Establishments Banning E-Cigs - 2 reasons

[EddardinWinter]

It was very hot in the room; I don't think the hotel modified the thermostat to account for the sheer number of people in the crowd. And, yes, humid and cloudy. In person, it sometimes seemed cloudier than these photos. It felt good to go outdoors.


Most of us, I would assume, off and on.


I was surprised they didn't turn the thermostat down a little.

This ballroom is too interior to the building be able to get good air circulation going.

I hope they choose another venue next year. This one has been outgrown by the event.

What is needed is a room with an HVAC system that can provide a high number of air changes per minute. There are a number of these facilities in the area. I daresay we exceeded the capacity of the ventilation, and I bet the CO2 levels were over 1200 PPM. This probably had more to do with the oppressive feel of the room than anything else. The humidity didn't help either.





Tapped out

 

[madqatter]

I hope they choose another venue next year. This one has been outgrown by the event.

No doubt about it. I had called the hotel in advance to ask about parking and they'd said, "Oh, we have plenty of parking. No problem." In reality, people were parked all over the neighborhood.

Vapercon needs a bigger venue!

 

[generic mutant]

You bring up a very good point, Anjaffm, I amend my previous post to use more suitable language. I think you are correct about this. I will refer to this as a dependence henceforth, too. Thanks!

(I still don't feel that anyone can, thru their actions, compel me to go back to cigarettes though, as that is still a choice that is entirely up to me, and entirely within my own power to choose. )

It's an aside, but I'm not sure there's any meaningful distinction with nicotine.

Have you ever heard of people losing their jobs and going on crime sprees to feed their B&H habit?

(at today's prices, it's probably only a matter of time... )

 

[TokyoTony]

can't believe this thread is still going..holy crap!

 

[EddardinWinter]

Merriam-Webster:

Full Definition of ADDICTION

1
: the quality or state of being addicted <addiction to reading>
2
: compulsive need for and use of a habit-forming substance (as ......, nicotine, or alcohol) characterized by tolerance and by well-defined physiological symptoms upon withdrawal; broadly : persistent compulsive use of a substance known by the user to be harmful

Full Definition of DEPENDENCE

1
: the quality or state of being dependent; especially : the quality or state of being influenced or determined by or subject to another
2
: reliance, trust
3
: one that is relied on
4
a : drug addiction <developed a dependence on painkillers>
b : habituation 2b
See dependence defined for English-language learners »
See dependence defined for kids »

So generic mutant, I would say they are certainly synonyms.

However, Addiction carries a much higher stigma than dependence. Dependence, due to its more diffused meaning possibilities is a less explosive way to describe the user of nicotine. I would say that dependence is the more accurate term as well, since vapers cover a broad range of nicotine "need".

Ironic, that nicotine use is the first cited specifically by the definition for addiction, yes?

 

[generic mutant]

It depends... I've worked with drug addicts, and for things like opioids I think there is a meaningful distinction.

There are high-functioning people, and then there are people who lead chaotic lives, where the need for the drug overrides all other concerns and normal behaviour constraints. Many people distinguish between the two as 'dependence' and 'addiction'.

But yes, in common usage, I'd say they're the same. And I'm sure once you delve into the neuropsychology / physiology of it, the distinction is more clear (whether they use those terms or not...)

Edit - I guess it's a distinction between connotation rather than denotation. I still use 'addiction' to describe my situation, but do as you will...

 

[EddardinWinter]

I will say one other thing. Citing this extreme case of the foggy, dense, vapor-filled, and somewhat uncomfortable atmosphere in the Ball Room as a reason restaurants won't permit banning vaping is a bit of a stretch IMHO.

The vaper rate in that over-crowded space was nearly 100%. The number of "cloud chasers" in that space was uncommonly high. So there were the most extreme vapers in the room and a number of vapors that will likely never be recreated in any normal circumstance. Sure, it is an illustration of the fact that vapor can accumulate and doesn't condense/diffuse immediately.

I would contend that it does in normal circumstances. In an 1000 square foot restaurant dining room (20 foot x 50 foot) with a 10 foot ceiling height, you have a volume of the space of 10,000 cubic feet. The most you would ever expect in such a space would be five or six vapors in the entire room. In this case, the vapor would not concentrate, saturate the air, and make it nearly impossible to permit the vapor to become diluted into the total air mass. If the space was properly ventilated with say 2500 CFM of supply air, you would get fifteen air changes per hour and the effect on the space air from casual vaping would be virtually negligible.

The air could not dilute the vapor here, due to the high vapor output per cubic foot, the ventilation system being overwhelmed, and probably the compressors were not energized since even though the space was quite muggy, it was not hot. I judged the temperature in the room to be about 72-74 degrees F. It felt much warmer since the humidity level was approaching 100%. If the thermostat was simply looking at sensible temperatures, and energized the cooling system only when sensible temperatures reached 74 degrees F, it may not have had any ventilation at all 90% of the time!

