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Establishments Banning E-Cigs - 2 reasons

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Anjaffm

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@Mac TechVapr:

well said indeed :thumbs:

@NicoHog:

Hm.. when I see your postings and your nickname, somehow, out of nowhere, an old saying in my mother tongue comes into my head: "Was kümmert es die Eiche, wenn sich die Schweine an ihr kratzen?" = Why should it bother the oak tree if the hogs rub up against it?

A funny thing, memory. Quite inexplicable at times .... :)
 

MacTechVpr

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The million dollar question is whether the state will be (unjustly) emboldened by widespread private bans.

Exactly. Obnoxious vapers are a detraction from the subtle but powerful influences now being entertained against business. And the effect, the cost, incalculable and widespread to our economy. Another bold experiment in social engineering. But only one.
 

Fulgurant

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Incidentally, I stumbled across a morbidly hilarious story about one North Dakota woman's approach to this evening's festivities: N.D. woman to hand out "fat letters" to obese kids during Halloween - CBS News

I only mention it because the story describes the same kind of nosy self-righteousness that we're up against. It's worth remembering that although there may be obnoxious vapers out there, they're vastly outnumbered by, and far more charming than, obnoxious ANTZ and their ilk. ;)
 

Uma

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Which is why I didn't use it for an argument.

I said guns and vaping can't even be part of the same discussion when talking Constitutional rights. :)

And what if they decided to ban tv's? Radios? Microwave ovens? Automobiles? Those are all consumer products... We don't have rights to the consumer products we've purchased? An anti can knock on my door and remove my gun, my tv, my microwave, my radio, my safer alternative EC, and any other product the anti declares should be banned?
Then I declare for all antis to be banned from the internet, from the tv, from radio, from print.
Thanks for the tip!
 

Jman8

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How do these two people find common cause? They are both good people who want to vape in their own way.

John Smith thinks the way to protect our right to vape is to "full court press" the FDA (and it's allies who want to regulate vaping into something less than it is today). He believes that the practice of vaping publicly is an opportunity for each vaper to enjoy the fruits of the decision to quit smoking, and an opportunity to educate the public about the habit. He sees the FDA, BT, and BP as his enemies. He supports CASAA in an active way.

Jim Doe wants to urge every vaper to go outside and vape in the smoking section. He thinks anyone who vapes outside of a smoking section is selfish and the reason we are seeing vaping bans. He feels that appearing humble and compliant will give us the best possible outcome from the FDA, local governments, etc. He views vapors who misbehave and "rock the boat" as his enemies. He supports the FDA, hopes for regulations to make his juice safer, and refuses to participate in CASAA since he views many members as extremists.

How do those two form a coherent team?

I feel the path to coherent team work here is to challenge each other, in a respectful way.
Having persons in the discussion who have ability to acknowledge / respect the other position is of great help. Sets an example for those in either camp who feel ultra righteous and are expressing themselves as if there is no wiggle room from their position.
But the challenge of each position, while respectable, must be dealt with courage and honesty.

With that said, I've raised questions to those who oppose indoor vaping, and I have not seen responses in this thread to those questions.

IMO, what we are up against with vaping indoors is misinformation. And is why I think the 'don't vape indoors' position doesn't have a solid footing. "Be respectful/polite" sounds like solid footing until you realize that there are people in the fold who are willing to engage in kicking people out of the room for no other reason than 'it just looks bad.' Of all the responses in the vein of 'why I choose not to vape in public' I see them all based on misinformation and not wanting to perpetuate that misinformation.

If bans are put into place that result in property owners not having rights to determine what is allowed on their property (i.e. what 'they' did with smoking), the Jim Doe's will plausibly view that as, 'see, I told you Mr. Smith that your rocking the boat would lead to this. If only you would've listened to me.'

IMO, saying someone can't vape anywhere within 3 blocks of a hospital is akin to saying no one can use a mobile device anywhere within 3 blocks of hospital. If I were in the camp that said no one should use their mobile device anywhere on or near the grounds of a hospital, I'd expect to be reasonably challenged on that position, with questions that dealt with my perception of problems that would result in people using their mobile devices in such situations. If I stuck to, 'it's the respectful thing to not do this' and that's all I got, then that stubborn streak will not lead to a coherent team approach for the community.

