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Feeling Strange and Major Panic Attacks

Discussion in 'Health, Safety and Vaping' started by jbbishop, Mar 29, 2009.

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  1. jbbishop

    jbbishop Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 16, 2009
    SLC, UT U.S.A.
    This product is amazing in that I was able to immediately quit using cigarettes.

    No problems of any kind for most of the first two days. On the second day, in the late afternoon, I mixed in maybe 20% glycerine from the local brew shop to cut the strong TW (36mg) and into the evening (and moreso late that night) I started having problems with feeling panicky. A little rum didn't help much and I don't have any valium right now. So I crashed out for about 6 hours. When I got up and tried to use the e-cig this morning I promtly had a HUGE MAJOR PANIC ATTACK which I just don't normally get anymore. I majorly restricted my vaping but the panicky state continued throughout the day and into the afternoon when another attack began to loom...

    So, I stopped using the e-cig at all about 5 hours ago (meaning I've had to start smoking again) and gradually the panic state has mostly dissipated over this time.

    I know that most of you are going to say IT'S TOO MUCH NICOTINE. That may be partly true, but I'm convinced that's not the only issue.

    We think I have Fibromyalgia. Naturally, I thought I would be one of the lucky ones who'd have a problem with the PG because of this if not skin allergies on top of that.

    The first thing I did is to Google lactic acid and panic disorder and here's some basic findings:

    Studies have shown that high accumulations of lactic acid in the body can increase anxiety and cause panic attacks.

    Another study seems to confirm a metabolic hypothesis: excess lactic acid is caused by an underlying defect in an individual's metabolism, suggesting that people with panic disorder have an abnormality in how they produce or clear lactic acid in the brain.

    This may give me some new insight into my health problem, but it is confounding.

    The PG would seem to be a likely candidate. It could be reasoned that it was all just building up in my system for a couple of days. Nevertheless, there also appeared to be a direct correlation with the use of the (now contaminated) liquid which had the added glycerine. I've used glycerine without any problems in making wine, wine coolers and liqueurs for example, but I've never breathed it into my lungs before.

    While looking into this I discovered that blood serum levels of glycerol are positively correllated with cardiac arrythmia so a head's up on that.

    Since I need to order some fresh supplies and won't have any medication to treat panic attacks until April 10th I believe this is going to take me a couple of weeks to sort it all out. I'll try to keep y'all posted.
     
  2. LuckySevens4U

    LuckySevens4U Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 8, 2009
    USA
    Dude, hint #1 UNO, stop vapin the 36 that's 90% of your battle there. That's just TOO high. You really need less high mgs then you think you do. I smoked a pack a day and I don't TOUCH anything over 11 mgs straight and most the time I cut that. Back wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy down dude that should help.
     
  3. Duckies

    Duckies Super Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 20, 2009
    Philly
    1. Stop vaping immediately and see your Doc.

    2. I had been smoking full menthol 2pk (40 analogue) per day for over 20 years and 18mg gives me the shakes.

    3. Stop vaping immediately and see your Doc.

    4. This may be a VP vs PG issue (allergies triggered/inflamed by Fibro)

    5. Stop vaping immediately and see your Doc.

    Did I mention 'stop vaping immediately and see your Doc'?
     
  4. Duckies

    Duckies Super Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 20, 2009
    Philly
    Indeed. This is a prime example as to why the FDA is going to sh*t can this whole process. 36mg should only be used if your s/n starts with Nico. :p

    Other than that, cut (dilute) it.
     
