Ethyl Maltol Crystals - Mixing ratio to PG to create sweetener

[DuaneNeveu]

My apologies if this exists somewhere, and I just couldn't find it. I did search, but found references only to 10% being the preferred mix. I didn't, however, find out the measurement of crystals (solid) to PG (liquid) to accomplish this final mixed ratio.

I'm sure I'll facepalm once I get an answer, but it's late and I'm tired and the logic to how this is accomplished eludes me.

 

[RobertNC]

1/4 Teaspoon to 10 mL PG is what seems to be the usual advice, and heat in a hot water bath to dissolve.

I suggest if you really want to do it right, at some point in the future get a set of small digital scales, they can be had for $20 on eBay, and do it by weight instead. Also everyone says "10%" but according to the specs EM is only soluble in PG up to 7.7%. I do it by weight and make 5% solutions instead of 10%, but I also use 50-50 PG/VG and it is definitely less soluble in that than straight PG.

 

[DuaneNeveu]

Thanks Robert!

Now that the cobwebs are clear thanks to a night of slumber, I've done some further searching that suggests the quarter teaspoon to 10ml of PG might not be ideal.

The reason I'm so intent on finding out what is best is because of a moment of woe with what was my very favourite vape so far.

I made a batch of "Caramel Candy" juice as one of my first DIY attempts...and LOVED it! It reminded my of both the "Kraft" caramel squares and MacIntosh Toffee I loved as a kid.

I vaped it every day for 3 weeks. After ordering more TPA Caramel Candy and TPA Sweetener to replicate the juice I originally made, I noticed two things. Once in a tank and vaped a few times, there was a crystal residue being left on the inside of the empty upper portion of the tank. Before long, the taste went acrid. Assuming that my measurements were off, I tried mixing another batch (please note, that both batches had no more than 1% TPA Sweetener, the latter however, containing a little less TPA Caramel Candy). Once again, tiny granular residue stuck to the tank and a horrible taste. I tried putting my juice concoction in a warm bath and shaking it repeatedly to try and dissolve the crystals. Even though that was somewhat successful, the taste was still quite terrible.

Given what I've discovered about Ethyl Maltol, I have to conclude that the quarter teaspoon to 10ml of Propylene Glycol is slightly more than is advisable.

I've found two sources that say 1 gram (0.20 teaspoons) of EM is soluble in 17ml of PG (or a quarter teaspoon is soluble in 21.25ml of PG):

This product is a white crystalline powder, soluble in dilute solution, a fruit-like focus sweet flavor. One gram dissolves in about 55 ml of water, 10 ml of ethanol, 17 ml of propylene glycol or 5 ml of chloroform.

One gram ethyl matol can be solved in 56 ml water, 10ml ethanolk, 17 ml glycol, its melting point is 89-92℃

I'm going to try this ratio, use that as my sweetener and see how it fares.

 

[Hosedragger]

keep us up to date it looks like you are on to something

 

[DuaneNeveu]

keep us up to date it looks like you are on to something

Roger that! I'll probably blog this too if I come up with anything I consider terribly useful.

 

[~Sue~Feb2012]

I put 1/4 teaspoon EM crystals in a 10 ml 50/50 PG/VG mix in my 50 ml beaker. Keep stirring and reheating the hot water bath until absolutely all the little crystals are dissolved. This process takes about 10 minutes lol.

Never had the crystals reform or granular residue while vaping though. Sounds awful!
Keep us posted!

 

[RobertNC]

That pretty much corresponds to what I have always thought - that 10% solution of EM they sell are either not very stable or they are adding ethanol to get it all in. I have always worked with 5 % solutions and never had any issues with precipitation or incomplete solution.

However, my main objection to 10% EM is you may not be working with a long term stable stock solution so your recipe reproducibility can suffer.

By the time you make the final mix, the EM should be so further diluted solubility should no longer be a problem.

I have had certain mixes that were cloudy after mixing even though all the stocks were clear solutions. Some things just don't co-disoolve together for a number of reasons.

 

[BikerBob]

I put 1/4 teaspoon EM crystals in a 10 ml 50/50 PG/VG mix in my 50 ml beaker. Keep stirring and reheating the hot water bath until absolutely all the little crystals are dissolved. This process takes about 10 minutes lol.

Never had the crystals reform or granular residue while vaping though. Sounds awful!
Keep us posted!

I use the same ratio : 1/4 tsp of EM crystals in 10ml of PG. It takes a while to dissolve, but it does eventually dissolve. According to Duane Neveu (and other sources) it shouldn't! I'm wondering if 1/4 tsp of 'finely powdered EM' would refuse to dissolve.

 

[DuaneNeveu]

I use the same ratio : 1/4 tsp of EM crystals in 10ml of PG. It takes a while to dissolve, but it does eventually dissolve. According to Duane Neveu (and other sources) it shouldn't! I'm wondering if 1/4 tsp of 'finely powdered EM' would refuse to dissolve.

