FAO: Steve/Leaford/Mark - how fast does inventory turn?

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Adrenalynn

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Dec 5, 2009
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Rhetorical question. Doesn't need an answer - but it's something to think about.

I've been getting batteries that are DOA that just won't take a charge. Their voltage reads waaaaay toooo low straight out of the package.

The self-discharge rate on LiION is very fast. If you're not turning stock fast enough, you need to maintain the charge on those batteries, or by the time we get them they'll have self-discharged so far they'll never charge again.

As you order large chunks of inventory - give it some consideration?
 

Pawpaw

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The self-discharge rate on LiION is very fast.

Your knowledge level far exceeds mine so I'm not arguing, however, I thought Li-Ion had one of the better self-discharge rates.

Battery University:

lithium-ion self-discharges about 5% in the first 24 hours and 1-2% afterwards. Adding the protection circuit increases the discharge by another 3% per month.

All I'm saying is that I don't understand.
 

Adrenalynn

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The batteries have hard protection. You're looking at 2%/day from 95%. If that battery is sitting on the shelf for 45 days, you might find you have trouble charging it. It's likely been off the charger for two weeks before it gets shelved. Another week on the other end in transit to us. A battery is certainly not "fresh" when we get it!

If you compare that to a Lithium cell (take it out of the package and slap it in the device ten years later - it's fine), or even an Alkaline (at least three years, as much as seven years or so) - their shelf-life is pretty short.

Incidentally - you should feel free to disagree with me at any time, any place. Good Science demands it. Call what I write into question. I'm never above mistake or reproach. If I can't defend a position, it's as bogus as any other.
 
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Tasselhoff

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The batteries have hard protection. You're looking at 2%/day from 95%. If that battery is sitting on the shelf for 45 days, you might find you have trouble charging it. It's likely been off the charger for two weeks before it gets shelved. Another week on the other end in transit to us. A battery is certainly not "fresh" when we get it!

If you compare that to a Lithium cell (take it out of the package and slap it in the device ten years later - it's fine), or even an Alkaline (at least three years, as much as seven years or so) - their shelf-life is pretty short.

Incidentally - you should feel free to disagree with me at any time, any place. Good Science demands it. Call what I write into question. I'm never above mistake or reproach. If I can't defend a position, it's as bogus as any other.

I love it!!:wub: When you get technical.:pervy::pervy::pervy:
 

Michelle43

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Dec 21, 2009
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To some extent, I was in this case, Michelle.

I try to tune my writings to my audience. In this case, I was acknowledging PawPaw as a peer and submitting to peer review, which is a "sacred process" in science. So the language was chosen with him in mind.

Make sense? :)

It makes total sense :) I am just in awe when you go into technical mode.
 

leeshor

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Aug 6, 2009
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Unless I missed it, what might be a good question is one of rotation rather than turn.

It appears that the team knows how to turn the stock over, (with sales and such), but with so much stock -- is it getting properly rotated properly? That would be key but difficult to keep track of. That's a side effect of getting busy really quickly.
 

miss MiA

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Nov 12, 2009
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Alynn,
So does this have implications for us as well? I have a bunch of auto batteries that I don't keep in my regular rotation. I charged them all on Dec. 12 & figured they were good for a while. But now I wondering if those backups ought to be charged more frequently, i.e. once a month?

I have a bunch of manuals and a few autos stashed away strictly in case of ugly three-letter words, just so that I might be able to continue enjoying their convenience for awhile (I also have some big batt mods) as long as it's still within li-ion's typical two or three year shelf life.

Tho quality control with ecig batts probably complicates things, if not in use and stored in a cool place -- preferably 'fridge and preferably at a 40% charge -- these batts can hold out fairly well, and even maintain up to 96% of their charge after a year. See for example:

How to prolong lithium-based batteries
 

Adrenalynn

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MiA,

That's capacity loss NOT charge loss in Diagram A. That's permanent capacity loss.

"The speed by which lithium-ion ages is governed by temperature and state-of-charge. Figure 1 illustrates the capacity loss as a function of these two parameters."

