Fight The Good Fight!

[Von Vape]

Being BRAND NEW to this board, I may be sticking my neck WAY out there BUT.......
I have had some experience on other boards and it was fairly clear that there are two things that are "cardinal sins" when replying to a thread; #1 Don't "hijack" the thread & #2 Don't drift O.T. (off topic).

Unfortunately, I may be at least partially guilty of both myself in "Time to say goodbye..." I got off on a rant about "The P.C. Crowd" which at least partially (at least from my P.O.V.) started the ball rolling down the same road "Mattiem" started THAT thread for to begin with, the bickering of whether or not vaping is "safe" and what is and isn't "politically correct". For that, I sincerely apologize (to Mattiem)!!!

That being said, I started this thread first to apologize (and get Mattiem's back O.T. [Definitely don't want you to go!!!].) and second, to try and figure out how to "Fight The Good Fight!".

Before starting this thread, I read the article "Six ways to get your point across." that Robino1 suggested and it is indeed a pretty good read. I would recommend it to anyone interested in posting in this thread (or to any thread for that matter, where different points of view are anticipated and encouraged. [This is one of those threads BTW. ] )

To the point. I, along with many of you am sick and tired of vaping being demonized and have to admit, before reading the aforementioned article (not that I've metamorphosis-ized instantly HA, HA!!!) I "was" the "PUSH HARDER GUY". I can't say I'm an all out ... about vaping when and where I want but at the same time I also don't cotton to every post it note tacked to "NO SMOKING" signs that read, "That includes E-Cigs!!!" and even as a cigarette smoker, I considered myself "respectful" of other's "space". Although, now that I've been off of them for awhile, I realize I may not have been being as respectful as I thought I was . I guess that's kind of my point. All of the propaganda in regard to vaping/e-cigs has tied it/them to "real tobacco" when they are NOT AT ALL the same thing.

Someone commented in "Time to say......" "It's not the same but it is in the same spirit." and that's where I think the problem begins (MHO). The perception that they are the same thing. OF COURSE THEY ARE (in spirit)! Former tobacco smokers trying to quit AND SAVE THEIR OWN LIVES are far more "addicted" to the "HABIT" of "going through the motions of smoking" than they are the nicotine or any other part of "smoking"!!! That has absolutely NOTHING to do with the fact that vaping does not have a "smell" (at least not an unpleasant one), that the "juice" is made up of exactly the same ingredients as asthma inhalers, sans the medication, but plus the nicotine & flavorings. Who here would walk up to a 12 year old, "vaping" an asthma inhaler and say, "I'm sorry! NO VAPING ALLOWED!" The long term effects of PG & VG ARE known. Ask any asthma sufferer or DR. treating them. It's beginning to come out that nicotine isn't nearly addictive as we have been lead to believe (See this post: Truth About Vaping and Why They Hate Us) and as for the flavorings, while there isn't much info on the long term effects of INHALING them, they are food grade, digestible products and there is a reasonably clear understanding of what is and isn't inhalable if purchased from a reputable producer or supplier. So, in my opinion, the "health issues & effects, including second hand" and the "consideration of others" arguments are BOTH irrelevant. That leaves us with "The Perception".

Several years ago, I got on an airplane with a "No. 7" e-cig, got seated, buckled in and waited to get pushed back to taxi for take off. "No. 7's" were a very convincing "cig-a-like" with a red glow at the tip and I say that to "set the stage". The plane, as is the case most of the time now-a-days, was nearly at capacity when on strolled the last few passengers. One of which was a single mother (I have no way of knowing if that was her actual marital status) with two toddlers in tow seated themselves a couple of rows back and across from me (I had a window seat). As is also usually the case, the fussing and crying began almost immediately. Being a heavy smoker and only using the e-cig to get me through the 7 hr. flight (LAX to ANC) I said to myself, "Here we go! It's gonna be "one of those flights"! Better have a hit or two RIGHT NOW!" I did and then I had a couple more as the kids continued to wail. Shortly after take off, above the kids fussing, I heard the "bing" of the call button a few rows back and across from me. It was "crying kids, single mom". Out of the corner of my eye, I saw the "flight attendant" ( I used to know them as "Stewardesses") bend over her and then head my way. As soon as she was standing next to my row, she said, "Excuse me SIR! THERE'S NO SMOKING ON BOARD THE AIRCRAFT!" I pulled my e-cig from my chest pocket and said, "I'm not "SMOKING" this is an e-cig!" lifted it to my lips, took a big hit, the tip glowed and I blew out what little vapor a No. 7 produced, then stuffed the still glowing "cherry" against my cheek and said, "See? NOT A CIGARETTE! NO FIRE, NO SMOKE, JUST ODORLESS VAPOR!" Somewhat shocked, she said, "Well "she" doesn't know that and you'll have to put it out!" I told her there was nothing to "put out" and realized right then and there that it was a PERCEPTION issue!!! I made that point and argued that if she could stop all the crying and screaming and the other people from coughing and sneezing, I'd be happy to stop sucking on my e-cig. (WOW! I just realized this WAS a while back! I don't think the word "Vaping" had even been conceived yet!) That's when I was told, "If you DON'T stop using it and put it away, I'll have the air marshal arrest you and you'll be removed from the plane in Seattle!" (It WAS post 9/11 and I guess I "may have" been a bit more of an ... about vaping when & where I want than I originally stated. HA, HA!!!) Needless to say, the No. 7 got tucked away (at least to the best of "their" knowledge) for the remainder of the flight. And there again, this makes my point. Since they didn't SEE or SMELL anything, they had NO IDEA I was vaping every chance I got!

