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Ethanol Extract - Full Strong Buzz & Moderate flavor

Discussion in 'Liquid Extraction From Tobacco' started by Lastlokean, Dec 13, 2013.

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  1. Lastlokean

    Lastlokean Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 12, 2010
    Red Wing, MN
    Edit: Not sure if this is OK by the rules... I understand currently the whole discussion on WTA extractions seems no-no... But this doesn't seem any more dangerous than the NET extractions to me.... Sure there is trace ethanol in the alkaloid syrup... I add a few % ethanol to my diy ejuice anyway for a little added throat hit.

    So this extraction was just a test... Did 3 runs, 1 hot, 1 room temp, and one freezing cold on a large tub of Drum Halfzware shag with Wisconsin quality everclear.

    Soaked tobacco in ethanol for ~6 hours for all 3 runs. Filtered with a vacuum filter. Evaporated down to a thick flavorful syrup, at room temperature with a fan in front of an open window. This was weighed and assumed to be near pure tobacco alkaloids. This was then diluted into 50pg/50vg mix at ~24 mg/ml.

    The hot run, was discarded it turned dark black and smelled kinda like my old ash tray... Nasty.

    The room temperature was a very thick and almost molasses colored. It smelled quite a bit like the cigarette tobacco it came from. However this one never seemed to fully 'dissolve' in the PG/VG mix. I'm assuming it pulled a bit of plant oils.

    The cold extract is Beautiful. The resulted syrup is a very light golden color. It smells better than this delicious tobacco did out of the bag. So far at 24 mg/ml of this stuff its pretty easy to catch a strong light headed buzz. Have not added nicotine or any other flavoring.
     
  2. Blitzdonlife

    Blitzdonlife Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 24, 2012
    Central Texas
    This sounds very interesting. Please update us on how bad it gunks your coils/wick, whether it burns much, and what type of juice delivery device you are testing it on and at what power/voltage. Also, you didn't have to add any nicotine? What mg/ml nic do you usually vape? Subscribed :)
     
  3. Blitzdonlife

    Blitzdonlife Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 24, 2012
    Central Texas
    Oh yeah, forgot to ask. How cold was your extraction? Did you stick it in the fridge or freezer, or just cooled the PGA first asnd then let it warm to room temp over 6 hours?
     
  4. Lastlokean

    Lastlokean Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 12, 2010
    Red Wing, MN
    Sorry on the details... In terms of cold I froze the bottle of everclear and tobacco for a solid 12 hours before mixing. They sat in the freezer over the soak time. So far it hasn't gunked up the coil much, but I've only been using this juice for 2 days now... I'd guess around 5 ml have been vaped of it so far. I'll be sure and update as I go along.

    If it matters I am using a stainless steel genesis wick with a 28 gauge kanthal coil metering at .72 ohms. So far it is still vaping great... The flavor is very unique and present yet somehow subtle... I feel it could use a little added sweetness. This morning it was my first vape of the day and I had to set down the device halfway through my morning coffee from the head rush...

    I just ordered a nicotine test kit from WLs just to do some testing on how strong this turned out... From my experience so far the resulting oil is indeed very high in nicotine and other tobacco alkaloids.
     
  5. LucentShadow

    LucentShadow Super Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 28, 2011
    Michigan, USA
    Sounds interesting. I would not have thought of trying a cold ethanol extraction. My stupid State makes it difficult and expensive to try, though. PGA is illegal here, and Everclear is 151 proof. I suppose it may work well enough, though. I can pick some of the good stuff up in Indiana, I guess.

    It would seem that the warmer extractions result in more extracted plant material (flavor,) so one could adjust that aspect if one wishes.

    Did you happen to get a ratio of the reduced extract weight to starting material weight?

    Anyway, I'll also be interested in hearing any further observations on this extraction method.
     
  6. Lastlokean

    Lastlokean Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 12, 2010
    Red Wing, MN
    No problems so far... Handed out a few samples to a few friends who vape & smoke... So far all around positive comments.

    I'm planning on doing another run of this after Christmas on Samson Halfzware and American Spirit... Will upload some photos for the curious.
     
  7. holy_handgrenade

    holy_handgrenade Senior Member ECF Veteran

    May 20, 2013
    Phoenix, AZ, USA
    Very interested in hearing a bit more about this. However, it's not really breaking rules as you're likely not getting much in the way of WTA; with only a 6 hour soak, I'm also expecting that this isnt a full extraction to begin with. PGA is pretty efficient, but even in the industry for flavor extracts, it usually takes a much longer time; between 48 and 72 hours with heat, or longer than a week at room temperature.

