FDA may soon propose regulation that could ban many/most e-cigarette products, eliminate many/most companies

[Vapor Vinny]

I wish these control freaks would take their hands out of our pockets and focus on more pressing issues. All of my e-cig purchases are shipped from the US and my money I spend goes into the hands of other taxpaying US citizens. I am stimulating my economy and helping these small time businesses grow and flourish in an otherwise stagnant economy. Pardon me for finding an alternative to paying the white bearded aristocrats of big tobacco for my hobbies and habits. They are trying to stifle small businesses in the e-cig arena in an effort to grab whatever they can from an idea that wasnt theirs. It's like a bad manager who's fledgeling musician just had a radio hit, they're trying to cash in on the big money before the vocal talents can thoroughly be explored (sorry for the bad analogy). There are so many small companies who are bringing creativity and expression into this business, creating with their hearts and sweat and tears in an attempt to make it in a sea of over-manufacturing and cookie cutter products. With the FDA's hands in this equation, many taxes and regulations will overpower the little guys trying to make an honest effort in this business. Only the strongest will make it out unscathed (partially due to lining the pockets of these fat cats), and the creativity that spawns from heart and dedication to mom and pop business shall be smothered in the sea of paperwork and legal fees. Why are there so many McDonalds and Burger King's in this world? They have the buying power to overcome the many obstacles of legality and regulation, while mom and pop suffer 90 hr work weeks just to make enough to keep the lights on. Big government stifles the creativity that spawned the US and brought it to its days of glory. These were the days where your hard work and sweat determined how much you brought to your dinner table, not how many politicians you can pay off to in an attempt to ignore your missteps and wrong decisions. Let's stop these guys from crushing so many dreams and hopes of hardworking Americans. Let's stand united in an attempt to keep the freedoms and our right to choose who and what we spend our hard earned money on.

Well said Swiss. I couldn't agree more. The federal government is nothing but a legalized Tony Soprano. A mafia shake-down artist. Ban ecigs? Are you kidding? They'd never do that. But they can and I guarantee you that they will, tax the hell out of them. And a lot of people who were afraid they'd ban them will be happy paying large taxes.

I hate to be so pessimistic, and frankly, I don't have a lot of tolerance for some of those posting here and their viewpoints. Some folks here should have woke up a long time ago. This battle against federal infringement has been going on for years. We just had a presidential election in which that was the major issue at hand. But so many people were too clueless to see that.

I helped organize the very first TEA party only to watch the media and so-called "progressives" demonize us as right-wing radicals (I was a Democrat by the way). We were "racists". TEA stands for "taxed enough already" and this little drama playing out with ecigs was exactly the kind of scenario we were fighting against, in all facets of life.

I hate to put it this way, but the battle has already been lost. Anyone who thinks they can make a difference, well, forget it. Save your energy. No one is banning ecigs. But you can be sure that they will become very expensive and that, as Swiss pointed out, only the richest of the rich and the federal government will be making money off of them. And the UNREGULATED Chinese manufacturers.

 

[DC2]

Anyone who thinks they can make a difference, well, forget it. Save your energy.

Then how in the hell do you explain the fact that we HAVE made a difference many times, and continue to do so?
I can assure you that I understand the reasons for your attitude, but you aren't helping anything.

 

[Vapor Vinny]

Then how in the hell do you explain the fact that we HAVE made a difference many times, and continue to do so?
I can assure you that I understand the reasons for your attitude, but you aren't helping anything.

If you're fighting to keep ecigs from being banned then congrats...mission accomplished. They're not going to be banned. So what are we fighting for now?

Ecigs and vendors as we know them are going to vanish. They're may be something we can do about that, but debating the health effects of ecigs isn't going to accomplish that. We've already demonstrated that ecigs have MAJOR MARKET potential. That's all the gubment needed to see.

Now, a smart government that had the economic well-being of its citizens in mind would start looking at ways it can help American manufacturers compete with Chinese manufacturers. What our government is going to do instead is put no thought into this and simply create some laws that will make it even harder to open a business in America while at the same time take as much money as it can from its citizens.

Lets at least frame the issue correctly so that we can fight the right battle.

 

[DC2]

If you're fighting to keep ecigs from being banned then congrats...mission accomplished.

There is no mission accomplished on ANY front yet.
When the FDA issues their deeming regulation we will have a better idea of the extent of their intended intrusion.