  5. Variety202

    Variety202 Full Member

    Mar 27, 2009
    Kaneohe ,Hawaii
    hello! I am new here and am waiting for my fisrt e cigarette to arrive in the mail.
    I have some questions though.
    I suffer from a anxiety disorder and have some sensitivities to caffine and nicotine. I am a smoker (i should quit due to my disorder because it can aggrivate it sometimes) an I love nicotine. I'm not a full blown chain smoker though i smoke about a half a pack a day maybe a pack. My brand is camel turkish silvers. I was wondering if anyone knows how much nic is in a camel. I was also wondering how many drops of e juice should i start off with. I ordered the low apple from TW. Maybe 1 or 2 drops to start out with? Will 1 or 2 drops be enough to moisten a empty cartridge and not burn out the atomizer?
    I am looking forward to having a good experience with the e cigarette but at the same time a little nervous. I don't want to over do it and get sick.
    Also if i decided to dilute my drops how should i go about it in a safe manner.
    Any responses will be greatly appreciated.
     
  6. LuckySevens4U

    LuckySevens4U Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 8, 2009
    USA
    Hi, most ciggys are known to have about 1 mg of nic per ciggy

    What most are saying here is that for example, you were a pack a day smoker 20 ciggys and you use the 11 medium liquid. 40 drops a day of 11 would be equivalent to a pack a day ciggys.

    So if you smoked half a pack and you bought the LOW, 6 mg's something like 20 drops a day would be LESS than you were smoking of 10 cigs a day. I can't figure it all out completely it gets confusing, but you are being ultra conservative. You will be able to vape a lot more of the 6 to equal 1/2 a pack of ciggys a day.

    I vape LESS than 40 drops a day of 11 because I cut that in half most the time, so I KNOW I have reduced my nic intake, HOWEVER, vaping seems to give you a higher nic feel than cigs because it doesn't have all the chemicals in it to counter off set the nic. Some of those chemicals would make you tired so you wouldn't get as jacked smoking 1 ciggy as you do with the vaping.

    I personally feel some people just vape WAY too high and don't need to on the mgs.
     
  7. jamie

    jamie Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Jun 3, 2008
    USA
    No, not 1 or 2 drops for a blank cartridge. You should completely fill whatever size carts you are getting. You don't get more nicotine per puff just because you filled the cart.

    Watch the newbie videos on how to fill and top carts in the New Member section.
     
  8. DisMan

    DisMan Super Member ECF Veteran

    Sep 2, 2008
    Switch to VG. Buy some juice from johnsoncreeksmokejuice.com. When you add to cart, change to the non-PG version of the juice.

    However, if you go the non-PG route, you must not be allergic to nuts. So, if you have a nut allergy...I would say you're kinda screwed. :(

    This may be a way around your issue and allow you to vape.
     
  9. tpboles

    tpboles Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Nov 5, 2008
    AL, USA
    I used to have panic attacks really bad (think your about to die, hospital trips, ect). I have smoked everything from 36mg down to zero. I agree 36mg could make your heart rate go up and could possibly trigger a panic attack.

    From my experience it's mostly in your head (ofcourse). If you think - "I wonder if this is bad for me" your panic attack will answer "this .... is killing you". It's just the nature of panic attacks. My advise would be cut back on the nic (maybe 18mg or 11mg), and try not to think about it. I know with panic disorders that is easier said than done, but besides medication it is the only thing that will probably work. Also, try gradually cutting back on the analogs and not all at once. I think that would also be helpful. Some people that suffer from panic attacks could also suffer from adjustment disorders which could also trigger a panic attack.

    I can tell you outside of turning the bottle up and drinking this stuff it is not gonna do anything severe to you. And a whole lot less than the analog are doing.
     
  10. Faethe

    Faethe Super Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 12, 2009
    Orlando, Florida
    I want to join the chorus of '36mg is too high'.

    I like it occasionally, but hell if I'd nurse that stuff continuously. Some can do it and do enjoy it. Not me. It's all in who you are. There are people on this board that have complained of symptoms with 16 - 18mg juice.

    That's why this stuff comes in so many different strengths. Everyone is different.
     
  11. Faethe

    Faethe Super Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 12, 2009
    Orlando, Florida
    You WILL feel it if it's too high. No other way to explain it. Think of it this way: have you ever smoked an unfiltered cigarette or inhaled cigar smoke into your lungs? You know like right now whether you are comfortable with it. No two ways about it.

