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Failing miserably at DIY and smoking instead. E cig too harsh.

Discussion in 'DIY E-Liquid' started by vapesmooth123, Mar 4, 2018.

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  1. vapesmooth123

    vapesmooth123 Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 23, 2016
    I first started vaping about 5 years ago. Within a few months I found ECB's organic %100 VG line (alcohol-base flavors). That juice in a protank 1 or 2 was my favorite. I do realize a protank is basically just a very small MTL tank (4-wrap round 1.8 ohm tiny coil not a lot of vapor, and pin hole air flow, vs modern DTL cloud tanks are more likely to be harsh, but ECB isn't too much harsher in a big DTL tank like a TFV8).
    ECB in a protank 1 or 2 at 6mg, there was zero burn, zero throat hit, you could barely feel anything exhaling except for tasting flavor and that's how I liked to vape.
    When I try the ECB in a DTL big tank like a 10-coil TFV8, it's not as smooth or tasty but it's still smoother than even the 3mg stuff I DIY or even flavorless at 3-6mg, even vs ECB at like 12mg and extra flavor. Extra flavor (alcohol base) should only add to harshness.

    I have tried and tried and have never come close in DIY to the smoothness of the ECB %100 VG. I basically refuse to pay them $10 per 30ml if I can DIY for 25 cents.
    I pretty much can't vape anything PG, well I can, I'm not allergic but it's usually just bad even at 0mg and low flavor % that I pour it down the sink and DIY flavorless 3-6mg instead.

    I don't like the common 'fake' artificial PG flavors either which just taste fake even though 'natural flavors' are basically fake too (natural is basically the same final molecular structure but is made from compounds found in natural sources like tree bark, roots, berries, flowers or whatever - there just so happens to be flavor compounds in certain natural sources which when all engineered together trick the mind into thinking it tastes like banana or apple etc. The same thing how artificial flavors trick the mind into tasting like certain things, and artificial flavors are usually if not always derived from petroleum (yes, like gasoline), but are somehow actually often safer than 'natural flavors'. None the less, I don't really like PG flavors even at low %.
    For PG flavors, I've tried the most popular brands but I think they are garbage like Flavor West, Capella, etc, they are shjt to me usually.

    Alcohol based flavors are supposed to be more harsh than PG flavors but boggles me how ECB's %100VG line is alcohol based.

    I have tried a lot of Medicine Flower aka lotus flavors CO2 extracted flavors and those ARE derived from the actual flavor on the bottle (banana is CO2 extracted) but those flavors are rather harsh as well compared to ECB's alcohol based.
    The liquid in CO2 flavors, I guess is water. I asked medicine flower what the liquid base is and they said nothing is added to it, so I guess it's the water content in the fruit or whatever the flavor is (water in strawberry, banana etc). None the less, the Med flower flavors are not that smooth even at 0mg.

    I did so many emails with ECB trying to trick them into telling me their flavor source but have not found out. Made a bunch of threads about it also but never concluded.

    You would think I should just buy some e cig alcohol based flavors and see which taste like ECBs. There aren't even many alcohol based flavors to choose from to pin point the ECB source. So what I originally did was buy a lot of Nature's Flavors (NF) alcohol based flavors.
    ECBs organic %100 VG line, they even copy pasted the exact same description that NF originally uses for their organic natural alcohol based line (which is ok'd for vaping by NF [NF had a sister site years ago dedicated to vaping but have deleted it maybe for liability or something, but they will tell you some of their flavor lines like the alcohol based and without diacetyl are safe for vaping and are the same flavors they had for their vaping site).
    ECB copied this from NF. NF is a huge flavor supplier for baking etc, e cig is just a small % of their market:
    These water-soluble flavorings are Certified Organic, All-Natural, Kosher, Vegan, Gluten Free, and contain No Allergens.
    These flavors have no nutritional value as used in this application are calorie, carb, and sugar free. There is no fat. Enjoy.

