Fear from FDA, Family Members, etc That Vaping is Long Term Substitue for Other Addictions

[Mohamed]

I apologize up front as I Am not meaning for this to be double post but really did not want to derail my original post http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ing-nicotine-strength-goal-zero-nicotine.html but really have to ask this.

I'm new again maybe two weeks and have gone from 1.25 packs a day down to 0.25 packs a day in a week and probably 3 analogs total in the 2nd week. So I am doing good but there is one aspect that I can not explain to people who question this method of quitting.

I think a lot of the fear from people I have discussed using this as a quitting tool is that I am just replacing one addiction with another. As 99.9% of you are going to say; and I full heartily agree; this is a much better alternative than being addicted to analog cigarettes. That being said I really would like to eliminate that as a valid argument because for some this is just not a valid argument; and to a certain point I see their position as a valid position.

With other nicotine delivery systems either the gum, the patch, lozenges, etc there is a recommended set of procedures that you follow...i.e. you are on step one for x amount of weeks at y mg of nicotine per day and you gradually step down to w amount of weeks on z mg of nicotine per day and so forth.

With vaping we don't have a set standard we just say vape as much as you want until you get off analogs. Then work your way down to zero nicotine (IF YOU WANT). After you get down to 0 nicotine (IF YOU WANT) work your way off of vaping all together. To you and me as X smokers this seems very reasonable...and again in the back of our minds the "Ohh it's healthier" mentality prevails as valid reason for us to do this long term. But in reality some people in society (and to an extent myself) just never will agree with this thought process. To some an addiction regardless of if it is gambling, alcohol, drugs, or nicotine it doesn't matter. Once your mind has gotten to the point of addiction and YOU can no longer control it you/your mind is considered weak and infected. None of these are bad in moderation but again once you/your mind has crossed that threshold from a healthy moderate indulgence to an uncontrollable addiction it is no longer healthy and seen as a weakness in ones mind/body.

Again being an X smoker and addicted to nicotine I really don't want to admit this but do feel that to a certain extent THEY have a valid point and at some point the healthiness of switching from one addiction to another even though it is healthier loses it's steam. It's only valid to a point if you are eventually going to continue with step 2, step 3, and then quitting. If you are going to continue to use this as an addiction for the rest of your life what's the point? I hope this doesn't turn into a healthier/healthier rant by other members as I am really looking for a way to shoot the argument of continued dependency down. Some family members and friends just seem stuck on that point and as I said, to an extent I honestly agree with them and can't argue that point if I am honestly going to use this as just a substitute for the rest of my life.

Not to go against forum rules and bringing up illicit drugs with no purpose but historically doctors have tried to ween people off of one addiction by transferring their addiction to another substance or another method of ingesting the drug. Unintentionally some of the addicts were worst off than before. This can be seen in history prior to WWI throughout WWII and into the 60's with [other things].

Admittedly we are not talking about a transfer of one drug addiction to another but rather the method of ingestion...well inhalation is the same and is also the same method of ingestion but we are transferring our addiction to a purer product...one that could potentially become more addictive in some subjects regardless of if method two of ingestion is "healthier" than method one. The idea that it may leave the subject just as dependent or more dependent is of valid concern to many regardless of the possible health benefits.

How do some of you go about debating this catch 22 with this method of quitting smoking?

Please keep this thread on topic and not diverge too much into the "healthier" debate. While I do agree it has some relevance; but as stated to a certain extent it doesn't answer/refute the claim of addiction transfer and possible higher addiction with the new transfer method.

If you want to provide methods of getting down to 0 nicotine and eventually getting down to zero vaping please refer to original post http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ing-nicotine-strength-goal-zero-nicotine.html

 

[InTheShade]

Nicotine addiction is just another drug addiction, although doctors are treating it more as a disease than a 'straightforward' addiction.

I just choose to satisfy my addiction with a different delivery system. Yes, there are those that will say I have swapped one addiction for another - but they don't understand the addiction wasn't smoking, it was nicotine.

So I have not swapped anything other than the delivery device and the vehicle for carrying nicotine in to my body.