The word "ban" should be taken to also include the concept of regulation that would hinder or prevent our access to effective and affordable products.
In that sense, a "ban" is still a very real and possible outcome.

In fact, it is exactly what they are currently working on doing in the European Union.

Lets at least frame the issue correctly so that we can fight the right battle.

What is the right battle then?

Are you fine with the elimination of online sales?
Are you fine with the elimination of flavors?
Are you fine with having access to only tamper-proof sealed cartomizers?
Are you fine with not being able to vape in a public park?

I won't ask if you are fine with heavy taxation, because I know you're not.
In fact, it seems to be the only thing that concerns you.

And in that, I believe you are seriously mistaken.

 

[2coils]

There is no mission accomplished on ANY front yet.
When the FDA issues their deeming regulation we will have a better idea of the extent of their intended intrusion.

The word "ban" should be taken to also include the concept of regulation that would hinder or prevent our access to effective and affordable products.
In that sense, a "ban" is still a very real and possible outcome.

In fact, it is exactly what they are currently working on doing in the European Union.


What is the right battle then?

Are you fine with the elimination of online sales?
Are you fine with the elimination of flavors?
Are you fine with having access to only tamper-proof sealed cartomizers?
Are you fine with not being able to vape in a public park?

I won't ask if you are fine with heavy taxation, because I know you're not.
In fact, it seems to be the only thing that concerns you.

And in that, I believe you are seriously mistaken.

Well Said Sir!!! Not a knock on anyone....but even skimming through the rest of the forum, many of our fellow members still dont understand the essence of our problems. This post should be seen by all!

 

[aikanae1]

If you're fighting to keep ecigs from being banned then congrats...mission accomplished. They're not going to be banned. So what are we fighting for now?

Ecigs and vendors as we know them are going to vanish. They're may be something we can do about that, but debating the health effects of ecigs isn't going to accomplish that. We've already demonstrated that ecigs have MAJOR MARKET potential. That's all the gubment needed to see.

Now, a smart government that had the economic well-being of its citizens in mind would start looking at ways it can help American manufacturers compete with Chinese manufacturers. What our government is going to do instead is put no thought into this and simply create some laws that will make it even harder to open a business in America while at the same time take as much money as it can from its citizens.

Lets at least frame the issue correctly so that we can fight the right battle.

Under the the "family tobacco" act, everything developed after 2007 will need to go through an approval process that has no chance of getting approval - except for companies already "grandfathered" in. The majority of devices that are in use now will disapear and any new contraptions will be buried in insanely ridiculous, catch-22 approval processes for decades - new devices will probaby never see the light of day.

The devil is in the details. The lanquaqe and expections of the act make it impossible for any new developments. That's a BAN. The act doesn't serve any public interest and it was designed to be that way.

The government is a tool of the corporation because the corporation is bigger than the government. That's what "privitization" and "smaller government" has done. Since when did cashing investment checks become "hard work"? It's a parasite economy and not sustainable. There isn't a two-party system. It's a system of one party not as owned as the other, or picking the lessor of the evils.

This is why I think one of the main focuses of CASAA, or of people that support vaping, needs to focus on is outreach, to both smokers and non smokers. The masses still have power and it will take a lot of people to outweigh those that do have a seat at the table.

I think the worst fear of those that are corupt is to have the population realize they are not as divided in principle.

​

 

[Petrodus]

It's a "big club" ...
and you and I aren't in the "big club" Link

 

[Vapor Vinny]

Are you fine with the elimination of online sales?
Are you fine with the elimination of flavors?
Are you fine with having access to only tamper-proof sealed cartomizers?
Are you fine with not being able to vape in a public park?

I'm not fine wit any of those. And I think the only way any of those come about is via the decision to tax. If they decide to tax, then they have to control the product in a manner that makes it taxable. Which is pre-filled, sealed stuff that is only made by major corporations who can afford such packaging. All this sucks and is quite a lesson in American civics. I don't mean to make you think I only care about taxation, but if there wasn't a tax revenue incentive for the government, they wouldn't otherwise give such a poop. That's what I think.

 

[DC2]

I'm not fine wit any of those. And I think the only way any of those come about is via the decision to tax. If they decide to tax, then they have to control the product in a manner that makes it taxable. Which is pre-filled, sealed stuff that is only made by major corporations who can afford such packaging. All this sucks and is quite a lesson in American civics. I don't mean to make you think I only care about taxation, but if there wasn't a tax revenue incentive for the government, they wouldn't otherwise give such a poop. That's what I think.