    But I can tell you, if I mix NF even at 0mg, it's way more harsh than ECB at 6mg. Then there's the whole 'if I add even just 3mg, it becomes like a trick-juice that makes you cough' which is a whole nother problem.
    ECB has certain uncommon flavors that I have scoured the internet trying to find as alcohol based by any other flavor manufacturer but the only ones I could find that make these following flavors in an alcohol base are NF:
    Organic gooseberry flavor
    organic cantaloupe flavor
    Organic pomegranate flavor
    Organic japanese plum flavor

    so, again, all things point to that ECB simply gets their flavors from NF but I literally throw away NF because I find it usually disgusting and harsh. I have tried to 'let the alcohol evaporate with the flavor bottle cap off' but that did nothing. I tried heating up the glass bottles of NF with the cap off, but that did nothing. I have tried to let the NF steep for weeks/months but that did nothing.

    At this point, IDGAF if I find the exact same flavor source that ECB uses, I just want smooth flavor. I would prefer it not to be possibly unsafe though, but artificial is often safer than 'natural' and the CO2 Medicine Flower I think also has a bunch of other possibly not-so-safe processes it goes through besides just CO2 extraction.

    The main flavor I tried testing was banana which was my favorite ECB but didn't come close using NF's banana.
    From scouring the internet, I have found only a couple other alcohol-based banana manufacturers besides NF, but as I mentioned, the NF seems way harsher so I don't think it's what ECB uses, and the other banana flavors I found don't really seem like where ECB would get theirs such as this:
    Banana Extract Wonf, Natural (Organic NOP) by A.M. Todd Botanical Therapeutics - Food, Beverage & Nutrition

    And even if ECB did get their banana flavor from link above, the following flavors I can't find ANYWHERE with an alcohol based besides from NF, so I highly doubt ECB chose to get some flavors from NF and others from somewhere else such as the link above.
    The flavors I can ONLY find as alcohol based from NF and ECB has these flavors also:

    Organic gooseberry flavor
    organic cantaloupe flavor
    Organic pomegranate flavor
    Organic Japanese plum flavor

    Ultimately, I don't care if it's not ECB's flavor source though, I just want smooth flavor.
    I still haven't tried VG-based flavors though which might be zero-burn even though they require a lot % to be flavorful.

    But then there's the whole thing about nicotine..
    At around $10 a 30ml, ECB isn't exactly high-end juice, so I don't think they're using expensive nicotine such as Carolina Extract which is the only one I think I haven't tried but is supposedly the smoothest (not counting nic salt). I have tried pretty much every brand of nicotine (RTS, ecigexpress, vaporstek, wizard labs, etc) but even those mixed 100VG flavorless seem much harsher than the ECB with extra flavor (extra alcohol base). I used those nic brands fresh from delivery but still seems harsher.

    Recently I found out about nic salt being super smooth, so I said great! This should do the trick. I just received a 60ml bottle of VG based nic salt from Nicotine River (their smoothest salt version of the 3 choices) and it is possibly THE WORST, most harsh, weird tasting nic I have ever used even flavorless at 6mg. I measure everything with a syringe and is indeed just 6mg in a single coil GOVAD RTA but tasted so bad and just made me cough.

    Whenever I vape any brand of nicotine weather it be salt or regular freebase, at over like 12mg or even 6mg it's like I'm vaping trick juice that is meant to fool someone into coughing and so I just smoke 1/4 of a cigarette instead. Don't get me wrong, I still vape mostly but when everything was fine and dandy with the Protank 1 and 2 and 6mg ECB, I PREFERRED TO ALWAYS vape and would only have 1 cigarette a month. Sometimes the vape cough reaction is worse than others. In the mourning I can't vape even 3mg flavorless, but 1/4 a cigarette is smooth.
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
  2. DavidOck

    DavidOck ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Perhaps it's the devices you're using? You're comparing something to the PT1 & 2 series, but haven't said what you're running presently.

    That will make a huge difference in the vape, and it may only require adjustments on your hardware to get the vape you want.
    • Agree Agree x 2
  3. Storm52

    Storm52 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Jan 27, 2014
    Shreveport, LA
    Why not use what originally worked for you? PT2 and coils are still available.
    • Like Like x 3
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. vapesmooth123

    vapesmooth123 Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 23, 2016
    I asked this in the past and people said to start with 1 part of the mix and work from there. (VG base, then nic, then flavor).

    For the VG base, I have only ever used palm-derived essential depot which is 99.7% pure vs some other brands are like %98. From what I've read about 'vaping Walmart glycering', VG is VG and there's basically HUMCO the main manufacturer for it all. Although now they have soy derived VG and coconut and corn and mustard maybe HUMCO doesn't make that. I will try other brands of VG but I doubt that's the difference.