Thus education is key, but might take awhile. Almost all bans with regards to vaping are ones I see as temporary. I see them occurring because of the misinformed perspective that assumes vaping = smoking. When enough decision makers are made aware of that falsehood, the tide will change. Here in 2013, the vaping movement is just now coming out from the underground position it maintained for a half decade. In the olden days (i.e. before 1990), the shift to inform the masses may've taken a good 20+ years before people realize they were greatly misinformed about a subject. Here in the information age, I'm not certain how fast a shift could occur, but I'd reckon within 10 years or less, the misinformation tide will turn.

Funny thing about politics, the people that are most oppressed tend to have the most power, even while on the surface of things, the exact opposite always appears to be true. The pendulum may be swinging one way right now, but it is bound to swing back the other way. Misinformation tends to crumble at the altar of truth.
 

Topwater Elvis

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And what if they decided to ban tv's? Radios? Microwave ovens? Automobiles? Those are all consumer products... We don't have rights to the consumer products we've purchased? An anti can knock on my door and remove my gun, my tv, my microwave, my radio, my safer alternative EC, and any other product the anti declares should be banned?
Then I declare for all antis to be banned from the internet, from the tv, from radio, from print.
Thanks for the tip!

Everyone is an anti something.
We are all a part of 'they'.

Only one of your examples is protected by an actual right,,,round and round we go,,,
 

Uma

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Whaddup, Atty.

I think that (polite vaping) is the way to go. No harm in asking what the owner's position is, no harm in making sure vape-friendly places get some positive feedback on their decision.
I've never been turned down yet, in a restaurant, where I've asked the Hostess to sit me in a private area where I can stealth vape when needed. I've had to explain the term "stealth vape" and once explained, they light up like an Xmas tree, dismiss the thought of me even feeling the need to ask, & proceed to seat me in a nice private area. Sometimes the process from seating to finish can take several hours. They like a calm, content, happy customer. :).
 

kristin

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But the very document that guarantees our rights doesn't exist to tell citizens what they can and cannot do. It exists to tell the government what it can and cannot do. Baldr may not be semantically correct, but he's correct in fact: the bedrock principle of any free society is that individuals can engage, without state interference, in any behavior against which there in no just or reasonable prohibition. In the absence of compelling evidence of a public health risk, the state must (but sadly, probably won't) allow individuals to decide for themselves whether they wish to vape, or whether they wish to allow vaping on their property.

The million dollar question is whether the state will be (unjustly) emboldened by widespread private bans.

To that point, the original post addresses the reasoning behind various establishments' banning of e-cigs. The OP, in my view, speaks poorly on that subject, or perhaps it would be fairer to say that the OP is awkwardly framed. It's certainly true that vapers' behavior serves as a catalyst for certain business' bans of e-cigs, but those bans in most cases would have occurred anyway. Our culture abhors cigarette smoke, and the authorities have gone to great lengths to draw a false equivalence between e-cigs and regular cigarettes. Thus, if a business receives complaints about e-cigs, the most likely cause of those complaints isn't that vapers act obnoxiously; the most likely cause is an overreaction to any sighting of a vaper in the act, discrete or not, polite or not.

Obnoxious vapers exist, but to spend any time emphasizing their influence on the larger picture is to lose all perspective.

As a libertarian, I agree 100% with your first paragraph quoted! While there is no "right to vape," vaping (a legal activity that has not been shown to be a public health hazard) should be covered under some of our actual rights - it's under liberty and freedom, maybe even "the right to pursue happiness," for some of us, lol.