Some of those things are already happening or being attempted right now, and have nothing to do with taxes.
The driving force behind almost all of the regulation we have been seeing is the ANTZ, Big Pharma, and now Big Tobacco.

If this was all really about the government and taxation, the primary objective would be to eliminate electronic cigarettes.
It just so happens that corresponds nicely with the objective of the other aforementioned parties.

Elimination of electronic cigarettes doesn't have to mean an outright ban though.
It can also mean anything that makes them less appealing, less effective, less affordable, or less available.

 

[retired1]

While I disagree with the ham fisted methods employed by the FDA, I do feel that some regulation regarding the manufacture and packaging of ejuice is necessary. I'm not comfortable with ordering juice that was possibly made in Billy Bob's basement. There should be minimum health standards maintained during the manufacture and packaging of ejuice. This is better for everyone in the long run.

 

[Petrodus]

While I disagree with the ham fisted methods employed by the FDA, I do feel that some regulation regarding the manufacture and packaging of ejuice is necessary. I'm not comfortable with ordering juice that was possibly made in Billy Bob's basement. There should be minimum health standards maintained during the manufacture and packaging of ejuice. This is better for everyone in the long run.

There's no such thing as "Limited" Regulation

 

[bsidb]

While I disagree with the ham fisted methods employed by the FDA, I do feel that some regulation regarding the manufacture and packaging of ejuice is necessary. I'm not comfortable with ordering juice that was possibly made in Billy Bob's basement. There should be minimum health standards maintained during the manufacture and packaging of ejuice. This is better for everyone in the long run.

How about , as a consumer, doing some of your own reseach into who you buy from, instead of asking the government to do it!!

 

[retired1]

I didn't say "limited". However, as ejuice is manufactured for "human consumption", there should be a minimum standard that manufacturers must follow in the making and packaging of that product.

 

[bsidb]

There's no such thing as Minimum" Regulation

Once it starts... it wont stay "Minimum"

 

[Petrodus]

How about , as a consumer, doing some of your own research into who you buy from,
instead of asking the government to do it!!

 

[Vapor Vinny]

I didn't say "limited". However, as ejuice is manufactured for "human consumption", there should be a minimum standard that manufacturers must follow in the making and packaging of that product.

Why? If you don't trust it, don't buy it. It's pretty simple.

 

[Agorizer]

<snip>.......The government is a tool of the corporation because the corporation is bigger than the government. That's what "privitization" and "smaller government" has done. Since when did cashing investment checks become "hard work"? It's a parasite economy and not sustainable. There isn't a two-party system. It's a system of one party not as owned as the other, or picking the lessor of the evils. .....SNIP>

"Size" isn't the issue that defines who is in control. The Brontosaurus didn't "control" the T-Rex. Control comes from the barrel of a gun. (Thus the 2nd amendment). "Corporations" are an INVENTION OF THE STATE. And, like the actual beings that they are given the powers (but not the responsibilities) of, they are rational actors. Power and control, once established over the individual, becomes a commodity. Those actors with the financial ability to BUY the commodity will do so--totally rational. As long as people think that somehow, politicians hold votes in higher esteem than dollars, we're screwed. In reality, that transaction is just as unfortunate for liberty whether it is purchased through dollars or votes. It is the commodity itself that is the evil. And speaking of hard work; there is no class as parasitical as the bureaucratic class, which produces nothing.

I'm not fine wit any of those. And I think the only way any of those come about is via the decision to tax. If they decide to tax, then they have to control the product in a manner that makes it taxable. Which is pre-filled, sealed stuff that is only made by major corporations who can afford such packaging. All this sucks and is quite a lesson in American civics. I don't mean to make you think I only care about taxation, but if there wasn't a tax revenue incentive for the government, they wouldn't otherwise give such a poop. That's what I think.

It's not "the power to tax"; it's THE POWER. We need to be wise Hobbits and heed Gandolph's warning.

While I disagree with the ham fisted methods employed by the FDA, I do feel that some regulation regarding the manufacture and packaging of ejuice is necessary. I'm not comfortable with ordering juice that was possibly made in Billy Bob's basement. There should be minimum health standards maintained during the manufacture and packaging of ejuice. This is better for everyone in the long run.

But their fists are made of ham. Standards=fantastic. Find vendors that meet the standard you desire. FDA standards= a gun in everyone's ribs.