    Straight essential depot VG with nothing added (no nic, no flavor)IS super smooth and makes lots of clouds.
    What's strange though is that ECB is exceptionally cloudy (which I like) even with 6mg and with Extra Flavor (more alcohol base which doesn't cloud).

    ECB says they don't add any smoothing agents or anything like that to their juice. Now I'm thinking though maybe they do add
    Benzoic Acid. I will ask them that because although proprietary, they should have to disclose that. Benzoic Acid is what makes those small JUUL vapes very smooth. Nicotine River boasts that their nic salts don't use Benzoic Acid, but the others do, so maybe that's why nic river's salt is basically un'vapeable for me even at just 6mg flavorless and just a 1ohm single Clapton coil at 25 watts and air flow half closed. But none the less, I highly doubt ECB was using nicotine salt in their juice 5 years ago - nic salt is very new to the market.
    I guess I can try other nic salt brands that do use Benzoic Acid.

    I dunno, I mix flavorless 6mg and it just makes me cough. Sometimes aren't too bad though.
    Don't get me wrong, I don't have emphazema or anything, I'm in shape and can work out 10 hours, bike 150 miles easy, run for miles, but anything but the ECB is not very pleasant to vape.

    I find that sort of after a few days of using a coil, it gets better but then also takes on a sort of caramelized coil flavor which I don't really like.

    ECB in a big DTL tank like a 10-coil TFV8, I'm not crazy about it, the flavor is off compared to a protank 1, but maybe it's an MTL vs DTL thing. I ordered a kayfun MTL tank though.
    Also, ECB 6mg in a TFV8 is a bit harsh but it's like 4X the amount of vapor production vs a little protank 2 coil.

    I was thinking maybe this whole thing is that if I vaped a tiny protank at 6mg, it would be about 4x that amount nic using a cloud tank like a TFV8 but, the ECB in a cloud tank isn't nearly as harsh as DIY flavorless 3mg.

    Some of this might be placebo affect and just confusing myself but I firmly believe the ECB is strangely smooth juice.
    I am willing to buy ECB %100VG juices for a few experienced juice reviewers so you can see what I'm talking about.

    I'm going to ask now ECB if they will a) sell me just straight 100VG in a 30ml, nothing at all added, and also flavorless 3mg and 6mg and 12mg, and also just a bottle of straight up banana flavor concentrate to better solve this.

    I just bought a bunch of new MODs, a bunch of new cloud tanks and MTL tanks, and now I just need smooth juice I actually enjoy vaping. When everything's right, I prefer to vape. I used to even vape ECB at 18mg in the protank 1 and 2 just to get some nic in and not even vape that much.
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
  5. vapesmooth123

    vapesmooth123 Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 23, 2016
    Why not use what originally worked for you? PT2 and coils are still available.

    good pointe. I think a big factor is a small MTL tank (protank 1/2) vs a cloud tank I've been mostly using since.
    But the ECB isn't too harsh at 6mg in a giant cloud tank TFV8 10-coil.

    I actually just did buy an authentic Protank 2, but sort of as just a souvenir and I bought a kayfun MTL what I plan to do is get the kayfun set up similar to a protank so I can have the benefits of the kayfun plus replicate the protank flavor.
    (protank has IMO a bad bottom coil wicking design is why it would flood/gurgle or burnt hits worse than a modern bottom coil RTA because the juice comes straight into the coil chamber with a protank, whereas with a regular bottom coil RTA like a kayfun the juice has to wick up about 1/4" - you tuck the wicks down when building a modern tank - a protank is like you just leave the wicks flat and the juice comes right in the sides).

    (actually bought the coppervape skyline seemed a tad better option IMHO than a kayfun but basically identical).
    • Like Like x 1
  6. vapesmooth123

    vapesmooth123 Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 23, 2016
    I'm using right now a GOVAD single coil 1ohm 3.5mm 5-wrap spaced fused Clapton with jap org cotton. If I vape the nic river salt at 6mg flavorless %100VG I will COUGH WILDLY! I cut it to 3mg and it's still bad but after a few days it gets a bit better but then sort of gets that 'gunked coil caramelized flavor'.