I agree that quite a few businesses would probably ban vaping regardless. (No shirt, no shoes, no service plus...no vaping allowed.) It is perfectly acceptable for them to exercise THEIR actual property ownership rights. As I mentioned before, I don't really care about the ability (not right) to vape in Walmart or Applebee's. What I care about is public spaces being affected by laws and ordinances that are much harder to change. Business attitudes can be changed by voting with your dollar. If a bar in my area doesn't allow vaping, fine - I'll spend my money at one that does. But if every bar owner is prohibited from exercising THEIR actual right to allow legal, non-offensive (to his customers) activities by law, I have a HUGE problem with that. And those laws are what really matter, because they DO affect the rights of people to enjoy freedoms on private property and publicly-owned spaces and are much harder to reverse.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Belligerent vapers may help get vaping banned from Starbucks, but they have nothing to do with city and county-wide bans. Folks should understand that those are two completely different cause-and-effect issues. And we need to prioritize - which is worse? Not being able to vape in Walmart or not being able to vape in your own condo?

The key thing is to not assume you cannot vape in a no smoking area, actually take the trouble to ask and then vape if it's OK. This accomplishes 2 things - doesn't infringe upon the property owner's rights (shows courtesy) and then actually exposes more people to how inoffensive vaping really is, so the general public can see the fallacy of anti-vaping legislation and ordinances.

If we just assume it's not ok and avoid vaping just because smoking isn't allowed, it accomplishes nothing.

Someone had to be the first one to wear that first bikini on the beach before it became acceptable and then routine. ;) If no one ever sees us, how can public vaping become acceptable and routine? So get out there and be seen - just make sure you are respecting the rights of private property owners as you do it. It's as simple as that.
 
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madqatter

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Uma

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Incidentally, I stumbled across a morbidly hilarious story about one North Dakota woman's approach to this evening's festivities: N.D. woman to hand out "fat letters" to obese kids during Halloween - CBS News

I only mention it because the story describes the same kind of nosy self-righteousness that we're up against. It's worth remembering that although there may be obnoxious vapers out there, they're vastly outnumbered by, and far more charming than, obnoxious ANTZ and their ilk. ;)
No doubt part of the Robert woods foundation's campaign for a better world. They forget to mention their invovement with Pfizer and diet pills, politics and sin taxing...
 

jpargana

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Incidentally, I stumbled across a morbidly hilarious story about one North Dakota woman's approach to this evening's festivities: N.D. woman to hand out "fat letters" to obese kids during Halloween - CBS News

I only mention it because the story describes the same kind of nosy self-righteousness that we're up against. It's worth remembering that although there may be obnoxious vapers out there, they're vastly outnumbered by, and far more charming than, obnoxious ANTZ and their ilk. ;)


Priceless...!

:lol:
 

kristin

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I wouldn't dream of vaping someplace I wouldn't smoke. Is that just me being weird? I don't know, I don't like the hassle of people in my face about anything, so I just try to avoid it. Of course, I would vape anywhere outside and have never had anyone say anything to me.

It depends - what places are included in where you wouldn't smoke? Why wouldn't you smoke there? Does the same reasoning for not smoking apply to e-cigarette vapor?

When I was a smoker, I wouldn't dream of smoking in my house. For one, I have children who I didn't want to expose to smoke and have seeing me smoke; and two, I hated the stale smell in houses where people smoked inside. None of that applies to vaping, so I now vape someplace I would never have dreamed of smoking. ;)

There are a lot of places they are banning vaping along with smoking for reasons that may apply to smoke but do not with vapor. What sense does that make?
 

madqatter

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Belligerent vapers may help get vaping banned from Starbucks, but they have nothing to do with city and county-wide bans.... And we need to prioritize - which is worse? Not being able to vape in Walmart or not being able to vape in your own condo?
Agreed. :2c:


Or, rather:

2c fuse.jpg
 

Uma

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I wouldn't dream of vaping someplace I wouldn't smoke. Is that just me being weird? I don't know, I don't like the hassle of people in my face about anything, so I just try to avoid it. Of course, I would vape anywhere outside and have never had anyone say anything to me.
I don't like how the anti's steal MY air, my private space, by declaring ALL air, all space to be constitutionally theirs and theirs alone. They are the ones who need to get out of other peoples space, face. Contrary to what they say, as a human being who also pays taxes, supports my community, I do have a constitutional right to my space.

As to those who still quote the debunked studies, shame on you.
 
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