I didn't say "limited". However, as ejuice is manufactured for "human consumption", there should be a minimum standard that manufacturers must follow in the making and packaging of that product.

See above. The "mad cow" debacle is enlightening. USDA did nothing to ensure consumers safety. They decided to put the NAIS system in place, which, like the cops that show up after the rape/robbery is over, only looks at what has already happened. They didn't actually want to test meat for pathogens. They wanted every living thing to be micro chipped (at the producer's expense, of course.) And when one producer said that it was going to do it's own testing, it was FORBIDDEN from doing so by the guys with guns who love us so much. The effect is to run the small producers (family farms that all politicians claim to champion) out of the market, leaving only the big guys, which is where these disease outbreaks usually come from.

 

[aikanae1]

I'm not comfortable with ordering juice that was possibly made in Billy Bob's basement.

I took a look at several packs of cigarettes and there is no mention of how much tar / nicotine there was. Earlier this year, I started buying a brand that claimed they were "natural" and went to the website looking for what they consider to be "natural" - Nothing. No information. Cigarette makers have fended off requests for product disclosure based on the fact it's propietary information. I have seen crediable information that the additives (that no one knows about) could number anywhere from 1,000 to 10,000. That really makes me ANGRY that tobacco companies STILL don't have to respond. And 'they' (the vigilanti anti-smokers) are worried about menthol??? or flavor's in e-cigs???? Give me a break. It's BS.

No one has ever argued against regulation for quality control of things like nicotine juice, sales to mnors, battery safety, even inspection as if it was a food product - but this is not what this is about. In fact none of those things are on the table at all. There's no serious, common-sense driven discussion or debate about those items or anything else related to "public safety". Notta unless it can be spun into something that limits the sale of e-cigs to the general public (like minors).

GIVE ME THE BASEMENT! I am very impressed with how forthcoming e juice vendors I have dealt with, have been about what they are using in their juices. Maybe it's because I don't frequent those who aren't. Many of them allow the public to tour their production facilities. The juices are labeled, dates, percentages of nic and base, etc. I'm not aware of a DIY-er selling juices on the internet. Maybe they are locally, idk. The simple answer is "Don't buy it, if you don't know what's in it". The customer has the choice and there's plenty of choices right now.

If e-juice is rolled back to only major tobacco companies again, then what? My bet is it will be like a pack of cigarettes where what is actually in it is anyones guess because they are protected from revealing any information including nicotine content. Please note that major tobacco companies are grandfathered in and the act doesn't apply to them. IF controls, inspections, labeling were given regulations, the tobacco companies wouldn' need to change a thing. Nor would pharmecuticals and makers of ineffective NRT's.

I have far more confiedence in the current system. Give me the basment anyday over what tobacco companies do. At least I have an illusion of knowing what I'm buying.

This isn't about "safety".

 

[aikanae1]

I didn't say "limited". However, as ejuice is manufactured for "human consumption", there should be a minimum standard that manufacturers must follow in the making and packaging of that product.

Then you'll want to submit another bill / act to add onto this one because none of those things are included, and even if they were, they wouldn't apply to products on the market before 2007.

​

 

[swissfactor]

Well said Swiss. I couldn't agree more. The federal government is nothing but a legalized Tony Soprano. A mafia shake-down artist. Ban ecigs? Are you kidding? They'd never do that. But they can and I guarantee you that they will, tax the hell out of them. And a lot of people who were afraid they'd ban them will be happy paying large taxes.

I hate to be so pessimistic, and frankly, I don't have a lot of tolerance for some of those posting here and their viewpoints. Some folks here should have woke up a long time ago. This battle against federal infringement has been going on for years. We just had a presidential election in which that was the major issue at hand. But so many people were too clueless to see that.

I helped organize the very first TEA party only to watch the media and so-called "progressives" demonize us as right-wing radicals (I was a Democrat by the way). We were "racists". TEA stands for "taxed enough already" and this little drama playing out with ecigs was exactly the kind of scenario we were fighting against, in all facets of life.

I hate to put it this way, but the battle has already been lost. Anyone who thinks they can make a difference, well, forget it. Save your energy. No one is banning ecigs. But you can be sure that they will become very expensive and that, as Swiss pointed out, only the richest of the rich and the federal government will be making money off of them. And the UNREGULATED Chinese manufacturers.

i think what vapor vinny is trying to say (and correct me if i am wrong) is that its pointless to try to keep these weasels out of our pockets...