    I'm sure when I get my ECB next order even at Extra flavor and 6mg (and not nic salt), It'll be smooth flavored vapor clouds in the same set up, that ECB line is like steam.
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Sugar_and_Spice

    Sugar_and_Spice ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Sep 11, 2010
    between here and there
    Do you thin your vg? Not only does that help with wicking but some say it helps to smooth out the harshness of the vape.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. mackman

    mackman Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 19, 2013
    I just picked up some Nude Nicotine salts in their "smooth" 100%vg base configuration and it truly lives up to the hype. You can get a 15ml sample for $2.75
    • Useful Useful x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  9. Vicman

    Vicman Super Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Jun 6, 2014
    Nude Nicotine has flavor concentrates that are vg/alcohol based and are pretty good as well. Might be worth a try if trying to go as close to 100% vg as possible.
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  10. stols001

    stols001 Mistress of the Dark Nicotinic Arts Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    May 30, 2017
    Tucson, AZ
    Man, I'm sorry, I don't have a ton of advice, you have so many variables going on. If I understand correctly, though, you can use your preferred vendor's mixes in your new gear without incident although you are using a different nic strength? Is that correct?

    VG flavors may be worth checking into and you might be surprised at how little flavoring you need, honestly, although it's going to be hard to "match" to storebought juice as it's hard to know what the ingredients all are, as well as how long it has steeped before arriving to your door.

    I would try and get samples of nic (so that it's inexpensive) from various vendors that you like, until you find one you can tolerate unflavored, while still using the juice that you can tolerate (although it's too expensive, it seems) in the meantime. Then, I might try single flavor mixes to see what tastes "harsh" or "chemical" to you or not, in VG flavors if you can get them. You may be able to "work up" to a set of flavors that you like, you can tolerate, and you can enjoy in your new equipment. It sounds like something is going wrong for you, so you'll have to continue to isolate it, but I would approach it with a "small, slow and steady" approach, buying as little as you can and experimenting with different vendors.

    Do you still have your old device? If you do you might try some of your "DIY" flavors in it to see if it is the device, or if it's the flavoring, that is doing the "magic trick" for you. It's possible that if you are getting more powerful vapor delivery (in any form) that you may have an adjustment period to the new gear.

    I wish I could offer more help, this sounds unbelievably complicated, so I would just spread your net far and wide, and maybe try to set a "time frame" where you can hopefully switch over to a DIY set of flavors that you actually like. I also think that steeping is going to be your friend, now that I'm up and running with DIY I steep for usually at least a month, and plan it out that way. My juices are not harsh, or overflavored to me but that's the thing, we are all different.

    I wish you the best of luck.

    • Like Like x 1
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  11. DavidOck

    DavidOck ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    At what power level? Bear in mind that going from MTL to DTL requires some adjustments. Not just to the juice, but in how you set up the topper. Higher power needs much more air flow. Although the resultant increase in vapor density often requires a sharp decrease in nic (and maybe PG, but you're already low there).

    Coil height (above the deck) can also be a factor. Too high and you'll risk a hotter vape, often harsher. Too low and you may have leaks and gurgles.

    Then again, maybe you just don't like DTL?
    • Agree Agree x 1
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  12. Fozzy71

    Fozzy71 Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Jul 7, 2016
    8 Mile + 2.5
    I don't have time for reading those walls of text and have no idea what ECB, NF, etc is but have you tried any concentrates from Real Flavors? They are alcohol based and super concentrated. They are all I use and I usually mix their stuff in the 3 or 4% range for single flavor mixes. Recipes with multiple flavors I will go higher in the 6 or 8 percent range some times. I mix mine at 70vg/30pg.
    • Agree x 2
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  13. BrotherBob

    BrotherBob ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Dec 24, 2014
    Sounds like you have a plan. The information below may answer some of your questions.:
    Choosing between PG or VG for vaping
    • Useful Useful x 2
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  14. vapesmooth123

    vapesmooth123 Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 23, 2016
    if I simply put ECB in any set up, it seems way way smoother. I'm only vaping that single coil GOVAD RTA at about 25W. .65ohm 4-wrap spaced fused Clapton kanthal.