Also on the same page:

Avoid purchasing spare lithium-ion batteries for later use. Observe manufacturing dates. Do not buy old stock, even if sold at clearance prices.


Now what was it I was wondering in the thread again? Oh, yeah. How fast does the stock turn, and as Leeshor accurately observes, is it turning equally or is it "surface turning"
 

Adrenalynn

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Finally sat down and wrote a quickie 2% decay solver - I get some time around day 78 or 79 the chargers we typically use from the factory are going to have a tough time (ie. the voltage has dropped to the point that the two MCU's can't negotiate), and I started at 95%, meaning the battery was overnighted from China and didn't go through customs. ;)
 

miss MiA

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MiA,

That's capacity loss NOT charge loss in Diagram A. That's permanent capacity loss.

"The speed by which lithium-ion ages is governed by temperature and state-of-charge. Figure 1 illustrates the capacity loss as a function of these two parameters."

Also on the same page:

Avoid purchasing spare lithium-ion batteries for later use. Observe manufacturing dates. Do not buy old stock, even if sold at clearance prices.


But immediately after that it also says:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"If you have a spare lithium-ion battery, use one to the fullest and keep the other cool by placing it in the refrigerator. Do not freeze the battery. For best results, store the battery at 40% state-of-charge."[/FONT]

So those are key factors, as indicated by the preceding statement "The speed by which lithium-ion ages is governed by temperature and state-of-charge. Figure 1 illustrates the capacity loss as a function of these two parameters."

So yeah, it's far from exact enough to set one's clock or really high hopes by, but the chances of the batts still being plenty or at least reasonably useful after a relatively long period (especially welcome if they couldn't be obtained legally at all anymore), just aren't bad per se, so hey why not.

While it's definitely good for people to know what the ideal conditions and treatment are for these batts, I think it's also very good for them to be made aware that a little batt stockpiling is not in fact illogical or destined to be useless. And as far as stockpiling for ban purposes, many aspects of it just are a gamble, i.e. guessing how many atties will last you or how long unflavored high nic juice really will hold up. But those kinds of things aren't stopping the countless folks who do at least want to give it a shot and see how far they can make it.

Big batt mods will suit that mission much better of course, but having some extra ecig batts on hand as well makes sense enough, except for those who would actually be financially impacted by purchasing and setting aside a few extras that may possibly never get used. (And with long-term prognosis not being all that bad, having a couple properly stored extras on hand to add to rotation within just weeks or months as currently-in-use/abuse ones give out probably isn't an entirely bad idea either. Again, unless one would be impacted financially by any batt that didn't end up serving a useful/fully useful life.)

In the end it's all another matter of opinion I guess, as to whether it's worth the relatively small expenditure and risk that it will have been a total or almost total waste. But I do think ppl should be permitted more often than they seem to be to know all sides of it, and that they do have more than one (reasonable) choice.
 

SMILIN

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Sep 21, 2008
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Rhetorical question. Doesn't need an answer - but it's something to think about.

I've been getting batteries that are DOA that just won't take a charge. Their voltage reads waaaaay toooo low straight out of the package.

The self-discharge rate on LiION is very fast. If you're not turning stock fast enough, you need to maintain the charge on those batteries, or by the time we get them they'll have self-discharged so far they'll never charge again.

As you order large chunks of inventory - give it some consideration?

It is not that, the factory seems to producde like 600 great ones, then 100 are crappier. We are working on it. I still use batteries from a year ago, so I know, wheat I am aiming for:p

ish we could do better, and I believe this new shipment is a giantp in the right direction. We will have even, Purple, and Metallic yellow gold.....gorgeous batteries:shock:

Regards

Steve:cool:
 

splunge2112

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Feb 4, 2010
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this isnt exactly tried true and tested technology. to be honest, if every time i order new flavors or get juice and carts i have to buy a new battery, i am still ahead of the game. i am vaping, getting my nicotine, and not paying some jagoff tobacco CEO mad cash to get cancer. i understand how some can be not so happy if batteries die too soon, or carts taste a little icky or juice isnt what you were expecting, but lets not lose sight of the big picture.
 
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