evolv patents variable wattage!

[stevegmu]

ProVape develops their own chips...

My guess is ProVape has done it differently than EVOLV, so there won't be a patent issue...

 

[David1975]

I for one will not be buying an Evolve anything from this day forward. Just saying.

 

[dr g]

ProVape develops their own chips...

My guess is ProVape has done it differently than EVOLV, so there won't be a patent issue...

Doubtful, but they probably did license it.

This is such an interesting conversation! Good for evolv - that's my thought... I could be wrong, but if it wasn't for them I'd be vaping on VV rather than VW right now. I am not a patent expert, far from it, but from what I remember of my business law class I took in college 20 years ago (ok, I don't actually remember anything from that class), a patent holder is due compensation if someone uses it, and it seems a whole bunch of folks have profited from evolv's innovation/invention over the past couple years. I hope they get what they're due.

Someone gets it ... truth is evolv is one of the most innovative companies in the industry.

ProVape finally enters the variable wattage market with the ProVari 3 only to have Evolv standing there with a patent....Talk about irony.

Not really, but it does probably indicate that Evolv doesn't intend to shut out other makers from using VW. I'm quite sure Provape knew about Evolv's patents, they have been advertised by Evolv since 2011.

I agree, there are several attys and mods currently on the market that work very well, however most of them use some design or concept that would have been patented if patents were wide spread in e-cigs. Look at the carto, if the original maker patented that design, how many items today might not have ever been made, and how many of those new item lead to other changes? I also don't think the patent for VW is just as their chip does not actually control wattage, it controls voltage to give you a wattage close to that which you want. For instance, take a 1.8ohm coil. You want 14.3 watts, ever notice the voltage stays the same at 5VDC from 13.9watts to 14.4watts. To say you actually control wattage you would need a more accurate delivery of voltage beyond 0.1. This is why VW power supplies are so costly, some control voltage down to 0.0001 volts. Evolve is simply displaying an approximate wattage based on voltage and resistance.... not truly controlling it.

This is just ... not based in reality. Controlling wattage is a matter of controlling voltage in response to a measured resistance. DNAs regulate to a greater precision than their displays, both resistance and voltage are measured to .01 unit.

I for one will not be buying an Evolve anything from this day forward. Just saying.

Talk about American sense of entitlement and crybabyism ... what did Evolv do that would even warrant antipathy? They got a patent they applied for 3 years ago, which all these years they have stated clearly covers every piece of power regulation technology they sell, and have as of yet not make ANY move to change ANYTHING, and you're declaring you won't buy their products? What a joke.

I feel like I need to repeat this, I think it's important to understand:

China is perfectly capable of producing non-infringing products in the value range. The thing is they are adding artificial value to their products right now by infringing on patents and trademarks. That doesn't help anyone other than the infringers, and actively hurts innovators.

The idea of supporting clones for lower prices is hogwash. Cloning and counterfeiting only ADDS value, that's why its done. So to the extent that Chinese sellers can, they will charge more for less than if they had to create a competitive non-infringing product. The alternative to clones isn't genuines and nothing else. It's imported goods that compete on their own merits.

 

[Coldrake]

I for one will not be buying an Evolve anything from this day forward. Just saying.

Because they patented something they invented?

 

[stevegmu]

Does anyone have a link for ProVape's AccuSet patent?

 

[USMCotaku]

They could be using the same Evolv chip Innokin is.

The SVD2.0 is the first and only Advanced Personal Vaporizer to run on the powerful and precise Evolv DNA Experience™ Microchip. Designed and manufactured in the Unites States by Evolv, the patented DNA Experience microchip offers true power control and unrivaled consistency.


That's from their website.....don't think provari is using the same chip (could be a similar one). I remember reading a question and answer thread from an innokin rep, he was stating that the svd chip was proprietary

 

[stevegmu]

ProVape designs, programs and assembles their own chip, board and microprocessor. They don't buy one off the shelf...

 

[David1975]

Because they patented something they invented?

If your talking about their boards and products, no, because they have every right to. But if your talking about a concept like VW, yes. First car to come out with AC, did tey patent cold air in cars? no, they patented their design. First TV, microwave, radio, ect.... you patent a design or base code, not an IDEA. It's not entitlement as suggested, more an outlook on a community.... Every day I see vapers talk about product, help others out and even seen posts on her were people help others build units they "invented". I see vapers help makers supply make better and better product, see reviews help us and them make the next get V.? better and better. Sometimes adoption one idea from another product and incorporating it into theirs, making something better than either products alone. For one company to claim an idea based on an old .... calculation as their property.... and potentially turn them into a variant of an all controlling "big tobacco", yes, That I do have a problem with. Vaping MOD could potentially be like going to a car show where all the cars have the same "V" engine because someone patented the "V".... so all your left with is a choice in strait cylinders. If they want to patent a physical product(s) they made, I'm fine with that.....

 

[Coldrake]

They aren't patenting the concept. You might want to read up on Evolv's patent before you make up your mind.

 

[EuroChris]

I can't see that patent covering DC-AC mods, though.

 

[rurwin]

I can't see that patent covering DC-AC mods, though.

It would take a court of law to be certain, but I don't think the patent as it is written covers PWM.

It certainly does not cover controlling the power by measuring coil temperature. (But Evolv probably have that patent too.)