    Real flavors are VG-based. I haven't tried them. I'll make an order right now. VG is the smoothest thing you can vape and makes the most vapor but it doesn't carry flavor as well as PG but PG adds harsh/throat hit, same thing for alcohol (but ECB is alcohol based). Hence it is said that you need a LOT of CG-based flavor last I checked but I see they now have 'super concentrate'. I'll order regular and that super concentrate from real Flavors. Wish me luck. But once I add a teeny bit of nic, it all goes to hell. Even flavorless, but maybe adding flavor some how masks the nic burn?! To be honest I think this nicotine river salt at 6mg got less terrifyingly harsh when I added a PG-based watermelon. I haven't tried flavorless from ECB but will ask if they will sell me that in 6mg-18mg.
    ECB is suspiciously smooth even at 12mg.

    • Like Like x 1
  15. Fozzy71

    Fozzy71 Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Jul 7, 2016
    8 Mile + 2.5
    • Informative Informative x 1
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  16. Fozzy71

    Fozzy71 Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Jul 7, 2016
    8 Mile + 2.5
    sounds like you need to try some new nic to me from another vendor. I have MFS, NN and RTS nic and I can't even tell a difference between the 3 nics, or between 0nic vs 4.5mg nic recipes, other than the stuff with nic has some throat hit. It certainly doesn't kill the flavor of a recipe once nic gets added in my experience. I have been doing DIY for about 18 months and using only RF SC's for about the past 12 months of that time.
    • Like Like x 1
  17. vapesmooth123

    vapesmooth123 Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 23, 2016
    no water added, and ECB confirmed they don't add water and theirs is super smooth, but I'll try adding some distilled water.

    I literally had a dream that nicotine river 6mg I'm vaping flavorless %100 VG was recalled for being too harsh lol.
    I'll order the nude nic salt now.

    Nude I think has Benzoic Acid which Nic River doesn't. Benzoic Acid is basically what reduces the pH and makes it less harsh but other acids can be used (dunno how an 'acid' reduces pH but whatever). Read acids like citric can be used but not as effective as benzoic. Nic River DOES use some sort of acid, just not benzoic.

    Either way, they say benzoic acid is safer than smoking even though if I have a cigarette it's additive-free organic American Sprit, but still no combustion or tar in vaping.

    And maybe additive-free tobacco even has these types of acids already in it according to nude nicotine:

    “Signature,” “Hit,” and “Smooth” Nicotine Salt formulations are designed around harnessing the differing properties of nicotine inhalation character. Each of these three formulae are a differing blend of multiple cationic acids known to bind electro-negative nicotine on the tobacco leaf, and others that we have unique IP in-development at the laboratory!

    Numerous cationic acids exist on the tobacco leaf; we know this since the pH of tobacco smoke is closer to 5 on the pH scale (1-14) than that of the basic nicotine, which is closer to 8. These acids possess positive charges, AKA free hydrogens, with exhibit attraction to nicotine’s basic nitrogen centers. This is nature’s beautiful way of stabilizing the nicotine molecule for prolonged activity and defense against oxidative degradation. The binding of a cationic salt at nicotine’s electronegative nitrogen center(s), inhibits the oxidative damage it would suffer in comparison to a non-salt formulation!

    same thing said here:
    In its natural form, nicotine, as it is contained within the leaves of the tobacco plant, is not a free base but exists with acid in the form of a salt. This type of nicotine is less absorbable by the body. However, when certain types of acids are added to free base nicotine, those acids not only turn the nicotine into a salt but may also help to free the nicotine (into a free base) when heated to a certain temperature – as during vaporization. At least this is the claim of Pax Labs, Inc., which obtained a patent for a nicotine salt in 2015.

    Nicotine Salts: Everything You Wanted to Know | Vaping411


    They say benzoic acid isn't a concern for ingestion but inhalation hasn't been tested on humans, animal studies suggest not much risk but still not sure of long-term risks (but watch in a year or so they'll probably make something safer anyway).

    Plus it's true the higher the nic level, the less you vape so overall much less vaping anyway (VG I'm not really worried about but flavors IMHO are the sketchier part of the mix).
    And salts satisfy quicker which is something I always wanted.

