Filtering like the pros, a Chemical Engineers perspective

[regal55]

Its painfully obvious that the issue with DIY nets is filtering. We have three issues:

1. One not enough passes
2. No head pressure (except French press)
3. Blow by (extract that gets past the filter along the edge.)

We can turn to the water filter industry to solve all these issues, first do a rough filter with a wire mesh coffee scree:

#1 A diaphragm Pump, here is an example: Aquatec 6800 Series RO Booster Pump for up to 50 GPD, 1/4"JG, 24 VAC - FreshWaterSystems.com

#2 A series of cartridge housings starting with 50, 10 micron, 5 micron, then possibly 3 micron sediment filters :
Pentek 10" Slim Line Water Filter Housing Blue/Clear No PR - FreshWaterSystems.com

Sediment Filter (10") - Spun Poly 3 Micron | MoreBeer

#3 Recirculation, once setup the filtering can be recirculated.


Much research needs don, need to insure polyspun sediment filters hold up to PG. I have the pump and its definitely up to the job.

This isn't response to anything wrong with the way people are currently filtering, but I think it may help with the terrible short thing of time clearomizer coils last. Really the only way to enjoy NETS economically now is with a dripper or if you are a fast KFL builder.


Thoughts?

 

[Bunnykiller]

Ive been looking into different filtering processes but unfortunately the "effective" ones arent cost effective for the volumes we create.

Ive found a work around by doing PGA extracting, but I still have over a liter of VG extracted stuff that is comparable to Hersheys syrup in viscosity and opacity... sure would like to clean it up to make it not so much a "wick wacker"

Ive even considered centrifuging but Im still trying to find someone local and willing to spin a sample for me...

 

[PaulBHC]

I use a genesis tank, AGA-T2, with a vertical coil and rayon wick. As the wick "filters" my DIY NET (at the coil), I pull up the wick to a cleaner section. Sooner or later I have to replace the wick and burn off the coil. Takes maybe 10 minutes.
I filter with a screen coffee filter, paper coffee filter, cotton in a syringe. Clear enough for me.

IF I only vaped extract, and a lot of it a day, I could see investing in better filtering. But I would also need others to state that there is a difference in clarity without loss of flavor before I would do it.

 

[regal55]

What I proposed could be put together for under a $100 if you shop around. It would build 90 psi across a 1 micron filter if needed.

 

[Kiwiboo]

I filter my DIY extracts as follows: unbleached coffee filter; french press mesh filter with another unbleached filter underneath and then overnight covered through yet another coffee filter. Works a charm and my coils dont get gunked up.

 

[Bunnykiller]

I filter my DIY extracts as follows: unbleached coffee filter; french press mesh filter with another unbleached filter underneath and then overnight covered through yet another coffee filter. Works a charm and my coils dont get gunked up.

what type of tobacco and fluid are you using to make your extracts with?

 

[Bunnykiller]

What I proposed could be put together for under a $100 if you shop around. It would build 90 psi across a 1 micron filter if needed.

but imagine all the juice needed to prime the system tho...

 

[Kiwiboo]

I am extracting tea, not tobacco. I have used both vodka and pg with this method.

 

[jcmccord235]

This method should work for any maceration. Regal, how do you think it would hold up to VG?

 

[PaulBHC]

This method should work for any maceration. Regal, how do you think it would hold up to VG?

How come your sig is missing?

I did a room temp extraction with some Organic American Spirit in PG as people said it was harder to filter VG. I still have some left and should try it with VG.

 

[jcmccord235]

How come your sig is missing?

I did a room temp extraction with some Organic American Spirit in PG as people said it was harder to filter VG. I still have some left and should try it with VG.

I unclicked the show your sig button. Wasn't trying to introduce myself with blatant advertising.

So, hi, I'm Josh, I'm a big fan of openly sharing developments in e-liquid manufacturing/ brewing. And I gave up on my own efforts extracting American Spirit Organic (also pure perique pipe tobacco) because of how fast the flavor started to taste bad.

I started buying a co2 extract from organic Bulgarian tobacco. But mixed straight it turned the liquid cloudy and nasty and it had the same problem. I tried mixing it with VG and filtering that, and that solved the problem. Thing is, that takes all the fun out of mixing tobacco flavors, only having one tobacco.