The point is, the "flight attendant" was standing right over me, KNEW without a doubt that there was no fire or heat involved (Yes, I know, some will argue that the coil HAD TO heat in order to produce vapor) NO "SMOKE" & NO ODOR, just ONE passenger's PERCEPTION that I was "smoking".

I know this is A LOT of rambling. My question is how do we "Fight The Good Fight!" and turn this thing around? My wife and I quit tobacco for financial reasons but the health benefits are a MASSIVE bonus as well! The government, both state and federal, have continued to increase the taxes on tobacco (& alcohol) (fondly referred to by them as "Sin Taxes") to "encourage you to quit" something they CAN'T outlaw (prohibition DOES NOT WORK). Now that (those) revenue stream(s) are drying up, guess what's next?! Maybe this thread is just one long, rambling rant. One thing I know for sure is that "WE" will NOT be able to turn the PERCEPTION around by being push overs, door mats or through "in fighting", which is what I started seeing in the other thread. We HAVE TO ban together and "Fight The Good Fight"!!!

Any & ALL comments and/or suggestions are encouraged & welcomed!

FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT!!!
Von Vape

 

[Robino1]

I'm very glad you read that article I posted

As for the rest....I wish I knew what the answer is. The first that has to change is the way the old mindset is of being ashamed of enjoying nicotine.

We have been made to feel like we need to hide or be pushed to where we couldn't be seen, as smokers. This feeling has been carried over into the vaping arena.


There are ways to be respectful.

 

[supertrunker]

i'm an ex-smoker and i used to rip out 40 Marlboro a day. Breaks in the afternoon were timed by how long it took me to smoke 3! (9 minutes).

i still work at the same place, only now i vape instead. i vape everywhere. i'm a walking air-freshener. i got asked all those questions. "Is that vape stuff safe Trunk - by which i mean, who cares about you, but is it safe for me to be around?"

Yup. Safer than sitting next to someone that smokes. Or by a photocopier. Or a newly laid carpet/wallpaper.

My own vaping journey has reached a point where i don't use nic either, but i do use VG and PG. Point out that PG is a fabulous germicide and even the office hypochondriac wants you to vape by his area!

And it smells nice.

T

 

[Rizzyking]

I vape out and about in open public spaces and have and always will be open to chatting with people who are curious or want to tell me how bad it is for me, so far in all my time doing that out of a couple of hundred people only one went away as anti as they were when they approached me. For me that's how you get the message out by not giving people the opportunity to complain about my lack of consideration by vaping within closed spaces or by not being prepared to engage with them if and when they choose to attack. Within the vaping community we have the two extremes of vaping everywhere you want and those who think we should hide away in corners and to both of those groups I'm doing it wrong so I guess the total answer to you is there is no perfect way to get the message out just do what you feel works and sod anyone else.

 

[supertrunker]

and sod anyone else.

+100. That's how it is. You have a choice: you can become a total anti-smoking ........, full of yourself because you quit, or you can do something else.
There is nothing much inconsiderate about vaping in enclosed spaces because it is no worse than exhaling. There is no second hand vape that is measurable. Someone that smokes, well they can be smelled 50 feet away!

If people wore spectacles that showed other people's breath like on a cold day, they'd be horrified!

T

 

[Von Vape]

Ahhhh, refreshing. At least some interaction and feed back.

