new article has been posted on the ECF Infozone: This whole month, searches on “e-cigs” have rendered “E-cig poisonings on the rise” articles. The Minneapolis Star‘s “Latest e-cig fear: Poisoned kids” is an example. It would seem that journalists hostile to vaping are getting desperate for headline ideas that will link e-cigarettes with things that frighten the public. These articles are not about any […]
The post E-cigs blamed for parental negligence appeared first on ECF InfoZone.

Article by Gary Cox


Go and read it Here...!

 

[DeadbeatJeff]

A group of European nicotine scientists, in a recent letter to the EU Commission, pointed out that it would be impossible to kill oneself by drinking nicotine liquid, at any concentration, because vomiting would set in naturally long before death.

OK now. I'm against this fear mongering as well; however, as my sister, a pediatric neurologist, pointed out in a FB PM debate with me last week, after the NYT article:

A lethal dose of nicotine is probably around 3 mg/kg (this appears to be controversial, but based on what I can find it is probably somewhere between 0.5 mg/kg and 8 mg/kg). If we go with 3 mg/kg that is 30 mg for a toddler. So 0.3 mL of 10% liquid nicotine could be fatal for a toddler... And, a fatal dose of the 2.4 % stuff would be 1 mL (1/5 of a teaspoon)​

Now, her conclusion is that 100mg NIC shouldn't be available to anyone online, and she points out that nicotine is considered the single most toxic poison in her lab.

My conclusion is that we need to be super-vigilant. NOT to say "It is impossible to be fatally poisoned by NIC".

A young child could certainly be killed by 100mg NIC, just by what is absorbed in the mouth, throat, esophagus, etc, before vomiting can ensue.

Hyperbole is not helping us, from whichever side it is coming from.

 

[DeadbeatJeff]

OK now. I'm against this fear mongering as well; however, as my sister, a pediatric neurologist, pointed out in a FB PM debate with me last week, after the NYT article:

A lethal dose of nicotine is probably around 3 mg/kg (this appears to be controversial, but based on what I can find it is probably somewhere between 0.5 mg/kg and 8 mg/kg). If we go with 3 mg/kg that is 30 mg for a toddler. So 0.3 mL of 10% liquid nicotine could be fatal for a toddler... And, a fatal dose of the 2.4 % stuff would be 1 mL (1/5 of a teaspoon)​

Now, her conclusion is that 100mg NIC shouldn't be available to anyone online, and she points out that nicotine is considered the single most toxic poison in her lab.

My conclusion is that we need to be super-vigilant. NOT to say "It is impossible to be fatally poisoned by NIC".

A young child could certainly be killed by 100mg NIC, just by what is absorbed in the mouth, throat, esophagus, etc, before vomiting can ensue.

Hyperbole is not helping us, from whichever side it is coming from.

We both agreed that acetaminophen is likely far more dangerous around the house, in practice, than NIC juice. But that's not saying much, as acetaminophen is can be really really poisonous.

 

[Tomthern]

OK now. I'm against this fear mongering as well; however, as my sister, a pediatric neurologist, pointed out in a FB PM debate with me last week, after the NYT article:

A lethal dose of nicotine is probably around 3 mg/kg (this appears to be controversial, but based on what I can find it is probably somewhere between 0.5 mg/kg and 8 mg/kg). If we go with 3 mg/kg that is 30 mg for a toddler. So 0.3 mL of 10% liquid nicotine could be fatal for a toddler... And, a fatal dose of the 2.4 % stuff would be 1 mL (1/5 of a teaspoon)​

Now, her conclusion is that 100mg NIC shouldn't be available to anyone online, and she points out that nicotine is considered the single most toxic poison in her lab.

My conclusion is that we need to be super-vigilant. NOT to say "It is impossible to be fatally poisoned by NIC".

A young child could certainly be killed by 100mg NIC, just by what is absorbed in the mouth, throat, esophagus, etc, before vomiting can ensue.

Hyperbole is not helping us, from whichever side it is coming from.

Amen. Its the same with household chemicals or anything elase that could hurt a child. Nicotine has to be secured from toddlers or anyone who could hurt themselves with it.

 

[Harlen]

I'm telling my age
I have used nicotine to kill garden pest -yes as a pestacide - it worked out at 700mg/ml Yes used gloves and respirators you can get 100% nicotine and mix it with water to spray on your garden
Worked great too

 

[Anubuk]

If you have kids and or pets don't leave bottles, tools (syringes,etc), or anything with traces of e-juice on it laying around in the open. I do not have kids, just a few cats and fish (yeah my fish frequently come out and sit on the couch with us to play video games) but I still keep all my bottles in a big cigar box and a drawer. I never leave stuff sitting out even if I am getting up just for a second. When I am working on stuff and do have to get up (I work on a small tray) I will cover it and put the tray in a inaccessible spot (cats can get get to alot of places you wouldn't expect and my fish fly). Though a cat actually getting to the contents of the bottle is less likely than a small child I just do not take the risk. We shouldn't leave it to chance should something awful occur and it works against us. Not to mention the awful chance of a child or beloved pet getting sick and or dying.
Don't give them the fuel needed for them to succeed, they make up enough crap as it is to discredit us, we do not need to hand it to them ourselves.