    Low is good. This way you can also cut it with some store bought PG or VG if it's not. Or you know what to buy next time, for sure.
     
  12. jbbishop

    jbbishop Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 16, 2009
    SLC, UT U.S.A.
    Been vaping with straight glycerin for a couple of hours and I don't notice any problems yet.

    So, my plan was to order the 18mg VG from Johnson Creek this week.

    After I get some medication I think I'll try diluting the TW by 50% and testing with that.
     
  13. Variety202

    Variety202 Full Member

    Mar 27, 2009
    Kaneohe ,Hawaii

    thanks for your response :)
     
  14. Variety202

    Variety202 Full Member

    Mar 27, 2009
    Kaneohe ,Hawaii

    Have you been feeling any better?
     
  15. jbbishop

    jbbishop Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 16, 2009
    SLC, UT U.S.A.
    This is where I am at: I received the JC 18mg. Non-PG "Tennessee Flue Cured" today and I've been using it, sometimes heavily, for several hours.

    This is not going to cause me any of the symptoms I've described before of feeling "strange" (dizziness/spaceyness/foggy headed -- like my mind is far away and I can't focus) or the very alarming panic attacks that followed and seemed to be strongly correlated with these strange feelings.

    This is also discussed here: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/health-safety-e-smoking/10897-dizziness-spaceyness-foggy-headedness-2.html

    At one point I might have gotten a little too much nicotine and this resolved within 5 minutes -- unlike my previous experience which lingered for 4-5 hours and more once it got built up in my system even when using a diluted solution, so it's not the nicotine causing these problems.

    Now the sad part: This stuff is not nearly as satisfying as the 36mg. TW Marlboro I had (and I don't believe this is because of the nicotine content - because I can just vape more), plus I really don't like that it tastes like pipe tobacco for a regular smoke (glad the rest of you like it). I mean, it's more flavorful, but there isn't the same kind of throat or lung hit that the TW gave (and which is why I bought it in the first place) and which made it seem very satisfying aside from the problems I personally had with it. I'm sure it isn't going to be nearly as easy to entirely replace my cigarette habit with this stuff because it doesn't seem to quell the cravings nearly as well as the other.

    I don't really know whether the vapor from PG could be inherently more satisfying than that of VG. It is one consideration. I don't know whether the problems the TW gave me were because of the PG or if it was due to one of the 10 other unpronounceable ingredients it has that the JC does not. But I suspect that it is due to some of these other ingredients that the TW gives the better hit and is more satisfying aside from the problems I had using it.

    So I'm glad I found an alternative that I can tolerate :) but I'm sad that it's not going to work as well for me :(

    Now I need to know if the PG is causing any of these problems or if these are because of something else in the TW formulation.

    Here's the ingredient lists:

    JC :
    Food Grade Vegetable Glycerin
    natural and artificial flavors
    tobacco essential oil (virginia)
    tobacco absolute (Burley)
    citric acid, lemon <1%
    vinegar <1%
    distilled water
    (nicotine)

    TW:
    1. tobacco essence oil <5%
    2. tobacco lead oil <5% (leaf?)
    3. nicotine (from tobacco leaf)<3%
    4. 2,3,5, trimethylpyrazine<1%
    5. 2,3,5,6, tetramethylpyrazine <1%
    6. 2,3 dimethylpyrazine <1%
    7. 2-acetypyrazine <1%
    8. 2-methyl butyic acid <1%
    9. terp ineol <1%
    10 ethyl maltol <1%
    11. guaiacol <1%
    12. acetyl pyridine <2%
    13. octalactone(gamma)<1%
    14. pure water<10%
    15. propylene glycol >65%
    16. glycerol <20%

    It may be that other Chinese suppliers have similar ingredients. What's David Yang's ingredient list over at Eastmall? I believe it is claimed that he gets his from a source that supplies 90% of the industry and someone speculated that therefore his might be from the same source that TW gets theirs from...
     
