ECF Newsletter - FDA Considering Ban on Online Ecig Sales

[Uncle Willie]

Making distilled alcohol is illegal without a license, yet you can go on Amazon and buy a still, it's legal.

A link to that still would be greatly appreciated ..

To the crux of this Thread :: "Food and Drug Administrator Scott Gottlieb, at a breakfast Tuesday, said the agency is considering banning the online sale of the products, as easy access to vapes has resulted in an “epidemic” of underage use"

Blame the durn kids ..
https://yourteenmag.com/health/physical-health/what-is-juuling

As well, have any of you not seen the youngsters using a mod and blowing giant clouds .. ?? It's a thing, a real thing ..

 

[papergoblin]

I still think they don't know what to do and how to do it. They've painted themselves into a corner by classifying vaping and tobacco as equals. There are many prohibitionists that want it all gone and they will go after the FDA if they ban vaping but don't touch smoking. Then vapers will go after the FDA as well for the same thing.

That leaves them the only option of going after BT, which I honestly don't think the government can afford to do, let alone the representatives. They are facing the same thing they faced before enacting Prohibition, which anyone that knows their history, saw how that worked.

As a matter of fact, depending on what they do, it could be a violation of the 14th Ammendment. I'm leaning on the equal protection under the law part. Vapers and standard tobacco users are considered the same under the FDA. Therefore it would be difficult for them to create a law that punishes one type of nicotine user over another and or provides freedoms/privileges to one user over another.

That's really how the public vaping bans started. It was illegal to say you can vape but not smoke, when they are classified by the ruling body as the same thing. I could be wrong about it but I can see where this could be presented to the Supreme Court before implementation or afterwards. That of course, provides it's own set of problems right now since we don't have a full court.

Again I have no clue what they will do, none of us do. I just don't see it being as cut and dry as they are saying. It's all going to come down to how they word what they do and if it can legally stand or if it will be adjusted or completely thrown out. The FDA for all the bluster, is going to have to tread carefully and methodically, before doing anything. Remember they not only have to work within our Constitution, they also are part of NATO and must work within it as well. The majority of NATO partners support regulated vaping not banning (I know a lot of the laws are brutal).


EDIT: I mean USA being part of NATO, UN etc. not the FDA directly.

 

[bnrkwest]

I read this article and one parent is mad their kid bought Juul online using parents name. This is something a kid could do to buy anything! Not vaping's fault, the kid is the problem stealing parent's identity. The Parent wants nicotine banned! Well since nicotine is a tobacco product it can't be banned. In a way it is funny the pods are being attacked like Juul because 2 yrs ago there was talk that only pod types would be approved by FDA. Wierd, whatever gets popular gets attacked.
FDA declares youth vaping an epidemic, announces investigation, new enforcement

 

[papergoblin]

A link to that still would be greatly appreciated ..

To the crux of this Thread :: "Food and Drug Administrator Scott Gottlieb, at a breakfast Tuesday, said the agency is considering banning the online sale of the products, as easy access to vapes has resulted in an “epidemic” of underage use"

Blame the durn kids ..
https://yourteenmag.com/health/physical-health/what-is-juuling

As well, have any of you not seen the youngsters using a mod and blowing giant clouds .. ?? It's a thing, a real thing ..

Nope, no link, you want a still you have to do you're own leg work heathen, lol.

 

[Uncle Willie]

Nope, no link, you want a still you have to do you're own leg work heathen, lol.

It's just so tough to fabricate a good one these days at my age ..

 

[untar]

A link to that still would be greatly appreciated ..

TTB | Distilled Spirits | Penalties for Illegal Distilling
...like 2 seconds of google
In case you wanted the "other link"
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=alcohol+still

 

[rosesense]

I don't want to seem like a negative nelly but I think we tend to view this from a logical standpoint and gov agencies view from a political one. Having worked for a gov agency for decades and watching how politics overruled everything (including child safety), I don't have much faith in their being fair and logical about this.

Remember they can can do whatever they want if they 'deem' it to be a tobacco product. While I don't think they will go after flavorings, batts, vg and such, I think most other things can be fair game.

While money is a big thing for these agencies, the real driving force will always be politics.

 

[Uncle Willie]

 

[bnrkwest]

I don't want to seem like a negative nelly but I think we tend to view this from a logical standpoint and gov agencies view from a political one. Having worked for a gov agency for decades and watching how politics overruled everything (including child safety), I don't have much faith in their being fair and logical about this.

Remember they can can do whatever they want if they 'deem' it to be a tobacco product. While I don't think they will go after flavorings, batts, vg and such, I think most other things can be fair game.

While money is a big thing for these agencies, the real driving force will always be politics.

I agree, I trust no political party to be fair to vaping, it's all grandstanding with no logic.

 

[Baditude]

The FDA banned vape gear and supplies before I began vaping (2012), the ban was sometime between 2008 and 2010 if I recall correctly. Since 95% of the gear we used then (and now) was made outside of the US, customs seized the vape products when they reached US shores.

Online vape shops (B&M shops didn't exist then) in the US were forced to close because they had no product to sell. Many of them lost their pants and never recovered financially. Several months after the ban went into effect, a judge's court order blocked the ban but the damage was already done for most businesses. The judge ordered the FDA to come up with Deeming Regulations to regulate e-cigarettes, and its taken this long to get where we currently are.

 

[DaveP]

When's the last time you saw the FDA come out against teen drinking to the point where they wanted to ban alcohol sales to save the children? The FDA fight against a perfectly good solution to the smoking problem is being demonized unjustly when a law to require ID checks would fix the problem or at least deter teens from trying to buy them.