 

[Anubuk]

I know what I just wrote seems obvious but there will always be the one person who doesn't heed the warnings or common sense.

 

[rolygate]

The first proper research into nicotine toxicity ever published was carried out by Prof Mayer of Graz in October 2013:
Archives of Toxicology 10.1007/s00204-013-1127-0, 4th Oct 2013.
How much nicotine kills a human? Tracing back the generally accepted lethal dose to dubious self-experiments in the nineteenth century - Springer

He determined that the currently accepted LD50 for nicotine is around 20 times too low.

He also showed that there is no known fatal dose for ingested (swallowed) nicotine in adults because it is expelled by a vomit reflex. For example 1,500mg ingested is known to be survivable without any lasting effect (the pain at the time, though, is reported as severe).

However it is important to note that children are an entirely different matter. They are far more sensitive and they may not have developed a vomit reflex. This is why there are tens of thousands of cases of poisoning annually in children for ingestion of many domestic materials. All vaping materials must be kept away from children - just as medicines, bleach and so on must be. They are all potentially highly toxic to children.

If everything dangerous to children were to be banned, life as we know it would come to a grinding halt. Parents need to take sensible precautions with children. Almost everything is dangerous to children. The concept that because something is dangerous to children it should be banned is simply ridiculous, and people saying so need to be reminded they are talking rubbish.

 

[Frenchfry1942]

Responsibility of adults has gone way down. It is a reason that we have politicians that want more government. I'll definitely vote for someone that espouses that.

 

[stevegmu]

Just like at work- where we have to develop engineering controls to prevent negligent people from getting injured, restrictions on what concentrations and bottle sizes will probably have to be enacted to protect those who can't protect themselves or others in their care...

 

[DeadbeatJeff]

The first proper research into nicotine toxicity ever published was carried out by Prof Mayer of Graz in October 2013:
Archives of Toxicology 10.1007/s00204-013-1127-0, 4th Oct 2013.
How much nicotine kills a human? Tracing back the generally accepted lethal dose to dubious self-experiments in the nineteenth century - Springer

He determined that the currently accepted LD50 for nicotine is around 20 times too low.

He also showed that there is no known fatal dose for ingested (swallowed) nicotine in adults because it is expelled by a vomit reflex. For example 1,500mg ingested is known to be survivable without any lasting effect (the pain at the time, though, is reported as severe).

However it is important to note that children are an entirely different matter. They are far more sensitive and they may not have developed a vomit reflex. This is why there are tens of thousands of cases of poisoning annually in children for ingestion of many domestic materials. All vaping materials must be kept away from children - just as medicines, bleach and so on must be. They are all potentially highly toxic to children.

If everything dangerous to children were to be banned, life as we know it would come to a grinding halt. Parents need to take sensible precautions with children. Almost everything is dangerous to children. The concept that because something is dangerous to children it should be banned is simply ridiculous, and people saying so need to be reminded they are talking rubbish.

who's talking about banning anything?

the point is to not be naive

the fact is that a kid could absorb a lethal dose of NIC from 10% concentrate before they could even vomit and/or despite vomiting. and TBH likely without even drinking it

 

[DeadbeatJeff]

As a note: the link you give indicates only generalizations, assumptions, and estimates... a couple anecdotes

and doesn't mention children at all

 

[rolygate]

For two weeks the media has been full of calls to ban ecigs because of alleged reports of poisoning incidents involving children (that all turn out to be inconsequential). It looks like some sort of concerted attempt at a smear campaign although the reason for the timing is not clear.

Mayer's work is acknowledged as the most complete analysis of the evidence for nicotine toxicity in humans and the LD50 will need to be adjusted upward as a result. (Maybe the link is not to the full study.)

 

[DeadbeatJeff]

For two weeks the media has been full of calls to ban ecigs because of alleged reports of poisoning incidents involving children (that all turn out to be inconsequential). It looks like some sort of concerted attempt at a smear campaign although the reason for the timing is not clear.

This I'm aware of, and it is certainly a concerted hit-job.

Mayer's work is acknowledged as the most complete analysis of the evidence for nicotine toxicity in humans and the LD50 will need to be adjusted upward as a result. (Maybe the link is not to the full study.)

Perhaps, yet to say "It is impossible to die from NIC poisoning" is as unhelpful as the other hyberbolic side. If a kid spilled 100mg NIC on themselves they could very easily absorb a lethal does... with no possibility of "vomiting". And I'm pretty sure a kid could drink enough to make vomiting moot.

Just saying. Winning an argument requires reasoned, objective analysis and explanation, not rhetoric and denial.