FDA to propose rule on ecigarettes Monday 4-28-2014

[drummerskey]

But does it worry you at all having an unregulated product? Not having quality standards does scare me because I want to make sure I'm getting the highest quality eliquid.

In my opinion............in theory, a product regulated by the market is the best solution but it is just a theory any more. We, as a collective people buy and want the cheapest thing we can buy 9 times out of 10. This means that the market is then dictated by price, not quality. There are some of us who will pay more for a real product or what we perceive to be the better quality but I would tell you that it a minority..........regardless of what anyone says.

People were working in just awful conditions to manufacture iPhones and they felt bad for those people but there would be riots in the streets if they made a better quality product in the USA but it would raise the price of the iPhone by 100%. The company with the cheapest price wins and just because a company buys in bulk doesn't mean they will be the victor. This means that in a capitalist society; the company who can come up with the cheapest price by making cheaper products through less quality, less workers, less testing, etc wins.

You know what I really wish when I read posts like this................that e-cig manufacturers and retailers saw the writing on the wall back in 2009 and took a more active approach in setting their own quality standards and lobbying the government to keep their companies in business for the long term instead of what I assume most did, just rake in the profits and ride the wave while they could.

Having said all that, government intervention rarely solves a problem. Whoever has their hands deepest in the politician's pocket wins.......they don't care about you or your health.

 

[paigekoontz]

This statement is a big problem for me.

Okay and I can see why. I understand that products on shelves are unregulated such as some air freshners, herbal remedies etc... What I should have better explained was, I don't think electronic cigarettes should be in the the unregulated category because of the societal negative stigmas attached to "unregulated products." I want everyone to try ecigs and I don't want anyone to turn it away just because of a stigma associated with those types of products because ecigs are so much more than the negative connotations many people today attach to an unregulated product. Regardless, it's been a tobacco product since 2009 and for logical reasons which I stated on an earlier thread. This industry picked up fast and deeming it as a tobacco product was the best way to keep our ecigs in our hands.

 

[-mj01-]

Well first of all, it is a tobacco product as of 2009 when the FDA was trying to ban us all together. We have to have regulation, there's no way around it. It's a product on a shelf, you can't just have it unregulated so I'm unclear about what your proposed the plan of action is? And if we don't need government oversight, what do you propose? We let each state handle it? Is it safe to assume you're not from a state that has already imposed a 95% tax on electronic cigarettes? Every state creating their own regulations will not help this industry. Like in California for instance, where they are trying to ban ecomerce sales (online). I know that national regulation will be tough, but it will not be worse that each state creating and implementing their own rules.

Firstly and perhaps most importantly - I'm not of the belief that all products on all shelves must have regulation.

As an adult, I do not need a "nanny". Most of the adults I associate with are also not in need of a "nanny".

As I hinted on, this industry is more than capable of self-regulation. There are some bad eggs - businesses that think it is acceptable to sell to minors, for example. That, however, is the minority.

Juice makers can and should have standards (list ingredients in full - which I might add is more than tobacco companies are required to do in their cigarettes). They should also require a child-proof top (again, more than cigarettes are required to use), and perhaps even a "warning or some sort of wording stating minors are forbidden from use).

As far as batteries and accessories are concerned, this is a non-runner, as minors can purchase rolling papers, so there's really nothing to see here.

In terms of taxing, the state is appropriate in collecting sales tax at the normal state rate for other goods & services. The feds are appropriate taxing the earnings at the business level and/or personal income level. Any extra taxes beyond that are not appropriate. How to tax anything PV related __more__ is really the meat & potatoes of the issue here. Anything beyond the taxation issue is really just distortion because those in power are really after the tax money - how to tap this industry as a resource and how to keep the well flowing in the traditional tobacco industry.

 

[Jeffk123]

Okay and I can see why. I understand that products on shelves are unregulated such as some air freshners, herbal remedies etc... What I should have better explained was, I don't think electronic cigarettes should be in the the unregulated category because of the societal negative stigmas attached to "unregulated products." I want everyone to try ecigs and I don't want anyone to turn it away just because of a stigma associated with those types of products because ecigs are so much more than the negative connotations many people today attach to an unregulated product. Regardless, it's been a tobacco product since 2009 and for logical reasons which I stated on an earlier thread. This industry picked up fast and deeming it as a tobacco product was the best way to keep our ecigs in our hands.

I can understand your logic but they just won't leave ecigs alone they will take them then the only thing you will get is blu type ecigs with their $5 prefilled cartos with no flavoring. This is why we need to fight regulation

 

[tj99959]

The last thing I worry about is a ban on flavorings. That's an easy work-around. I can see sites selling unflavored juice and also selling pre-mixed "food" flavorings. The real problem is if they make regulations that are so expensive to comply with that only the tobacco industry can afford it. Then they'll only have bland, pre-filled, tamper-proof cartridges which will be taxed to the limit.

That's exactlly what BT has been lobbying for. Thus all the "flavoring markets kids", and "babies are drinking e-liquid" nonsense in the news.