    Nicotine Salts: More Satisfying or Marketing Ploy? - Vaping360

    people have used citric acid instead of benzoic and said there was much less throat hit, and I'm really not scarred of citric acid. I have a vitamin C (citric acid) shower head that basically steams water and citric acid that gets inhaled (it neutralizes chlorine and chloramine in water but I found out that my water doesn't even have chloramine or chlorine). If it did though, then a regular shower inhaling that chloramine is probably bad.

    DIY Nicotine salts

    I'm just gonna buy a bunch more flavors and different brand nics (still havent' tried Carolina extra non-salt which is supposedly the smoothest non-salt). And should eventually have something I enjoy vaping.

    But ultimately I would like maybe to use regular non salt nicotine if it's not too harsh (maybe Carolina extra and I see a few other brands now sell expensive freebase similar to Carolina's). Because

    When benzoic acid and vitamin C (ascorbic acid) or citric acid are present, under the right conditions of heat and light, these two ingredients can combine to create the known carcinogen, benzene.

    Chemical of the Day - *Today's Chemical - Benzoic Acid
    this makes sounds to me like it's not a bad thing though:

    Plant benzoic acids (BAs) and their derivatives are common and widespread mediators of plant responses to
    biotic and abiotic stress. For example, salicylic acid
    (SA, 2-hydroxybenzoic acid) is a key signaling molecule
    that mediates plant defense against a variety of pathogens
    in a number of species, including tobacco and Arabidopsis
    thaliana. Its accumulation is required for the establishment
    of local and systemic required resistance (SAR)
    responses [1]. SA is also synthesized in response to
    oxidative stressors, such as ozone, and is in part responsible
    for induced plant protective responses [2]. The
    volatiles methyl benzoate (MeBA) and methyl salicylate
    (MeSA) are present in the floral scents of more than 100
    species of 30 different families and function as pollinator

    attractants COPB Review 2006.pdf
  18. vapesmooth123

    vapesmooth123 Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 23, 2016
    I'm ordering some now. If you check the SDS (MSDS) Link though for some, they have PG.
    banana bread has %22 PG, %6.05 ethyl alcohol base.
    Banana Bread - Professional Super Concentrate

    as long as it's smooth though I don't care. I don't even want banana bread either, I like regular banana, like that banana Runts candy flavor, banana now and laters, banana Italian ice. Have tried many PG based bananas and only really like the ECB one. Had a PG based banana from I think ecigexpress it tasted just like beer lol.

    I'm not sure what their plain Banana super concentrate base is though. The SDS (MSDS) Link DOES list some alcohols but only a small %.

    Banana - Professional Super Concentrate

    3-Methylbutyl acetate is the banana flavoring <%5
    <%1 of each of the rest of these are alcohols:
    Ethyl alcohol,

    I guess the remaining %92 is VG base?
    Their VG line doesn't have an ingredient link.

    I'll ask because I have to email them anyway and make sure they don't have any flavors that aren't vegan.
    Some flavor concentrates actually aren't vegan BTW in case anyone cares. The Co2 extracted 'butter' from Medicine flower as mentioned ARE extracted from the actual title and butter is from dairy (they don't have Butter for sale though anymore for some reason but still have Honey and caramel and butterscotch are dairy derrived).
    According to a reddit post who emailed the company,
    The Perfumers Apprentice: all are vegan except milk solids in •Cheesecake , Waffle, Gingerbread, Butterscotch ,Holiday Spice ,Papaya.

    I have a file somewhere from asking manufacturers if flavors are vegan, but other than that don't think I've ever found any to not be vegan, although I haven't tried too too many different brands and the big brands like Nature's Flavors, Capella, Flavor west all say on the website are vegan.

    ANYWAYs,,,, just gonna but some more stuff:)
    • Like Like x 1
  19. puffon

    puffon Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Sep 18, 2014
    The Villages, FL
    So taking a shower is bad for us now???
    • Funny Funny x 4
  20. 440BB

    440BB Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Apr 19, 2011
    The Motor City
    When you were originally MTL I would have suggested simply puffing without inhaling to get your nic fix with no coughing/irritation. If you now need to smoke because of irritation but want clouds too, I can't see a simple way to keep off cigarettes while you sort out the harshness.

    If you really don't want to smoke, perhaps returning to a simpler form of vaping will help, as it originally did.
    • Like Like x 3
    • Winner Winner x 1
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