Now you can talk about the differences in weaning off nicotine being easier with vaping than with cigarettes, but then you get in to a whole area that has absolutely no statistical analysis at all.

So, for me, vaping satisfies my nicotine addiction by improving the delivery device. Nothing more, nothing less. There is no more or less dependency on nicotine.

 

[Nicolay]

The only reason I would want to reduce down to 0-nic or getting off vaping completely is that traveling and customs and what have you may be a chore. Other than that ... I do enjoy the act of puffing on something and that is what I'm looking for in vaping, a habit that allows me this without the fear of imminent painful death. Can sit painting / sketching and puff away without the twang of guilt.

Not using vaping to quit inhaling nicotine or breaking a habit ... using it to quit all the bad substances in cigs while making some people rich in the process.

 

[Mohamed]

Now you can talk about the differences in weaning off nicotine being easier with vaping than with cigarettes, but then you get in to a whole area that has absolutely no statistical analysis at all.

I think this is the area I want this discussion to go and unfortunately I don't think we have a lot of scientific or statistical studies to go off. We really only have subjective statements from vapors with "no real data". Regardless of that fact how do you justify to family members, friends, etc that all you have done is transfer the delivery system. But in reality you are still just as addicted to nicotine as you were before?

Maybe your family, friends, etc are more accepting of the "healthier" fact...but again a lot of the people I associate with still see it as a weakness. Also to a certain extent I agree with them that being dependent on any drug even if it's just caffeine in coffee probably isn't healthy. My sister had headaches for months when going from a 6 diet cokes a day to zero. That may be part aspartame or whatever the unnatural sugar is...but again my point is addiction is weakness. I don't want to have a nicotine addiction for years as I personally don't feel that is healthy.

To each their own...but for me I don't want to have an addiction looming over my head forever and ever. Welcome everyone's thoughts and do not want to put anyone down that has quit smoking analogs in exchange for ecigs. This is my personal battle with myself, my family, and my friends. I truly want to be addiction free at some point.

For those of you that want to vape on...vape on. I'm not judging you.

 

[Rickajho]

Hi.

Sheesh, this drives me nuts. Someone quits smoking (and you aren't even fully there yet....), and someone immediately starts nagging "so when are ya gonna quit that too?"

The way I say you should explain it is you replaced an addiction to nicotine with... an addiction to nicotine. In other words - nothing about your addiction changed. There is no "another" going on here. What's their point?

And unless any of them are your doctor they just need to back off. My MD has a big problem with smoking. Both my MD and my allergist know I quit, and know I'm still vaping two years after I quit. They don't have any issues with vaping - even my crazy insane 24 mg liquids. Actually my MD thinks there is more placebo than nicotine going on here. I have asked him to do those blood tests to check my nic level - he refused because he doesn't think it's medically relevant.

Beyond that, people who are quitting smoking are known to be rather "touchy" and can fly off the handle in a split second. So if you ended up in a screaming fit, well, they had it coming anyway.

 

[Mohamed]

The only reason I would want to reduce down to 0-nic or getting off vaping completely is that traveling and customs and what have you may be a chore. Other than that ... I do enjoy the act of puffing on something and that is what I'm looking for in vaping, a habit that allows me this without the fear of imminent painful death. Can sit painting / sketching and puff away without the twang of guilt.

Not using vaping to quit inhaling nicotine or breaking a habit ... using it to quit all the bad substances in cigs while making some people rich in the process.

I see your point; but I think it is going into the "healthier" debate. I'm really looking for a solid debate tactic to use when confronted with the "You are just transferring your smoking addiction to a purer nicotine addiction."

I would really like some type of counter argument to give to family, friends, and colleagues.

 

[Spazmelda]

Well, have you tried other methods to quit smoking? If so, did you have success? If you tried other methods, you might list them to those criticizing you, and just say, "I tried these things; x, y, and z. I tried them several times and did not have (long term) success. I really want to quit smoking, and I thought this method was worth a chance." You could reassure them that your ultimate goal is to quit quit nicotine all together and to eventually wean off off the e cigs, and that the idea of doing this at your own pace by gradually cutting down nicotine appeals to you.