Anyway, I am looking forward to possibly getting back into them, particularly more unique varieties. Please let me know how it goes

 

[PaulBHC]

In what way does it "started to taste bad" ? Like spoiled? I have about 4-5 ounces of OAS extract and 2 or so of Louisiana Red and PS 80. I had hoped that the PG prevents spoilage.

I placed an order with you yesterday.

I think organic tobacco extracts in VG would fit right into your catalog. I'll start a VG soak tomorrow for you.

 

[jcmccord235]

In what way does it "started to taste bad" ? Like spoiled? I have about 4-5 ounces of OAS extract and 2 or so of Louisiana Red and PS 80. I had hoped that the PG prevents spoilage.

I placed an order with you yesterday.

I think organic tobacco extracts in VG would fit right into your catalog. I'll start a VG soak tomorrow for you.

No, it's not that it spoiled, I just mean the common issue of NETs gunking up the coil, and then the gunk/oiliness starts to burn as the juice vapes and it cruds up the flavor. Less of an issue in drippers, assuming you change your wick regularly, and more of an issue for the folks using non-rebuildables.

I filtered once using stainless, once through an unbleached coffee filter, then again using vacuum filtration through a filter that I don't remember the micron size on now. It wasn't bad, I just had issues with it performance as far as wick and wire are concerned.

My interest here is in setting up more active filtration for VG maceration, taking it another level up while keeping it cost and labor efficient. And yes, some new tobaccos would fit in very nicely. And I do have herloom peppers, Peruvian in origin, filtering now, using the above method. Besides vaping it, it's really great on salmon. I portion a bottle to set aside just for that.

 

[PaulBHC]

OK got it. I love the Louisiana Red in a AGA-T2 with rayon wick for about 2 of the 3 ml then it starts to get different. 3ml of pg extract to 20ml of 25pg/75vg @ 12mg. I was thinking it was like rich food that tastes great until you've had too much. Maybe it is backwash and coil/wick crud.

Kind of hard to be a retailer with a product that can fail half way through a tank. Disclaimers only go so far. People don't read them.

 

[Hendo123]

Filtering Net is more about removing undesirable tobacco particles, than it is about creating a coil safe NET solution.

The main corporate to coils “gunk” up is sugars in the extract, the more sugar, the faster it “gunks” up. This can be tested by doing the following:

Control Base: pure PG (100ml)

Solution #1: pure PG with 15g pure sugar

Solution #2: pure PG with 30g pure sugar

Solution #3: pure PG with 45g pure sugar

If you test the 4 solutions above, you will find that the more sugar the faster the coils gunk up. Mind you, the speed in which they gunk up between them, will not be dramatic.

This is also the case when mixing weaker NET solutions. The coils still gunk up at basically the same rate. The difference maybe as subtle as vaping 2mls for a strong solution, and vaping 4mls for weaker solutions, before you get the undesirable “burnt” taste.

Sugar is the main problem. Undesirable and desirable tobacco particles play a smaller role. You can test this by replacing the Pure PG with the finished NET solution. You will find the results are negligible.

Now looking at sugar as it relates to a liquid solution, from a practical real world perspective.

There is basically no practical and affordable way for a small home based lab or small business lab to separate glucose from a liquid solution, and maintain the desired finish product results.

A glucose molecule, within a liquid solution, is 10 Angstroms or about 0.001 micron

A water molecule is less than 3 Angstroms or about 0.0001 micron

These micron levels are beyond the scope of affordable and practical filtration.

Point being, if you repeatedly filtered a NET solution with an absolute 1 micron filter, the amount of sugar that you would remove would be negligible, at best.

Secondly.

Sugar itself is a “taste” or flavor on its own. Without sugar or sweetness, most if not all the flavors we vape would be undesirable, in general.

If your end product is a sweet or semi sweet solutions, then it would not make since to filter out all the sugars.

If you took a solution with water and sugar, and passed it through a filter process down to 0.001 micron, to remove the sugar. The end result would be water. Defeating the purpose. This would also remove most if not all of the desirable flavors as well.

In my opinion, if we want to enjoy NET juice, we have to get use to gunk up coils.

 

[PaulBHC]

Thanks for your post. I don't have as much a problem with coils as I do with wicks. Even with crust on the coil, I can still get vapor if the wick will supply liquid. This is where particles in NETs come into the picture.