    I'd imagine that a cold (in the freezer as you're suggesting) extraction would be upwards of 2 or 3 weeks for maximum efficiency; however it may be a more complete extraction as it's taking longer to perform. In addition, the freezing is breaking the cellular structure of the plant/organic material allowing for the PGA to absorb more than heat or room temps would provide alone, while at the same time preserving heat sensitive volotiles.

    Just for the science part; a solution/masceration is incapable of extracting or isolating any individual compounds; so while I will agree you're getting WTA in the mix, it's heavily diluted in the solution to possibly as high as trace amounts.
     
  8. PLANofMAN

    PLANofMAN Signature Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 9, 2012
    Woodburn, OR
    I'd have to agree with holy_handgrenade on this. It does sound like you got a nice NET extraction, though.
     
  9. Aheadatime

    Aheadatime Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 20, 2013
    USA
    Any updates on what mg nicotine this ended up being? In the OP you said 24mg/ml, yet you also stated you never added any nicotine nor had a test kit. Did you mean to say you treated this as if it was a 100mg base and went from there, meaning 2.4% extract was added to your recipe?
     
  10. PLANofMAN

    PLANofMAN Signature Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 9, 2012
    Woodburn, OR
    "This was then diluted into 50pg/50vg mix at ~24 mg/ml." Sounds more like 2.4 ml of extract per 7.6 ml of 50/50 base, for total of 10ml. He could have made 100ml, but the formula would be the same.
     
  11. Aheadatime

    Aheadatime Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 20, 2013
    USA
    Er yeah, that's what I meant, thanks for the fix. I think he just treated his solvent as if it was 100mg/mL nicotine, so 24% is what I meant instead of 2.4%.
     
  12. Lastlokean

    Lastlokean Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 12, 2010
    Red Wing, MN
    I did not treat the solvent as it was 100 mg/ml. I treated the resulting oil as if it was pure nicotine. My steps are pretty clearly outlined in post 1. I soaked tobacco in cold alcohol. I filtered the alcohol. I evaporated the alcohol to yield a crude tobacco concentrate. This crude tobacco concentrate, which is obviously not 100% nicotine, was treated as 100% nicotine in the name of conservative safety. This was then used to used to create a 2.4% solution.

    Notice I specifically said I 'weighed' the resulting crude resin. This was then diluted based on MASS not on volume. Being as I have no idea the density of the resulting solid a volume/volume dilution makes very little sense. If you do not understand why you need to weigh nicotine and can not do 24 ml of pure nicotine in 76 ml of pg to get 24% you should not attempt any of this!

    So far my test sampling, including a sample of 5 people, all 5 have preferred this over the classical pure nicotine juice. 3 of the 5 have diluted the sample they were given because it was too strong. They unfortunately did not keep methodical notes on how much they diluted.

    Nicotine and harmine alkaloids are highly soluble in ethanol and water. For example, a moderately short ethanol soak of syrian rue will pull the majority of maoi harmine alkaloids. Actually soaking longer than multiple short soaks is pretty much only pulling the less soluble terpenes, oils and chlorophill.

    Nicotine is marginally soluble in PG/VG. This is why a NET extraction requires so much time to achieve efficiency. A 15-20 second ice cold ethanol rinse will pull the majority of the water soluble alkaloids aka nicotine and harmines(maois) while minimizing the pickup of other crap. Chlorophyll is nearly insoluble in cold ethanol. The quick and cold ethanol extraction is quite commonly practiced with the extraction of various other plants. I would rather get 50% of the nicotine and .1% of the chlorophyll than ~100% of everything the tobacco has to offer.

    Further testing is in progress.
     
  13. Chinook

    Chinook Super Member ECF Veteran

    Sep 16, 2013
    OR, USA
    I'm little bit confused about this extraction method. Are you trying to extract nicotine and/or flavor compounds that give tobacco its taste and aroma?

    Are the harmines what give the "taste" of tobacco?

    Thanks.
     
  14. LucentShadow

    LucentShadow Super Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 28, 2011
    Michigan, USA
    Chinook, this would seem to be a combination NET and WTA extraction. Most NET methods will get some portion of the alkaloids in tobacco, though they may also lose them or dilute them to various degrees. Most NET methods aim for taste, and are what I'd consider to be a 'dirty' vape with far too much of the plant material included. I realize that I'm more sensitive than many, but those methods cause me too much airway irritation to use.