So there are a couple of ways to work around. But I don't see anything that makes me believe that Evolv are going to be blocking any company that wants to enter the space. They will just ask for a reasonable royalty, which are generally single figure percentages of price. It will add less than ten dollars to your mod.

ETA: It strikes me that you could also measure current and voltage, calculate the power from that and control for it directly without having the concept of resistance in your calculation. However a good expert witness would point out that is a difference without a difference, and your mod could probably not display resistance and still stay safe.

 

[EuroChris]

It would take a court of law to be certain, but I don't think the patent as it is written covers PWM.

It certainly does not cover controlling the power by measuring coil temperature. (But Evolv probably have that patent too.)

So there are a couple of ways to work around. But I don't see anything that makes me believe that Evolv are going to be blocking any company that wants to enter the space. They will just ask for a reasonable royalty, which are generally single figure percentages of price. It will add less than ten dollars to your mod.

I was thinking about the Dicodes board, which does DC-AC.

You think you are right about PWM, as that basically is neither variabel voltage nor variabel wattage. It's just a signal that goes on and off.

I also think you are right when you say it's not going to add a lot to the price of mods, seeing as the price of a DNA board is not that high to begin with.

 

[rurwin]

I was thinking about the Dicodes board, which does DC-AC.

Interesting. I've not come across that one before.

You think you are right about PWM, as that basically is neither variabel voltage nor variabel wattage. It's just a signal that goes on and off.

It's variable wattage (power), just variable average power. I think that counts within the meaning of the patent. However it does not output an adjusted voltage, it outputs a switched voltage. I wouldn't like to second guess a patent lawyer or court on any of this. The truth may well depend on how much money is available to pay lawyers and expert witnesses.

 

[dr g]

It would take a court of law to be certain, but I don't think the patent as it is written covers PWM.

It certainly does not cover controlling the power by measuring coil temperature. (But Evolv probably have that patent too.)

So there are a couple of ways to work around. But I don't see anything that makes me believe that Evolv are going to be blocking any company that wants to enter the space. They will just ask for a reasonable royalty, which are generally single figure percentages of price. It will add less than ten dollars to your mod.

ETA: It strikes me that you could also measure current and voltage, calculate the power from that and control for it directly without having the concept of resistance in your calculation. However a good expert witness would point out that is a difference without a difference, and your mod could probably not display resistance and still stay safe.

The patent does not specify resistance, so anything that it actively measures to calculate power counts. Evolv boards actually do measure current to determine resistance.

I can't see that patent covering DC-AC mods, though.

It covers the method of power control, so DC or AC is irrelevant. If it's not using the method, then it's not infringing.

 

[Firecrow]

A patent is relatively easy to get if the scope of application is narrow and there is no prior art to defend against.

Defending it in court is another matter. Its expensive and takes time. They'll need deep pockets. Good luck especially against China. It will just reduce chinese imports to the US, but the rest of the world would be an open market.

 

[Firecrow]

P.S. PWM sucks, we all know it. That ship has sailed already.

 

[rurwin]

The patent does not specify resistance, so anything that it actively measures to calculate power counts. Evolv boards actually do measure current to determine resistance.

It covers the method of power control, so DC or AC is irrelevant. If it's not using the method, then it's not infringing.

You are correct. It even explicitly suggests PWM and controlling current instead of voltage. I could argue that PWM is not claimed, but it is certainly described. The patent pretty much covers all VW unless you use gas, and I'm not sure about that. ;-)

@Firecrow: PWM is fine, if it is fast enough. All of these devices use PWM, they just filter it before it gets to the coil. But the thermal mass of the coil will act as a filter too. I wouldn't expect a PWM frequency of, say 1MHz, to be detectable in the vape quality. Filtering the voltage in the power supply produces lag time, which is undesirable. Everything is compromises.

 

[dabu406]

P.S. PWM sucks, we all know it. That ship has sailed already.

Ain't that the truth.

As for defending a patent against a Chinese company in court - yep, I would imagine that is not necessarily easy. However, legit companies, both US and foreign, will work out a deal and pay Evolv - it is not like the industry will just ignore this patent - it's a cost of doing business in today's world. I think the innokin deal provides an example of how legit companies in this industry will not just disregard patents - the writing was on the wall and they were proactive.

For anyone who is saying they won't buy an Evolv product now - good for you - I think that is rather narrow minded, but go for it - that is the beauty of a free market! While you may never own a device with an Evolv board in it, I would bet (as long as you use mainstream vw regulated devices) at some point you may find it difficult to avoid the devices who are paying Evolv in some fashion - it will be the quality manufacturers who will pay - cheap knockoffs will continue to be cheap knockoffs - I for one have no desire to buy counterfeit Chinese goods for a multitude of reasons... the fact they are stealing from a US company is just one.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Pinggolfer]

Is there a patent lawyer in the house. Evolv did what they thought was right and since they are a made in the USA company I'm all for them stopping others from cloning their boards. My are we now against USA made products??

 

[caged]

Is there a patent lawyer in the house. Evolv did what they thought was right and since they are a made in the USA company I'm all for them stopping others from cloning their boards. My are we now against USA made products??

Cloning the board and copying the idea of VW are two very different things. If you think anybody who makes a VW chip is cloning Evolv, then every PV is cloning the Chinese e-cig.