 

[regal55]

what type of tobacco and fluid are you using to make your extracts with?

I do a heat assisted PG extract and filter with a large turkey syringe stuffed with rayon and 5 micron felt. As far as tobacco I am hooked on dark Cavendish;s, nothing tastes better in vape form that is obtainable IMHO. Works good. The pump idea is more for high volume , there will be some loss but it will filter vg &pg to 1 micron.

 

[regal55]

I found some 3 micron felt that I'm going to try to get my hands on.

 

[regal55]

If I knew the FDA wasn't going to outlaw our liquid nicotine believe me I would build one killer setup for nets. But for now a big SS turkey baster gets the job done.

 

[Kent C]

Kurt asked me to post our PM conversation regarding filters on the DIY forum and I didn't want to start a new thread just for it, so I found this one This came out of the discussion on Dr. F's study regarding diacetyl, so part of the discussion was also about using less flavoring.

Me:
Since you posted, I've been wondering about how to filter some flavorings. Habana Reserve is the darkest flavor I vape and I have reduced the percent from DV's (decadent vapours) normal formula but I've tried to filter out the particulates and so far no method - coffee filters, cotton swabs (I think you have recommended that in the past) and a few others - have worked really well. Are there commercial/professional filters available? What would you recommend.

Kurt:
Yeah, some particles really are that small. Whatman sells filter papers for chemistry labs, not too expensive. Not tried this myself, so I really don't know how small the particles wouldbe, but these will filter out down to 11 microns:

Whatman 1001-070 Quantitative Filter Paper Circles, 11 Micron, 10.5 s/100mL/sq inch Flow Rate, Grade 1, 70mm Diameter (Pack of 100): Science Lab Qualitative Filter Paper: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

You will need a funnel. Fold the paper into quarters then open as a cone, into the funnel, slowly pour the liquid in, let it drip through, pour more, drip more, etc. Will be a bit slow, unlike the cotton in syringe.

Dark may be larger molecules too, so unless you can see particles, the juice just might be very dark.

But, and I hate to bring THIS up, is this an NET juice? NETs have their own set of unsavory molecules, being tobacco.

Me:
Thanks for the filter info. That may work better. I know it takes time and patience to flow

Habana Reserve was Peter Cole's (Nick O'Teen here) Decadent Vapours attempt to make a mild tobacco taste without using tobacco absolute or any tobacco flavoring. He used (to the best of my memory and with the details that he gave out) mesquite, black pepper, oak wood (likely flavourart) and then some other herbs and spices.

Also as a follow up on the filter - would something like a Buchner funnel have an application for what I want?

BUCHNER FUNNEL, POLYPROPYLENE, 2-PIECE, 70 MM, Each: Science Lab Buchner Funnels: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

Looks like it would accept the 70mm filter just wondering how effective it would be without the suction pump, etc.

Kurt:
The Buchner would not be a good idea without suction. We use aspirators. Without suction the liquid will get under the filter paper. I think you are better off with simple gravity filtering, slow as it might be.

Me: (after some experience doing the above)
(I used the filters as Kurt advised, and while there was a little sentiment, the dilution of the flavoring was likely a factor as well for the better performance and reducing gunk on the coil and much better draw).

My formula for all my DIY is from DV - a total of 30 parts with 17 parts Aqueous Glycerin, 7 parts H.R. Flavoring, 6 parts AG based Nic. For 11mg nic final.

I've changed my ratio to 20 parts AG, 4 parts Flavoring and 6 parts AG nic and I'm not having the problems with Habana Reserve - decreased draw and gunk on the coil earlier than other flavors where I have to go to a vodka soak - now much better. The eliquid in the T3S is more translucent, even in the last .5ml where before at that point it was opaque. And a surprise, I like the flavor even better this way. It's different - more tasty and of course more vapor by making up the difference with AG Win/Win.

Thanks for your info and advice.

-----
(here - on reducing flavoring but getting 'better flavor' is something that most DIYers have experienced. I first noted this in coffee/espresso attempts where thinking more espresso would make a 'stronger coffee taste' where actually overdoing it can tend to wash out the flavor, so reducing flavor amounts 'enhances' flavor. I know most of you know this