If you really wanted to, you could present the list of compounds present in combusted cigarettes as compared a list of compounds (as far as we know) in vapor as support that vaping is much less unhealthy than cigarettes. You could Indicate that you feel it is logical to reduce harm from the method of nicotine delivery WHILE reducing nicotine. You could also point out that many researchers suspect that the synergistic nature of nicotine and other compounds in combusted smoke (namely MAOIs) contribute to the addictive nature of cigarettes. You can say that you find it logical that if you can first eliminate the other compounds, you might find it easier to get off the nicotine.

I absolutely hate that you are doubting this is a healthier move for you. I hate that the fear mongering and the the generally accepted misinformation that nicotine is the harmful aspect of smoking is causing you and your friends and family to question the validity of harm reduction.

Good luck to you.

 

[AttyPops]

If you worry so much...just quit.

If that doesn't work, find alternatives. E-cigs are one option. There are others. Some or any of them can be "stepping stones" to eventually giving up the nic.

I don't understand the confusion. Use the least-harm method that works for you.

Also, there's 7,000 or so chemicals in tobacco smoke. So you're giving up 6,997 or so chemicals.

 

[Mohamed]

The way I say you should explain it is you replaced an addiction to nicotine with... an addiction to nicotine. In other words - nothing about your addiction changed. There is no "another" going on here. What's their point?

The way most people see it that I have talked to is that is still an addiction and if there is no long term goal of getting off the addiction you are

1.) transferring one delivery system for another with admittedly the possible health benefits...but you are still an "addict"
or 2.) Transferring the addiction to a delivery system that is potentially more addictive than the original in which case the health benefits may or may not out way the psychological dependencies associated with the addiction. I'm not saying nicotine has many psychological, physical, or otherwise very harmful characteristics but the fact of the matter that one is still addicted to a substance is troublesome for many...including myself. As stated I really don't want to do this forever.

Beyond that, people who are quitting smoking are known to be rather "touchy" and can fly off the handle in a split second. So if you ended up in a screaming fit, well, they had it coming anyway.

I'd rather approach people with a calm and intellectual state of reasoning when confronting what I see as a valid argument. I just want to be informed and have a logical and more persuasive argument as possible.

And as for the [Other Stuff]...apparently free speech has it's limits on public forums. Ask you teachers or professors or research it on your own for drug addiction replacement therapy. That's not directed towards anyone in particular just found that it was unnecessary censorship as I was not promoting or glorifying drug use in any way. I was simply stating historical facts that can be found in any high school or college history text book...at least when I was growing up. Not sure how far p.c. has gone now days to erase history.

 

[Spazmelda]

It's not really PC reasons for censoring drug references. Those opposed to ecigs will seize on anything they can to denigrate them. Having a bunch of ecig users taking about other drugs is ammunition for them. Since the mods here really don't have time to go around and analyze every drug reference to know the particulars of how thwt reference was made, there is an automatic censor. It's nothing personal.

 

[InTheShade]

The whole point of not allowing drug talk here is if someone searches for drug references, the powers that be do not want ECF coming up in any search. You can understand the position, it's a vaping forum and a lot of people are trying to link vaping with other things that are not legal.

You signed up for this when you joined the forum, this is not a free speech issue, this is a private forum which you have been invited to, but the agenda is the owners to define.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/new-members-information/255864-why-we-dont-allow-drug-talk.html

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/ecf-forum-rules/51178-forum-rules.html

 

[Spazmelda]

The way most people see it that I have talked to is that is still an addiction and if there is no long term goal of getting off the addiction you are

It seems you do have a long term goal of getting off the addiction though? I'm kind of agreeing with attypops now. If you are so worried about it, just quit. You are going against decades of puritanistic conditioning that addiction is bad in and of itself. Philosophical question... Is addiction 'bad' or are the consequences of the addiction 'bad'? Is there a continuum of 'badness' depending in the harm the addiction does? Even if you see the logic in that last statement, many people won't and they never will (at least not until someone tries to ban or limit caffeine, lol).

