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FDA Bans Pure and Highly Concentrated Caffeine

Discussion in 'FDA Regulations' started by Rossum, Apr 14, 2018.

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  1. Rossum

    Rossum Surly Curmudgeon Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Dec 14, 2013
    SE PA
    No, this is not directly related to vaping, but... Have a look at their press release here. Then consider the fact that they're doing this strictly via "guidance". No "Notice of Proposed Rulemaking" and normal regulatory process, just instant "fiat". What follows is an except from the actual guidance document:

    These products are typically meant to be diluted before being consumed, and not consumed “as is.” An amount of highly concentrated liquid caffeine that would be safe for a given individual to consume in a properly diluted solution could nonetheless be unsafe for the same individual if the highly concentrated liquid were consumed directly. In the reasonably foreseeable scenario where a consumer makes an error diluting the product, or does not dilute it at all, that consumer could ingest a toxic quantity of caffeine.

    Substitute one word, "nicotine" for "caffeine", and you've got a template for an instant ban on DIY nic base being sold to consumers. No notice, just done. :grr:
     
    • Informative Informative x 8
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  2. Opinionated

    Opinionated Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 19, 2015
    I have a question though. .. isn't this unconstitutional?

    Can congress cede the power to make law to the FDA like this? Because basically they have..

    Congress made one law giving basic law making control to the FDA, and it seems unconstitutional since no one in the FDA is an elected official so basically they are making laws (such as its illegal to sell caffeine concentrate to consumers) and we have zero representation concerning these new laws.
     
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  3. bombastinator

    bombastinator Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Sep 12, 2010
    MN USA
    Yep. It’s technically presidential powers. he appoints them. All the regulatory agencies are like that.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
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  4. bombastinator

    bombastinator Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Sep 12, 2010
    MN USA
    They already do that though with 100mg being the highest concentration you can buy. Pure is something like 1000mg and is hellishly dangerous.
     
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  5. zoiDman

    zoiDman My -0^10 = Nothing at All* ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Apr 16, 2010
    So-Cal
    Yep... The Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act is a Very Powerful Instrument.

    402(f)(1)(A) of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act


    ADULTERATED FOOD


    SEC. 402
    . [21 U.S.C. 342] A food shall be deemed to be adulterated—
    .
    .
    .
    (f)(1) If it is a dietary supplement or contains a dietary ingredient that—

    (A) presents a significant or unreasonable risk of illness or injury under—

    http://www.gmptrainingsystems.com/files/u1/pdf/Section_402_Adulteration.pdf
     
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  6. zoiDman

    zoiDman My -0^10 = Nothing at All* ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Apr 16, 2010
    So-Cal
    What New Law is FDA making?
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  7. Rossum

    Rossum Surly Curmudgeon Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Dec 14, 2013
    SE PA
    That's a matter of opinion. Unfortunately your opinion and mine don't matter.

    And of course the FDA claims Congress gave them the authority to do this in section 402(f)(1)(A) of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act.

    In addition, they keep using the word "adulterated" in their guidance, just like they do in the Deeming. I'm not sure how any substance that's chemically pure can possibly be described as "adulterated", except of course to a bureaucrat.
     
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  8. Opinionated

    Opinionated Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 19, 2015
    Congress can't cede law making control to the president... it's unconstitutional.

    We have a system of government for a reason, and that system is set up in order that "we the people" have representation in government where concerns new laws..

    Ceding law making power to an agency who are not answerable to a constituency is to violate the constitutional rights of the citizenry as it leaves us with no representation.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
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  9. Opinionated

    Opinionated Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 19, 2015
    Yet I don't think it's constitutional..

    Has anyone challenged it on that basis? That these "rules" carry the weight of law so they are unconstitutional?
     
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  10. CagedSpam

    CagedSpam Super Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 12, 2015
    FoPo, Oregon
    Damn, time to roll back the FDA...

    This is getting ridiculous. Something something frogs and boiling water.:censored:
     
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  11. Rossum

    Rossum Surly Curmudgeon Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Dec 14, 2013
    SE PA
    Horsefeathers. 100mg is the highest that most vendors sell, but there are vendors who will sell much higher concentrations. We're just not allowed to link to them here on ECF, but this it isn't due to any law or regulation, at least not yet. I'll also speculate that when such a regulation does come about, the limit for sale to consumers will be lower than 100mg.
     
    • Agree Agree x 8
  12. stols001

    stols001 Mistress of the Dark Nicotinic Arts Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    May 30, 2017
    Tucson, AZ
    I swear... I'm buying my last two liters of nic today. I don't think I use "concentrated" coffee unless out and about (Starbucks) I wonder what they're thinking of this law.

    I read that book, "The history of Coffee" I think it was called, and we've had "coffee wars" in the US, including pricing, but I have NO idea how that "decision" came about, and it sounded stealthy. Gah. Oh well, at least it is ONLY two liters, (Wizard Labs is 20% off until tomorrow BTW in case anyone uses them) but thankfully, I've been stockpiling like a little ant. Don't want to lose at the HOME STRETCH either. LOL.

    Anna
     
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  13. sofarsogood

    sofarsogood Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Oct 12, 2014
    And don't forget the chance of a trade war with China. The original Pico has remained my preferred mod since it came out. I've intended to get a couple more, been procrastinating on that.

    Go read anything on the FDA website. Every word is written by lawyers. Our health is the last thing on their minds.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
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  14. Letitia

    Letitia Therion/Nano Junkie ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Apr 2, 2017
    West Frankfort, IL
    When enough people decide to quit letting our government do our thinking for us maybe some things will change. Americans are lazy, greedy. self involved, and spoiled. It's our own fault for letting it get this far. So how does one best break down a gallon of nic for storage?
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
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    • Winner Winner x 2
  15. 440BB

    440BB Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Apr 19, 2011
    The Motor City
    I had the same reaction. I can't see why they'd stop at caffeine. All the same justifications. Damn.
     
    • Agree Agree x 7
  16. leftyandsparky

    leftyandsparky Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Nov 22, 2015
    Somewhere in the South
    Health cabinet has them on sale for $20
     
    • Like Like x 3
  17. Letitia

    Letitia Therion/Nano Junkie ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Apr 2, 2017
    West Frankfort, IL
    The Pico 25 is only $13 or 14.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  18. leftyandsparky

    leftyandsparky Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Nov 22, 2015
    Somewhere in the South
    That’s a good price! I like the 75. Do you really need to know how to
    Break down nic?
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
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  19. Equality 7-2521

    Equality 7-2521 Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 29, 2013
    oakland ca.
    I guess the FDA thinks caffine will lead to teen smoking.
     
    • Funny Funny x 5
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  20. Letitia

    Letitia Therion/Nano Junkie ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Apr 2, 2017
    West Frankfort, IL
    No. I'll break down the gallon to liters and break down the liters to 120m as needed.
     
    • Like Like x 3
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