Sure, fake IDs would abound, but at least the store owners could refuse sales to those who were obviously underage unless they had a valid drivers license with a picture that showed a legal birth date. These days it's hard to fake a drivers license with a hologram image on it.

 

[bnrkwest]

The FDA banned vape gear and supplies before I began vaping (2012), the ban was sometime between 2008 and 2010. Since 95% of the gear we used then (and now) was made outside of the US, customs seized the vape products. Online vape shops in the US were forced to close because they had no product to sell. Many of them lost their pants and never recovered financially. After several months, a judge's court order blocked the ban but the damage was already done for most businesses. The judge ordered the FDA to come up with Deeming Regulations to regulate e-cigarettes, and its taken this long to get where we currently are.

I remember in 2009 when I tried my first ecig, the fear was it would all be banned. Products weren't very good back then so I went back to smoking until 2011. So I remember those times!

 

[rosesense]

When's the last time you saw the FDA come out against teen drinking to the point where they wanted to ban alcohol sales to save the children? The FDA fight against a perfectly good solution to the smoking problem is being demonized unjustly when a law to require ID checks would fix the problem or at least deter teens from trying to buy them.

Sure, fake IDs would abound, but at least the store owners could refuse sales to those who were obviously underage unless they had a valid drivers license with a picture that showed a legal birth date. These days it's hard to fake a drivers license with a hologram image on it.

It has never been a problem for teens to get cigs, they just have an older friend buy them. Same would apply to vape products or online sales, for that matter.

 

[untar]

Not to mention the capability of machines to help customs has increased considerably since then, hardware and software have made a few leaps ahead. International customs hubs will be very well equipped (at least they are here). Together with the spotlight being on wares from China anyways...

I'm still not sure if Gottlieb's performance is an act to dampen the pressure he's under or if he's really about to nuke vaping... I mean nothing has really happened yet.

 

[englishmick]

It's just so tough to fabricate a good one these days at my age ..

A columnist for the Times in the UK used to go home to Ireland once a year, he would pick up some bootleg whiskey and write about it in his column when he got back.

I read his column one year, probably in the 80's. He spent a week there and couldn't find any real hooch. All the old bootleggers were using freezers. They put wine in shallow baking trays on racks in freezers. Apparently at just the right temp the water freezes out leaving the alcohol behind. After several cycles they end up with the level of alcohol they need.

I've read all the links here about the latest FDA stuff. It's really hard to figure out where they are going. Doesn't seem like they even know yet. My guess is if they go ahead they are likely to nibble away at it rather than doing it all at once. Maybe they start by going making it harder to buy pods, or buy flavored juice on-line. Try a few small steps and see if they get away with it without too much pain.

That's if they really want to go after vaping big time, which isn't clear to me.

I'm not taking chances though. Protecting myself on the nic front.

 

[Uncle Willie]

Young folks like trendy, that's just the way it is ..

I use a JUUL sometimes .. (and, I'm not ashamed to admit it .. ) .. it packs a pretty good nic punch .. I can only imagine what hitting one at the age of 14 must be like ..

 

[Baditude]

I don't understand the FDA at all, they do not make sense. Are they trying to kill vaping all together? Has that been their goal?

Have you been living under a rock? You've been around here long enough to know that the FDA is protecting the financial interests of BT and BP. All of the FDA directors in the last decade have a past with either BT or BP. A huge percentage of the FDA's operating budget comes from BT and BP. The FDA is not about to cut off the hand that feeds them. The vaping industry contributes nothing financially to the FDA, so they are not all that interested in keeping it solvent.

I remember when BT got into ecigs we were all appalled but now since they are in it to survive they could help save the vaping. They have the lobbyists. We have all these new products out that were not supposed to be allowed after deeming but that has not been enforced so maybe things can ease up???

Those lobbyists for BT have been very clever in influencing the FDA so that future regulations will favor the products offered by BT. "Closed system" e-cigarettes like Blu and Vuse. BT will dominate as the only source for all liquid nicotine.

 

[Uncle Willie]

I'm not taking chances though. Protecting myself on the nic front.

I stashed a More Than Life Expectancy hoard some years ago .. during one of the Previous Big Scares .. I'm also confident in saying that, whenever a Big Scare comes down, the Sellers see a nice uptick in sales volume .. so, on the short term, it's good for business ..

Besides, if the FDA did not blow out of their butts these type of statements on a fairly regular basis .. what would we have to talk about .. ??

 

[jandrew]

Remember, anything the FDA does about the "teen vaping problem" isn't about the "teen vaping problem" --- that "problem" is merely an opportunity to act.

My fear would be onerous regulations on nicotine --- like a 20mg/ml cap on all sales and transport of nicotine, and special(1) licencing and handling requirements for any "lab" working with higher concentrations.

(1) meaning, expensive and full of hoops, hurdles, and paperwork that existing pharmaceutical or BT companies could easily deal with, but that might sink many existing e-liquid companies.

 

[Uncle Willie]

Remember, anything the FDA does about the "teen vaping problem" isn't about the "teen vaping problem" --- that "problem" is merely an opportunity to act.

Whether or not that statement is true, the Young Folks are giving them the ammunition .. as a Semi-Libertarian, I say, let the Kids vape away .. since we all agree it's relatively safe, right .. ?? .. and, who knows, it could be a solution to the Ritalin / Adderall Epidemic that no one seems to decry ..