 

[Mohamed]

Well, have you tried other methods to quit smoking? If so, did you have success?

I've tried them all. Except for the doctor prescribed pills. Patch did ok on step 1 but step 2 was too much of a drop. I've also chewed and did snus. I think nicotine is only part of the problem...other half is the hand and oral fixation of just keeping them busy all the time. As a grown man no one likes to hear that you need to keep your hands and mouth busy at all times. The pacifier argument is always next in line for that debate.

I absolutely hate that you are doubting this is a healthier move for you. I hate that the fear mongering and the the generally accepted misinformation that nicotine is the harmful aspect of smoking is causing you and your friends and family to question the validity of harm reduction.

I personally am not doubting this method. So far I really see it as working. I really am just looking for a way to present a valid argument to those that say I am replacing one addiction with another. To be honest I don't know if I necessarily care if I vape for years. I really do want to get to 0 nicotine though. Ideally I would not vape at all but again not sure if I care about that point. To be honest I truly don't have to explain to family members, friends, colleagues. I'm probably going to stick with this regardless. I was really just wanting logical and valid rebuttal to their question.

Again I personally see addiction as weakness either mental/physical but if I can get down to zero nicotine I can live with habit of vaping. To a lot of people however this method has no proven reduction in nicotine and is literately just a "healthier" alternative to the traditional addiction.

 

[InTheShade]

I really am just looking for a way to present a valid argument to those that say I am replacing one addiction with another. lot of people however this method has no proven reduction in nicotine and is literately just a "healthier" alternative to the traditional addiction.

Aside from the health benefits, there is no valid argument. The addiction remains, it's just the delivery system that is different.

 

[PinoyBoy]

If they aren't willing to accept that it is a healthier alternative, let them know that it is more convenient than smoking a cigarette. When I paint, draw, clean my car, do house chores, etc, I don't need to worry about the consequences of the cigarette. My paint wont catch on fire. The ember/cherry won't ruin my car's carpet or burn the paper. My house won't stink as I clean it.

If they think you've replaced an addiction with another addiction, just agree with it. With the right set up, you don't need to light up a cigarette every 10 minutes. One thing I've realized is that when I smoke, half of the cig is pretty much wasted because of down time. Also, sometimes I stop smoking that cig when there is still a good 3 drags or so left. With an ecig, almost no juice is wasted since I can put it down whenever I want, and the thing won't keep burning. It makes nicotine intake much more convenient!

If they still insist that ecigs are bad/whatever, ask them why does it matter to them?

 

[AttyPops]

The "weakness" argument is...invalid. Particularly for those that were addicted at an early age and/or for a long time. It's physiological. Actual modifications of neurons and brain chemistry. It's not just an attitude.

Sure, a "strong will" can go a long way in overcoming the obstacle of addiction. However, the basic premise that "addition is weakness" is flawed, common, but flawed. There are even genetic factors.

Nonetheless, addiction is perhaps an indication of bad historical choices combined with environmental factors. Big whoop. Find me a person that never made a bad choice in their life and I'll show you someone that never lived.

Addiction isn't a weakness...it's a reality...and must be addressed the best way you can. Whether it's sugar, caffeine, nicotine, alcohol, etc. many if not most people have some degree of chemical dependance. You're just open about it and admitting it. That's a fantastic 1st step.

Nicotine is a legal substance. How you wish to deal with that dependance, and how that dependance affects your life, is a personal decision. What's most important is that you find a way to achieve your goal that works for you. And not everyone that uses e-cigs has the same goal in mind.

 

[Mohamed]

Sorry for drug references. I thought in historical sense to the topic that it was valid to bring them up but also understand I agreed to rules and also understand reasoning behind the limit to those discussions on this forum.

So aside from health benefits I really am in the catch 22 of an addiction is an addiction and that is what it will remain unless I get down to 0 nicotine. I guess one could also argue that the continued vaping of zero nicotine juice is still just pacifying the oral and hand fixation addiction. Instead of being a physical dependency of nicotine it is more of a psychological dependency.