After sleeping on this overnight (always a good idea if something has you "wound up") I've come to the conclusion that education of the ignorant is probably the single biggest thing any of us can do to help the cause, as most replying have mentioned. Most of what I babbled about in my original post was information I learned right here (THANK YOU ECF!) and I think it should be required reading for everybody in the whole country (not to mention anyone who wants to become a posting member here, just my two cents .) Do I know EVERYTHING in a single day of reading and watching you tube links, NO, of course not! Should everything be taken with a grain of salt? ABSOLUTELY! What we do know should be disseminated throughout the country, perhaps through way of a "chain e-mail", you tell everybody on your contact list, "THESE ARE THE VAPING FACTS!". Have them tell at least 3 of their contacts, etc., etc., etc. I've also taken note of the "CASAA" banner on some member's posts and will be looking into that. (OT; speaking of banners, why doesn't my "I Quit" calc. continue to "Calc."???) Sure, there will always be those who choose to deny THE FACTS, that vaping is NOT smoking. "There are none so blind as those who REFUSE to see." That pretty well sums it up in regard to "education". I could go on about THE FACTS & the NEED to disseminate them but I won't.

The other issue brought out in this thread is our approach to HOW we vape. I personally am somewhat confrontational about how and where I vape. (Whodathunkit???) My personal opinion is that it opens a window of opportunity for a reasonable discussion to discuss THE FACTS. Unfortunately, well, see above under "There are......" and they run off yelling "SECURITY! SECURITY!". At the other end of the spectrum are the folks who do allow themselves to be made to feel guilty, like they're sucking a "cancer stick". I don't know how to empower those people other than to say, "NO YOU'RE NOT!!!". To plagiarize "Blu's" slogan, "TAKE BACK YOUR FREEDOM!!!" (I know, kind of corny, but appropriate.)

On the extreme other end are the hard core "Cloud Chasers". (I'm probably striking a nerve here so please keep in mind this is only my opinion.) Tons of vape billowing around their heads, zero nicotine in their juice, blowing vape rings and "dragon breath" out their noses. All the stuff I used to do when I started smoking AT AGE 8!!! (not stated to shock you, rather to show my level of "maturity".) I feel, for them, vaping IS a fad, a "hobby" and just a way to "show off" and that probably is a detriment to the general vaping community. I know for a fact it's already effected legislation in our state. There is a bill circulating that will outlaw vaping in YOUR OWN PERSONAL VEHICLE while driving. Why? Because law enforcement has noticed an increase in "Duffus Hipsters" driving around in vehicles so filled with vapor, they can hardly see or be seen!!!

Grimwald wrote: "I honestly don't know which approach is best, but whatever we have been doing isn't working." in "Time for a break..." That probably sums it up best! Continued suggestions and comments are encouraged & welcome!!!

VAPE ON!
Von Vape

 

[Robino1]

(OT; speaking of banners, why doesn't my "I Quit" calc. continue to "Calc."???)

Something about the caching (spelling) and how fast the forum is to respond. If all the banners were refreshed constantly, it draws a lot from how fast the pages load. It does refresh but at a much slower rate. Maybe once a day? I'm 100% certain on that so don't go quoting me! LOL

As far as confrontational vaping...... Maybe too strong a word?

I prefer to be a respectful vaper. Vape almost wherever but not be obnoxious. I usually ask if it is allowed. If told no, I won't vape. I have to admit to vaping without asking. During those times, no one can really tell that I am vaping.

Outdoors is fair game to me. Depending on where I am. Clouds (not huge, I am a tootle puffer ) or small vapor. Depends on the situation. I guess that is what it should boil down to. Look at the situation you are in and go from there.

 

[SteveS45]

+100. That's how it is. You have a choice: you can become a total anti-smoking ........, full of yourself because you quit, or you can do something else.
There is nothing much inconsiderate about vaping in enclosed spaces because it is no worse than exhaling. There is no second hand vape that is measurable. Someone that smokes, well they can be smelled 50 feet away!

If people wore spectacles that showed other people's breath like on a cold day, they'd be horrified!

T

I must comment on the part where it says nothing much inconsiderate about vaping in enclosed spaces. I Vape and I enjoy it immensely compared to cigarette smoke but one day I walked in the vape shop and it had a cloud hanging in the air that was pretty disgusting from the flavors the guys who fogged the place out with were testing. OK so I was a bit put off by it but no one blew it in my face as I would not do to someone else. If someone is curious what I am vaping smells like I with blow it where they can sniff it but not directly in their face. Even when I am vaping in a NO Smoking area I am courteous and do not blow any vape where someone will walk through whatever cloud I dispense. That's just me!