  16. strayling

    strayling Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 25, 2009
    Seattle, USA
    The thing about high strength liquid is that even that won't provide all the physical cues you get from smoking an analog, so you have to relearn what your body is telling you. You'll get a nicotine buzz, sure, but your body won't protest and say "enough" by making you immediately feel queasy and "smoked out". It's hard to describe, but take it easy on the high strength and you'll soon know to recognise how you feel when you've vaped enough.

    "strayling"
     
  17. Monkeylurv

    Monkeylurv Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 24, 2009
    Long Island, NY
    JB:

    I have a feeling it is the PG. If you read here, I had an encounter with mild lactic acidosis a couple years ago from a medication I was taking:

    http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/health-safety-e-smoking/11374-how-confident-we-these-actually-safe-2.html

    It can make you feel like you are having a panic attack - it increases respiration, and you'll feel like you are breathing fast/mildly hyperventilating. I believe that this experience I had with PG the past few days was an even milder version. I took some baking soda & water today and felt mucho better. I will be trying VG before I call the whole thing quits.

    Some people are just more prone to LA or buildup of Lactic Acid. People with lower kidney/liver function, and even people who may have a genetic predisposition to removing lactic acid may encounter a problem with PG. Even people who drink too much alcohol are at risk (kidney/liver function).

    I didn't realize the lactic acid would be such an issue. I was just kidding myself & hoping it would be the equivalent of exercising.

    Stick with the JC & stay away from the PG.

    ETA: My first occurance of lactic acidosis I actually had very severe palpitations. They lasted about 48 hrs. It was a little worse than "mild" actually. So I can see it can very easily be mistaken for nicotine overdose.
     
  18. jbbishop

    jbbishop Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 16, 2009
    SLC, UT U.S.A.
    The PG theory is one I'm favoring because it would tend to explain why alcohol did not mitigate my panic-related symptoms (much) but maybe sorta kinda made it worse which is usually not the case. Apparently alcohol can contribute to a build-up of lactic acid as well. Usually if I don't have any proper medication (benzodiazapenes) I can consume a healthy portion of alcohol and get my panic attacks to back off. I don't usually like to do this because I'm the kind of guy who gets by with one or two beers. Sometimes this doesn't work and I have to resort to other undesirable medications combined with alcohol like amtriptyline or seroquel as a last resort to force myself to pass out. Gee. Maybe 10 cents worth of valium would be a nice thing for them to have on the back of an ambulance to prevent a $3000 ride to the hospital emergency room strapped to a gurney! I had one experience where even these measures didn't work. Just try to go anywhere smelling like alcohol and ask for a valium. I'll get another 3 month supply from my doctor when I visit on the 10th because some days I can't even have my single cup of coffee.
     
  19. Monkeylurv

    Monkeylurv Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 24, 2009
    Long Island, NY
    JB: Not to wave a magic wand & associate your problems with mine. But have your doctor check your cortisol levels.

    When I have low cortisol, I have pain - joint & muscle. Cortisol is your stress & anti-inflammatory hormone. Caffeine - forget it. That'll throw you into a "panic attack" if you have low cortisol. I use to have what I thought were panic attacks, but it was actually hypoglycemia caused by low cortisol.

    Getting off caffeine actually enabled me to be able to get off steroids due to adrenal insufficiency. Caffeine is just tough on your adrenals for many reasons. If anything is wrong with your adrenals which can relate to kidney function, that can lower your ability to clear lactic acid from your system.

    It's a stretch - or you could just have adrenal fatigue/exhaustion. And if your fasting cortisol comes back below 10, be a little concerned. Nevermind what the lab range says. Get the cortisol checked at 8:00 am preferably. No later than 9am.
     
  20. Faethe

    Faethe Super Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 12, 2009
    Orlando, Florida
    I got some 36mg and put it in my 510.

    Brilliant.

    Never doing that again. You could have popped my head with a pin. :shock:
     
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