OH-and, instead of *[Insert Witty Signature here]*, how about joining CASAA

 

[drummerskey]

Okay and I can see why. I understand that products on shelves are unregulated such as some air freshners, herbal remedies etc... What I should have better explained was, I don't think electronic cigarettes should be in the the unregulated category because of the societal negative stigmas attached to "unregulated products." I want everyone to try ecigs and I don't want anyone to turn it away just because of a stigma associated with those types of products because ecigs are so much more than the negative connotations many people today attach to an unregulated product. Regardless, it's been a tobacco product since 2009 and for logical reasons which I stated on an earlier thread. This industry picked up fast and deeming it as a tobacco product was the best way to keep our ecigs in our hands.

The issue with your statement is that e-ciggs are to other actual tobacco products as plastic lazer gun toys are to real guns. Most of your juice is synthesized nicotine......not derived from tobacco unless stated as such. There is no stigma with herbal supplements for body building. Attaching it to tobacco is the worst thing to keep e-cigs in our hands and like a previous poster said, the worst thing that we did as a group is continue to actually call it an "e-cig". I understand your opinion and respect it but honestly, the best way to keep e-cigs in our hands is to educate non-vapers.

Firstly and perhaps most importantly - I'm not of the belief that all products on all shelves must have regulation.

As an adult, I do not need a "nanny". Most of the adults I associate with are also not in need of a "nanny".

As I hinted on, this industry is more than capable of self-regulation. There are some bad eggs - businesses that think it is acceptable to sell to minors, for example. That, however, is the minority.

Juice makers can and should have standards (list ingredients in full - which I might add is more than tobacco companies are required to do in their cigarettes). They should also require a child-proof top (again, more than cigarettes are required to use), and perhaps even a "warning or some sort of wording stating minors are forbidden from use).

As far as batteries and accessories are concerned, this is a non-runner, as minors can purchase rolling papers, so there's really nothing to see here.

In terms of taxing, the state is appropriate in collecting sales tax at the normal state rate for other goods & services. The feds are appropriate taxing the earnings at the business level and/or personal income level. Any extra taxes beyond that are not appropriate. How to tax anything PV related __more__ is really the meat & potatoes of the issue here. Anything beyond the taxation issue is really just distortion because those in power are really after the tax money - how to tap this industry as a resource and how to keep the well flowing in the traditional tobacco industry.

For the politicians' pockets..........I mean, the kids

 

[Jeffk123]

That's exactlly what BT has been lobbying for. Thus all the "flavoring markets kids", and "babies are drinking e-liquid" nonsense in the news.

OH-and, instead of *[Insert Witty Signature here]*, how about joining CASAA

Plenty of members have that sig and its plastered all over the forum I think my sig is just fine thank you very much

 

[CassiusCloud]

Yea I agree that regulation will most definitely bring on taxation. I do feel bad for the states that have approved a 95% tax because that is ridiculous. But does it worry you at all having an unregulated product? Not having quality standards does scare me because I want to make sure I'm getting the highest quality eliquid. I'm also really curious about the effects of heating the flavoring. If burnt sugar can be a carcinogen, is there any possibility that these flavorings can pose any threat? Does anyone have any hard evidence about it? I'm just curious.

we've been cooking and eating heated flavored food for a good while now..as well as smelling them fill the house while they cook..
sugar is in all kinds of foods and is getting cooked at many temperatures..it's in pizza sauce getting cooked at 500 degrees..
if sugar burns it will smoke not turn to vapor..

 

[paigekoontz]

Just saw a clip of GMA report from today about nicotine poisoning in kids. The last statement by the reporter:

Video is on TVECA's website

 

[pamdis]

Okay and I can see why. I understand that products on shelves are unregulated such as some air freshners, herbal remedies etc... What I should have better explained was, I don't think electronic cigarettes should be in the the unregulated category because of the societal negative stigmas attached to "unregulated products." I want everyone to try ecigs and I don't want anyone to turn it away just because of a stigma associated with those types of products because ecigs are so much more than the negative connotations many people today attach to an unregulated product. Regardless, it's been a tobacco product since 2009 and for logical reasons which I stated on an earlier thread. This industry picked up fast and deeming it as a tobacco product was the best way to keep our ecigs in our hands.

Execpt:

The stigma is not because it's unregulated. The people who want to take it from us use the 'unregulated' argument IN ORDER to attach the stigma to it.

Regulating it will not remove the stigma, rather it will then allow them to increase the stigma, by saying 'If it were harmless, it wouldn't need regulation, ergo it must be even worse than we thought."

"deeming it as a tobacco product was the best way to keep our ecigs in our hands" - this is actually the quickest way to lose them.

Take a leisurely read through here:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...e-products-eliminate-many-most-companies.html

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...op-fda-giving-e-cig-industry-big-tobacco.html

 

[paigekoontz]

we've been cooking and eating heated flavored food for a good while now..as well as smelling them fill the house while they cook..
sugar is in all kinds of foods and is getting cooked at many temperatures..it's in pizza sauce getting cooked at 500 degrees..
if sugar burns it will smoke not turn to vapor..