 

[supertrunker]

What did you expect to find in a vape shop?

By nothing inconsiderate i mean no more than farting!

T

 

[SteveS45]

What did you expect to find in a vape shop?

By nothing inconsiderate i mean no more than farting!

T

When I walked in and could not see the rear Exit I must say that was a little off putting! And yes I can expect vape clouds but I am talking about ground fog in this instance! Even as a vaper smelling what I consider (IMHO) disgusting flavors wasn't pleasant. And flatulence is a natural bodily function some can't help. Remember this?

 

[YoursTruli]

That has absolutely NOTHING to do with the fact that vaping does not have a "smell" (at least not an unpleasant one), that the "juice" is made up of exactly the same ingredients as asthma inhalers, sans the medication, but plus the nicotine & flavorings. Who here would walk up to a 12 year old, "vaping" an asthma inhaler and say, "I'm sorry! NO VAPING ALLOWED!"

Personally, I do not find vapor from vaping to be odor free and have come across many flavors when vaped to produce a smell that is absolutely gag-worthy to me as well as ones I find that smell nice, although, even if the vapor smell is not bad it may not be something I would like to be unwillingly subjected to say if I was at a restaurant enjoying a meal... so "smell" really is an individual thing.

The "asthma inhaler argument card" as I call it, is one that just does not hold any ground as PG is not used in asthma inhalers, but, it is sometimes found in asthma nebulizer treatments. This argument holds even less ground now in the age of max VG eliquids given neither asthma inhalers or nebulizer treatments contain VG. And, just because PG may be present in some, not all, asthma nebulizer treatments does not make it benign nor is the application or dose remotely comparable between asthma medication nebulization and vaping.

I guess I see the whole vape anywhere or no vaping where smoking is disallowed as a constantly moving "line in the sand" when it comes to which side most vapers fall on. Most to me seem to take a more neutral approach versus the extremist one way or the other. I can see thoughts on both sides driven mainly by the current political atmosphere worldwide vaping as a whole is now finding itself in, cultural influences, values, personalities, personal bias...

 

[SteveS45]

As Yourstruli stated so eloquently I also do not find vapor clouds to be odorless and sometimes downright disgusting just like cigarettes smell to me now after my sense of smell has returned. I have had the unfortunate experience of one vapers home DIY liguid that smelled like Sulfur or Hydrigen Dioxide. Some may relate this to other gases.

 

[Robino1]

I would say, as vapers, we must be aware of how our vapor smells. But then you get the normal perfume argument.

Lord have mercy! When did we, as a whole, become such critical people? Do we really need a law to deal with things that are unpleasant to us?

If something bothers me, I move myself out of the situation/area. I don't need a law that tells people what to smell like or not smell like.

The smell of eggs in the morning makes me ill. I know not to visit a restaurant first thing in the morning.

Have we, as a human race, really lost common sense????

 

[SteveS45]

Robin there are already laws in place that restrict things that can or do annoy people. Just think about laws and ordinances banning working before/after certain hours of the day and which days. I could go on and list many more but hopefully you see my point.

 

[Robino1]

Please list me a few and tell me why they are in place.

Change my mind on why we shouldn't have a law for the way things smell.

With one caveat. You cannot use 'For the children's sake' in the argument.

 

[SteveS45]

As I was leaving the Hospital today again walking past that sign that says No Smoking within 15 feet I walked past someones house heading to the car and saw the home owner has NO Smoking signs on his 6 foot high fence. Is this enforceable on a public sidewalk? Maybe his property but..........

 

[SteveS45]

I already did list one for contractors or landscapers on the times they can start work.

 

[Robino1]

I already did list one for contractors or landscapers on the times they can start work.

Ah, but you never stated who you were referring to in the post.

Now, why is that law in place? Is that a federal law? Or local?

 

[SteveS45]

To find out what laws apply you need to check in your own jurisdiction as we in the IT Field always must adhere to Local/State/Federal rules and regulations. And there is also the aspect of which overrides which to take into account.

 

[Rickb119]

Have we, as a human race, really lost common sense????

Unfortunately, it has been "educated" out of the masses and replaced with "feelings". I "feel" offended, therefore I am offended, therefore you must stop doing what offends me.

Years ago, in the Soviet Union, they had what were called re-education camps in order to brainwash people to the "Party Line" of thinking. Today, in the US (and most other places), it's called the public education system (and the mass media).