So I guess it boils down to one's own/societies accepted physical/psychological dependencies as Spazmelda stated with caffeine.

Now you got me into philosophical debate with myself with the [do your research here (censorship applied to self )] trade and the dependency on the Chinese in the 1800's was social acceptable. Some may see this as a non comparison issue as [other stuff] compared to nicotine vapor has none of the associated society down falls. But for past 100 years tobacco has had a big impact on society.

When comparing caffeine and nicotine the health may be miniscule but the fact that remains is that addictive substances have generally caused negative results in society. Maybe that is the reason that addiction is most looked down upon...not the fact that it is an addiction but that in general addictions by the masses have caused society mass problems. Just thinking out loud on that one.

 

[RosaJ]

Are you aware that in April of this year the FDA approved the patches, gum, etc., for indefinite use? So the progression theory is no longer valid unless you want to wean yourself off of them.

Nothing and no one is holding you back from going down to 0 nicotine (whether it's patches, gum, or ecigs for that matter). It's up to you if that's what you want to do. I have not been encouraged one way or another by anyone, especially in the vaping community. I smoked for more than 40 years, a pack and a half a day, and quit smoking a year and half ago completely by using ecigs. I went down from 24mg of nicotine to now 6mg to 0mg. I continue to vape because I enjoy it and consider myself free to do so.

You are in control of your body and your decisions about what you do with it. Nicotine is not an illegal substance just as caffeine is not an illegal substance.

 

[Rickajho]

Mohamed, I'm reading several issues here, all going off in different tangents, and it's up to you to sort them out.

First, you are an adult. I don't know what this family dynamic is you have going on. As an adult you get to pick and choose what you are going to do here. But if this is going to come down to some communal family group decision making process you are only going to drive yourself nuts. Families can do that.

Smoking is bad. That gets a duh. Smoking in itself is a hell of a lot more addictive than vaping. You have no choices with cigarettes. For that matter there is evidence that cigarette manufacturers were trying to manipulate how tobacco was processed to make it even more addictive. Vaping already takes out a boat load of other chemicals that are going on with smoking that are actually bad for you. What's left over is nicotine, which so far is known to be far less unhealthy to your system than you appear to think. Now you have the option to manipulate the nicotine down to to any level you want. Go for zero nic if you feel you must.

What is the problem? What little research that is out there so far shows that nicotine delivery from these devices is pretty darned consistent. In research studies on vapor, drawing harder on an e-cig does not release more nicotine - but drawing harder on a cigarette does. You aren't going to be turning into some strung out junkie, craving more and more nicotine as you go.

At this point, as someone who is still smoking, both you and everyone around you are way over thinking this process. You haven't even fully let go of smoking and you are already worrying about what comes after what you haven't even completed. One step at a time. This isn't the first time the question of "vaping as moral character flaw" has come up here - believe me. Pick your character flaws - we all have them. But if you think anyone here is going to chime and say they think vaping is practically as bad as smoking on a medical, moral or addictive basis - I don't see that happening.

 

[Mohamed]

But if you think anyone here is going to chime and say they think vaping is practically as bad as smoking on a medical, moral or addictive basis - I don't see that happening.

I wasn't really trying to convince anyone to not continue doing what they are doing or for that matter to even place judgment on them as doing something morally wrong. As I said this is working for me and I plan on continuing down this road.

And your right I'm old enough to make my own decisions. I guess coming from the background and family that I come from "addiction" is not seen as a good thing regardless of it is harmless or not. The caffeine argument has some validity and can probably use that in a logical argument of the "addiction" is bad regardless of if it causes any negative health affects or not.

I wasn't trying to stir anything up here. I was just trying to get valid arguments against those who I feel do a pose a somewhat valid argument of "addiction" is bad regardless...but I'm starting to understand that addiction can come in many forms not just physical dependencies and they aren't necessarily bad in themselves. I have hard time saying that but I do believe that about 80% within me.