I was using sugar as an example of something that does turn carcinogenic when burnt as a reference for inquiring about the process of over heating flavoring. Do you have any relevant information directly related to my inquiry?

 

[tj99959]

we've been cooking and eating heated flavored food for a good while now..as well as smelling them fill the house while they cook..
sugar is in all kinds of foods and is getting cooked at many temperatures..it's in pizza sauce getting cooked at 500 degrees..
if sugar burns it will smoke not turn to vapor..

Ya they should ban putting mustard on hot dogs sense they think adults don't like/need flavorings.

 

[paigekoontz]

Execpt:

The stigma is not because it's unregulated. The people who want to take it from us use the 'unregulated' argument IN ORDER to attach the stigma to it.

Regulating it will not remove the stigma, rather it will then allow them to increase the stigma, by saying 'If it were harmless, it wouldn't need regulation, ergo it must be even worse than we thought."

"deeming it as a tobacco product was the best way to keep our ecigs in our hands" - this is actually the quickest way to lose them.

Take a leisurely read through here:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...e-products-eliminate-many-most-companies.html

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...op-fda-giving-e-cig-industry-big-tobacco.html

Well in 2009 when the FDA wanted to ban them altogether what would have been a better option? Submitting a Substantial Equivalency form that the FDA would have probably just reviewed indefinitely or submit it as a New Product Status and then the FDA would have had 180 days to make a decision. So yes, in 2009 deeming it a tobacco product was the best way to keep our ecigs in our hands. Unless you have an alternative they could have taken. Do you?

 

[timbur00]

If you took nicotine out of the equation, what would they have to regulate?

 

[-mj01-]

Well in 2009 when the FDA wanted to ban them altogether what would have been a better option? Submitting a Substantial Equivalency form that the FDA would have probably just reviewed indefinitely or submit it as a New Product Status and then the FDA would have had 180 days to make a decision. So yes, in 2009 deeming it a tobacco product was the best way to keep our ecigs in our hands. Unless you have an alternative they could have taken. Do you?

If a chef comes up with a new dish at his restaurant that he wishes to serve to his patrons, does he need to submit an application to the FDA to legally do so?

I mean, with the exception of the cartoon video on your website, it looks rather compliant without any government agency instructing you how what to put on it. Would you not agree, paige?

 

[Sirius]

Yea I agree that regulation will most definitely bring on taxation. I do feel bad for the states that have approved a 95% tax because that is ridiculous. But does it worry you at all having an unregulated product? Not having quality standards does scare me because I want to make sure I'm getting the highest quality eliquid.I'm also really curious about the effects of heating the flavoring. If burnt sugar can be a carcinogen, is there any possibility that these flavorings can pose any threat? Does anyone have any hard evidence about it? I'm just curious.

You can request one of these standard forms for vape grade nicotine from any online vendor as I do from online DIY sites. I use NicSelect
https://www.myfreedomsmokes.com/product_images/NicSelect_Flier.pdf
That's really all I am concerned with as I have seen no legitimate tests of side effects from vaping PG or VG or even the flavors for that matter. It all boils down to researching who you get your liquids from really. I have no bigger concerns other than the FDA regulations on nicotine tbh.

 

[drummerskey]

If you took nicotine out of the equation, what would they have to regulate?

What would you replace the nicotine with? Most of us are using e-cigs to not smoke cigarettes so taking the nicotine out really isn't an acceptable option. It's already mostly synthetic nicotine.............but, they could regulate the batteries and toppers. Not so sure about Peaches N Cream yarn (some sewing enthusiast would be ......) and kanthal.

 

[pamdis]

Well in 2009 when the FDA wanted to ban them altogether what would have been a better option? Submitting a Substantial Equivalency form that the FDA would have probably just reviewed indefinitely or submit it as a New Product Status and then the FDA would have had 180 days to make a decision. So yes, in 2009 deeming it a tobacco product was the best way to keep our ecigs in our hands. Unless you have an alternative they could have taken. Do you?

It was not deemed a tobacco product back in 2009. FDA has been threatening to deem it as such since then, as the judge in that case told them that it the only way they CAN regulate it. I truly believe that deeming/regulating it is just a code word for ... take it away from us as they originally intended back in 2009. Rumor has it they are finally going to come out with the proposed deeming next week.

My alternative would be to not deem it a tobacco product, but let it continue on as a consumer product. I think it works just fine as is.

 

[CassiusCloud]

I was using sugar as an example of something that does turn carcinogenic when burnt as a reference for inquiring about the process of over heating flavoring. Do you have any relevant information directly related to my inquiry?

Your wording made it sound as if you were speaking of both,one being burnt and the other being only heated not overheated..
Hence the confusion on my part..

 

[shelzmike]

50 people damaged by ecigs in the last year. Poison control center emergencies up. Nico poison complaints & shortness of breath etc. people are scared & the FDA to the rescue. Just heard on the radio 2 minutes a ago . Miami WIOD 610.

Now, what do you think is going to happen? Huh?..

I hope it was a call in show and hope that you called in (perhaps not literally, but my point is...at every turn we need to do SOMETHING when we can...there has got to at least be a separate voice to be heard).

Mike