I can't take credit for the data I found, as it's not my personal research...it's only the scientific data that relates to the substance.

It's important to note though, that dissolution and solubility are not the same thing. More EM may well dissolve in the PG than is prescribed for solubility, but to create a stable soluble solution without saturation, those are the numbers. Once you're willing to submit the solution to any kind of chemical reaction (i.e. applying heat, although it may not even be necessary to achieve dissolution), you may well get a great deal more EM to dissolve, but it is still going to be a saturated solution. Thereby, making residue an inherent property of that solution since you've gone beyond the solubility level of the components.

 

[klynnn]

I also use the 1/4 tsp to 10ml pg and have never had any crystal formation.

 

[boomerdude]

I get my EM crystal from ECx and dissolve it in PGA. Works nicely and I haven't had any residue problems. It dissolves pretty quick also.

 

[Lyndagayle]

I use app. three times the recommended amount of crystals to PG. If crystals reform, I reheat and shake some more. I usually have a very small amount to settle on the bottom but I just leave it there and once I use a few mls, I refill with PG, heat, shake and it's good to go. I've never had crystals develop in my mixed juices, ever. I find that strange. Even if you have your mix over saturated, adding it to a mix with additional VG/PG would further dilute it down and thus prevent crystal formation. In your post, you stated that you ordered a bottle of TPA sweetener. That type of sweetener is NOT EM, it's sucralose. If I had to guess, I'd say the high concentration of sweetener in your mix is causing the problem. I rarely use sweetener but when I do, it's never more than a few drops. That stuff is very strong and can turn a juice to rancid when overdone. EM really isn't sweet but has an aroma of spun sugar or cotton candy giving your senses the feel and taste of sweetness without being sweet, if that makes sense. Try making your juice with your EM mix and leave out the sweetener and I believe that will fix your problem. Let us know how it goes!

 

[DuaneNeveu]

Try making your juice with your EM mix and leave out the sweetener and I believe that will fix your problem. Let us know how it goes!

I abandoned using TPA Sweetener several weeks ago. I've only been using Ethyl Maltol at 1 gram (0.20 teaspoons) to 17ml of PG (or a quarter teaspoon into 21.25ml of PG) as my research yielded those amounts as the measurements for creating a soluble solution. I've been problem free ever since.

 

[Litcube]

I have a question. Once you dissolve your 1 gram of Ethyl Maltol in 17ml of PG, do you treat the entire resulting solution as 100% EM for mixing calculations the same way as you'd treat vanilla flavouring as 100% vanilla flavouring in a mix calculating program?

I hope I put that right.

 

[DuaneNeveu]

I have a question. Once you dissolve your 1 gram of Ethyl Maltol in 17ml of PG, do you treat the entire resulting solution as 100% EM for mixing calculations the same way as you'd treat vanilla flavouring as 100% vanilla flavouring in a mix calculating program?

I hope I put that right.

Yes...I suppose, if I understand correctly.

It's a dubious proposition to refer to a flavouring as being 100% flavouring since they all use some substance as the delivery system of the flavour molecules (most often propylene glycol). Given that Ethyl Maltol can be made into a stable solution at the above ratio, I do label the bottle after it's mixed as "Ethyl Maltol", and in the "eJuice Me Up" software that I use, I designate it as "PG 100%".

 

[Litcube]

Perfect, man. Thanks! I'll be using this method for sure. Who wants to deal with mixing crystals all the time?

What's your preferred method for stirring? Do you just toss them in a bottle and shake? Do you use a stainless steel mixing rod? If so, how long do you stir?

 

[DuaneNeveu]

What's your preferred method for stirring? Do you just toss them in a bottle and shake? Do you use a stainless steel mixing rod? If so, how long do you stir?

Contents go into a bottle, and I simply shake it for a minute, let it sit for a few, then shake it up again. Given that the ratios used are those intended for a perfectly stable solution there's not a need to heat it or anything. I read about a lot of people heating their mixture, but that's only necessary when making a saturated solution. Even then, a temperature fluctuation can bring on sediment which will necessitate heating again.

I prefer to simply employ the proper amounts for a stable solution that is relatively independent of temperature changes of a handful of degrees.

 

[xnerd1963]

I beg to differ. I have also read that EM is only soluble up to 8%. Either that is incorrect or the assumption that a 1/4 teaspoon in 10ml will achieve this.

A quarter teaspoon is about a gram. A Ml of pg is also about a gram. I have attempted to over saturate PG with em using this 1/9 ratio without success so far as I am up to 35 grams EM per 200ml. I have had no EM precipitation at all! So either the presented 7.7 solubility ratio is wrong or the methodology using one gram per ML is wrong.

There is math that can be done to calculate the 10% solution but it is math that I don't remember how to do