    Harmine is one of the many alkaloids in tobacco. Nicotine is the most prevalent alkaloid in tobacco, but there are several others.

    This method seems to aim to get some essential oils and alkaloids, while hopefully leaving most of the tannins, chlorophyll, and other crud behind. Without all of the crud, it can be reduced for higher strength more easily. Using PGA as a solvent makes that part easier.

    This appeals to me, as nicotine-only liquid does not work for me, just as nicotine gum and patches don't. WTA liquids work for me, though. I also like lighter flavoring, which this would seem to be.

    This would probably not appeal to anyone who does not need WTA, or who likes robust NET flavoring.

    (As I see it, not having tried it yet. Lastlokean is welcome to correct any misinterpretation here :) )
     
  15. Blitzdonlife

    Blitzdonlife Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 24, 2012
    Central Texas
    Thank you for your work on this extraction method. Will you please reccomend a lower cost vacuum filtration setup?
     
  16. Lastlokean

    Lastlokean Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 12, 2010
    Red Wing, MN
    nicotine = alkaloid, stimulant in tobacco.
    harmine = alkaloid, mild reversible maoi. (mildly present in tobacco, present in other plants such as syrian rue.)

    terpine = commonly give lots of the smell / flavor.
    Chlorophyll = sticky green pigment / plant matter. You don't want this.
    tannins = bitter plant compound. You don't want this.
    other various plant oils = You probably don't want most of them.
    edit: search wikipedia.org for each of these terms if you want more details.

    LucentShadow you are pretty much right on. Goal is to get a little flavor with a clean full spectrum alkaloid extraction.

    The best ghetto vacuum filtration would probably be a big syringe with a cotton ball. Suck up through the cotton ball. May be slow going and infuriating. Strongly recommend proper lab procedure and equipment with all process. Just get a vacuum flask and a hand pump if you want to extract anything from anything on any kind of regular basis.

    Sorry for the lack of photos to date... Will do a nice little step by step guide in the coming week with photos for anyone else that wants to give this method a go.
     
  17. DVap

    DVap Nicotiana Alchemia Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 26, 2009
    Retired
    What was the weight of extracted tobacco and what was the weight of the semi-solid material obtained after blowing off most of the alcohol? Give a few figures and I can probably give you a fair estimate of the alkaloid content, but be prepared to be disappointed. The semi-solid material is going to be mostly non-alkaloid plant gunk.
     
  18. k3vin

    k3vin Unregistered Supplier ECF Veteran

    Aug 31, 2010
    OK USA
    Rue. Haven't heard that word in awhile. I used to extract it. But it's been so long now, I forget how I used too.. Lol..

    Anyway, since first reading about extraction of wta. I always beloved that cold extraction would be the way to go to pull out the most essence and least plant matter..

    Although I have thought of using a different solvent In my process the PGA is a most excellent start.

    I'm no chemist though, so I have yet to give it a shot, but your results have me very intrigued, and I will more than likely give this a shot in the coming week..
     
  19. Lastlokean

    Lastlokean Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 12, 2010
    Red Wing, MN
    PGA is a great solvent for this because:

    - It is a strong solvent.
    - It is volatile, evaporates readily, easy to concentrate.
    - It is food safe and very low in contaminates. Any solvent chosen will likely be consumed in trace amounts. People already vape PGA.
    - When cold it is selectively polar, very good at extracting alkaloids and leaving behind chlorophyll / non-polar oils.

    I don't want this thread to go into a discussion on dangerous chemicals / solvents.

    Being as I have only run this experiment once to date qualitative yields are not yet certain, however this first run left me with about 3.5 grams of thick golden oil from ~110 gram extraction leading to ~3.2% yield. There were obviously trace loses to evaporation tray, filters, and jars. At this point I am quite certain the oil resulting from a cold alcohol soak is quite potent.
     
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  20. PLANofMAN

    PLANofMAN Signature Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 9, 2012
    Woodburn, OR
    Dvap got 0.5 ml of alkaloids from a 100 gram extraction...
    http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blogs/dvap/4524-whole-tobacco-alkaloids-bit-history.html

    So whatever you have, it's not WTA. Maybe a clarified NET? Would that term work?

    Either way, it sounds both easy and simple to do. I'd want to know what kind of nicotine levels are in it, though. Not to put a damper on things, but you really should have tested that before using yourself and your five friends as guinea pigs.
     
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