In this situation, the fan SHOULD have been set to run continuously, but most owners don't realize that...and just left it like it always is set. If the room were occupied by 200 bankers, 74 degrees would have seemed just fine, and CO2 could never elevate due to infiltration from other spaces.

EDIT: Clarified paragraph 4, paragraph 2

changed banning to vaping...

 

[AttyPops]

Dependance refers to the need for a substance by the body...albeit temporarily...without the substance they would be missing the effect and suffer some negative consequences because their body as adapted to it. They don't necessarily crave the drug however. The adaptation can be very short term and the body can revert back to "normal" very quickly. Neurons aren't necessarily modified, but brain chem may take time to bounce back. They could suffer from depression if going off of anti-depressants. The anti-depressant is not addictive in and of itself, however it is used because of a pre-existing underlying depression. So they bounce back to a depressed state. However, that was the "initial" state.

With addiction, you crave the drug...not simply need it to treat other things.

Addiction is a neurobiological disease that has genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors. It is characterized by one or more of the following behaviors:

Poor control over drug use
Compulsive drug use
Continued use of a drug despite physical, mental and/or social harm
A craving for the drug

Bolding added. Source: Opioids: Addiction vs. Dependence

It may be that different countries classify things differently. However, what we're debating is the classification, not the actual drug or it's effects. Although the effect can vary for many...some people say they are not addicted to nic and can take it or leave it. The funny thing is they frequently take it, rather than leave it.

Long term nic use results in your neurons/brain being modified and adapted to the continual presence of nic. The effect is stronger when combined with other tobacco alkaloids and chemicals, as I understand it.

So nicotine, just nicotine, is still considered addictive in the USA. At least, that's how I understand it.

To me, dependance is the need for it...aka it's not a recreational choice, but a requirement to function "normally" (without pain, or without depression, etc) on a non-temporary basis. Addiction is a craving.

To many, "addict" has other connotations not normally seen with nic use....wrecking lives and having mind-altering ("getting high") effects associated with the drug. However, that's not strictly true of the term, only the results of many, but not all, drugs...particularly the "recreational" ones.

Nic is a pretty good drug, like caffeine, in that it doesn't destroy lives as easily as others.

 

[madqatter]

it was not hot. I judged the temperature in the room to be about 72-74 degrees F.

I'm sorry, but there is absolutely no freaking way that it was that cool in that room. We were burning up.

 

[EddardinWinter]

I'm sorry, but there is absolutely no freaking way that it was that cool in that room. We were burning up.

Fully saturated (100% humidity) air at 74 degrees is stifling to normal people, and it should be!. It has the same total enthalpy as 86 degree air at 60% humidity.

Trust me, Psychrometrics is my thing.

The high humidity prevents your body from rejecting heat in the way you normally do. When you sweat in a saturated space, the evaporation of the sweat takes forever. This is why 98 degrees in Virginia feels like 115 degrees in a desert, since your sweat just drenches your clothes and very little of it evaporates. Make sense?

 

[Anjaffm]

To me, dependance is the need for it...aka it's not a recreational choice, but a requirement to function "normally" (without pain, or without depression, etc) on a non-temporary basis.

Precisely. Nicotine consumption has a beneficial effect on many people. That is why many of those people use it. It gives them something. It allows them to function "normally".

(And don't get me started on the expectation nowadays that all people are supposed to "function normally". Like machines. That is a different subject entirely. Let's just say that the consumption of nicotine helps many people to even get close to attaining such a desired performance. Sorry, my bookmark to the link to one respective article from South Africa is at home. I can add it later, if desired.)

 

[generic mutant]

Interesting post AttyPops, thanks.

It seems that there's an area of ambiguity, but dependence leans more towards the physiological and addiction the psycho-social.

Perhaps dependence is the better term for what a lot of us are suffering - the lethargy, depression and illness that can be associated with giving up smoking.

But there's definitely a psycho-social aspect to it as well. If I've had a few beers when I'm trying to give up I'll rummage through my ashtrays for cigarette butts. That seems like the "seeking a hit" thing, and doesn't have much to do with self-medication.

Edit - as an aside to this aside, I should probably just get rid of my ashtrays...

 

[EddardinWinter]

Interesting post AttyPops, thanks.

It seems that there's an area of ambiguity, but dependence leans more towards the physiological and addiction the psycho-social.

Perhaps dependence is the better term for what a lot of us are suffering - the lethargy, depression and illness that can be associated with giving up smoking.

But there's definitely a psycho-social aspect to it as well. If I've had a few beers when I'm trying to give up I'll rummage through my ashtrays for cigarette butts. That seems like the "seeking a hit" thing, and doesn't have much to do with self-medication.

Edit - as an aside to this aside, I should probably just get rid of my ashtrays...

Nicotine and smoking are not the same dependence/addiction! You are getting WTAs from smoking that you will not get from MOST e-liquid (among many other things). Have you ever tried any WTA liquids, generic mutant?

I bet they would make your feel better when you are having a few pints....

 

[CES]

Does ANYONE have a valid definition of “addiction”? | Anti-THR Lies and related topics

just sayin'

 

[generic mutant]

WTAs are something I've been reading about, and I might give it a go at some point. Unfortunately, I suspect it's harder to get hold of the variety of e-liquid here in the UK that you enjoy over the pond - at least at reasonable expense.

My current strategy is just to keep a mod on hand at all times, and if I still really want a cigarette, have one. Seems to be working to reduce my cigarette use massively, which is nice, but too early to tell whether I'll have to try more drastic measures, or whether it'll just peter out to nothing.

Still, when I'm in the pub it goes out the window. I've heard there's a poorly understood but powerful neurological interaction between alcohol and nicotine, and certainly that intuitively seems true. I can have a few sips of beer and *immediately* start craving a cigarette, even if I've not thought about one for a day or two...

Throw away my ashtrays, then stay out of pubs...

 

[EddardinWinter]

WTAs are something I've been reading about, and I might give it a go at some point. Unfortunately, I suspect it's harder to get hold of the variety of e-liquid here in the UK that you enjoy over the pond - at least at reasonable expense.

My current strategy is just to keep a mod on hand at all times, and if I still really want a cigarette, have one. Seems to be working to reduce my cigarette use massively, which is nice, but too early to tell whether I'll have to try more drastic measures, or whether it'll just peter out to nothing.

Still, when I'm in the pub it goes out the window. I've heard there's a poorly understood but powerful neurological interaction between alcohol and nicotine, and certainly that intuitively seems true. I can have a few sips of beer and *immediately* start craving a cigarette, even if I've not thought about one for a day or two...

Throw away my ashtrays, then stay out of pubs...

But if the neurological interaction is strictly nicotine and alcohol, why does the PV not suffice? Why do you specifically crave a smoke?

You see, I contend it is other things in tobacco that make smoking much more addictive than vaping. Nicotine IMHO is just a part of the dependence/addiction.

 

[Anjaffm]

Have you ever tried any WTA liquids

In Germany, we do not have those.
We do, however, know this feeling, especially among beginning vapers:

I can have a few sips of beer and *immediately* start craving a cigarette, even if I've not thought about one for a day or two...

What we do and recommend in Germany - in the absence of WTA liquids - is the following:

1. get a strong-tasting tobacco flavored liquid (and I mean: strong-tasting, cigar taste is good)
2. get a liquid that can be combined with that taste, e.g. caramel or vanilla
3. make sure the nicotine content is enough
4. go to bar, have drinks with friends
...
5. "habit" will say: "give me my usual tobacco flavor with those nice drinks. Now!"
6. mix the strong tasting tobacco flavor liquid with the sweet tasting liquid in the tank of your PV, remember enough nic content, generally about 18 mg nic / ml for beginners (or even 24 for such cases, depends on the person)
7. vape
8. feel your taste buds relax when they taste the lovely flavor that they have been used to, for decades, when drinking
..
9. as the evening (and drinking) progresses, you may wish to mix together more tobacco flavor liquid and less sweet liquid. Alcohol tends to deaden the sense of taste
10. beware of the rest in the tank the next morning. What tasted just lovely and satisfying in the evening, with the drinks, will "take your socks off" the next morning

it is other things in tobacco that make smoking much more addictive than vaping

Yes, it is. (sorry, link at home)
And - in the absence of those WTA liquids - in Germany, we make do with strong tobacco flavor and enough nicotine.

And yes:
About 3 weeks after switching from smoking to 100% vaping (with nicotine (!) ), most of us go through withdrawal symptoms. Withdrawal for the other substances in tobacco smoke. Those substances that cause the addiction to tobacco smoke when combined with nicotine.

(again sorry, all bookmarks at home)

 

[EddardinWinter]

Well, the powers that be with AEMSA are doing their level best to prohibit the use of WTAs in US manufactured e-liquid, too.

They could be found to have some harmful effects, so there is cause for concern, we simply don't know yet.

But isn't potential harmful effects better than known harmful effects of combusted tobacco? I think making more people trying to quit smoking aware of this option serves the public better. Imagine if you could vape WTAs only when you are drinking, and go back to the "safer" normal liquid in rare moments of sobriety...

 

[CES]

One of the effects of alcohol is to decrease the effects of the neurotransmitter GABA - this leads to the disinhibition that people experience with alcohol (it also leads to the lack of coordination). Nicotine can result in increased release of GABA, which counterbalances the loss of function.

We get conditioned to expect the effects, so as soon as we taste the alcohol, we may experience a drive to counterbalance them. It also may be why some people who rarely smoke tend to pick up a cig when they drink a lot.

(I'm not discounting the additional effects of WTAs, just not talking about them in this post)

 

[Anjaffm]

wow, CES! I did not know that! Thank you!