Girl Scouts allow a boy wo identifies as a girl

[ScottinSoCal]

That may not be the same for all TG people, but in this instance there IS a difference.

I'm sure there is, but is that difference because she was born with male genitalia, or is it because she's had to be strong to get through the heaping piles of crap to become the person she is today? Or maybe just something in her personality? One of my coworkers is a woman (always been a woman) and she's one of the toughest, most brutal Program Managers I know. She joined the company after retiring from a career in the military. Was she always tough and brutal? Did she learn to be during her military career? Which came first, the chicken or the egg? I'll never know, and I don't think you can either.

 

[ScottinSoCal]

And for the record: if you want to see me rant some more, someone start calling bisexuals "those confused people who just don't have the courage to come out as gay". That pushes my buttons, too.

 

[tybin]

it's not about genitalia Scott. It's about how we are all socialized as we grow up. Or maybe it's about hormone balances That doesn't mean i agree with the music festival's policy or that ALL men are from mars and ALL women are from Venus. Now how about we really mix it up?: as a gay woman (who could lean to bisexual if it suited me) I had no clue how to relate with so many of my female classmates as a child. I wasn't feminine enough for them and just was never welcomed into the the inner ranks. Nor did I get why in heavens name they cared so much about looking pretty and wearing some designer outfit. I bet many gay men just didn't identify with the typical male interests their peers were interested in. I already knoow I have more androgen in my system than the average women. Maybe the issues are just more complex than what is coming out on paper here in the above heated argument.




I can see you're passionate about your stance. Here's a thought I'd like to hear more from those who are transgendered. Do you think having had to grow up with too much testosterone or too much estrogen in your system when you were already in the wrong body (coupled with the socialization expectations of your time) as affected your life in a way you wish it hadn't? ---does that make sense?


If society would recognize the right for a transgendered child to fully transition early in life, do you think you could have avoided a bunch of the above obstacles? My theory is it might.

 

[SuZamme]

So what I'm hearing is that because a person is born with male genitalia they have the right to go wherever they want...that is the "entitlement at birth" I was referring to.

The references to women who act like men (the military and Program Manager references) are presented not as an accomplishment but as an example of how women try to be more like men? Is this a compliment?

The repeated reference to "sissies", is this suppose to be funny, a nickname, or perpetuating a stereotype from last century including but not limited to "throws like a sissie, throws like a girl, don't cry like a sissie" etc? When I am called "sis" it is a shortened and endearing term meaning sister.

I believe this discussion is one about the differences between "sex" and "gender".
Home | Kand McQueen, Ph.D.

MWMF is still currently a women born women space. One of the reasons is because the focus is on women's health, spirituality, and the challenges and joys of being women in the world.

It is not the space for conflicts like the one we are having via this forum on the issue of being born with the sex of a man and the psyche (for lack of a better word at the moment) of a woman.

Part of the acculturation of women is to accommodate the wishes of men. This is one of the primary reasons why women experience such deep healing when we have the ability to remove ourselves from the presence of men for an extended period of time. Michigan gives us one week out the year to experience ourselves in the absence of men's socialization. MtF transgenders, regardless of the unique and very painful struggles that their lives involve, receive their initial socialization as men and do continue to carry some of the expectations that women have been socialized to accommodate.
Michigan is one of the few places where women can go to de-program our socialization.

 

[ScottinSoCal]

it's not about genitalia Scott.

On this point we completely agree - it's not about genitalia. What irritates me is that, for the poster who started all this, it is. "men identified as women have not had and do not intend to complete the physical changes and so still "have the parts". Understandably, festival would then not remain a male-free space."

The mighty penis trumps everything. Behavior, brain structure, body chemistry, identity, they all cower before The Power Of The Penis, whose mere cloaked presence transforms and destroys everything sacred in this holiest of holy women's space. It would be entertaining to believe a little scrap of skin actually had that level of control, but it's utter and complete crap, from start to finish. And let's not ignore the little sideways slap at women who are infertile: the vibrations that run thru our entire beings...the duality of male/female, the reproductive possibilities whether we choose to exercise them or not. Pity the poor soul who doesn't have a choice to exercise. She must secretly be a man, too.

And the sad part is, the whole idea is just a ghettoization of women. The same way gay men are supposed to be natural interior designers, fashion mavens, and absolute best friends to straight women, this whole mysterious essence of womanhood is just another way to make women something different, strange and inexplicable. But rather than reject it wholesale, there's an entire subculture built up around it. Women are mysterious creatures, who can't possibly be understood by men - or those who people like SuZamme have decided in their infinite wisdom are men.

I spent my whole childhood rebelling against what everyone else told me I had to be and couldn't be. So yes, I'm passionate about allowing people the freedom and space to be who they are, completely. And I don't think it's OK for me to stand by and give my tacit consent while some self-appointed Sex Police starts issuing edicts about everyone else.

 

[ScottinSoCal]

So what I'm hearing is that because a person is born with male genitalia they have the right to go wherever they want...

Yes, sure, that's absolutely what I'm saying.

Tell you what Suze - since you think it's perfectly fine for some random person to be the ultimate arbiter of True Sex, I'm reviewing your paternalistic Father Knows Best attitude and declaring you a man. No mysterious energies for you. No MWMF for you. No Indigo Girls for you. Because you're actually a man. So let it be written.

 

[SuZamme]

Yes, sure, that's absolutely what I'm saying.

Tell you what Suze - since you think it's perfectly fine for some random person to be the ultimate arbiter of True Sex, I'm reviewing your paternalistic Father Knows Best attitude and declaring you a man. No mysterious energies for you. No MWMF for you. No Indigo Girls for you. Because you're actually a man. So let it be written.

So be it and I would honor the request of women to have their own space, especially for the one week out of the year at Michigan.
In addition, I would consider co-creating a Festival where all are welcome. This would be better, IMHO, than trying to crash a festival created 35+ years ago specifically for and about women-born-women.

By the way, have you had time to check out this website?
Home | Kand McQueen, Ph.D.

 

[ScottinSoCal]

By the way, have you had time to check out this website?

I really try to restrict my information sources to those that don't come from self-professed bigots, but thanks for the thought.

 

[SuZamme]

Wow, ScottinSoCal,
That's a pretty narrow view of the world if you only consider information from sources you judged as from "non self-professed bigots".

bigot - a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from her/his own
chauvinist - a person with a prejudiced belief in the superiority of his or her own kind
antifeminist - someone who does not believe in the social or economic or political equality of men and women

In fact, the link came from a professional who counsels gay/straight/trans/bi/whatever and not from my - as you have judged me - self-professed bigoted realm.
The link is for the website of one of the best trans speakers on trans issues in the country. His perspective is more likely aligned with yours than my own.

Why do you choose to label me a bigot instead of answering the issues I raised?

Would any of us see it as appropriate to walk into a Jewish Synagogue and demand that they allow Catholic Mass to take place there?

 

[ScottinSoCal]

Why do you choose to label me a bigot

men identified as women

festival would then not remain a male-free space

male-ness agenda

no hierarchy that starts with male at the top

women who act like men (the military and Program Manager references) are presented not as an accomplishment but as an example of how women try to be more like men

There are so many convoluted layers to your bigotry, it really doesn't surprise me that you can't even see through it any more. You start off with denigrating trans women. Your "men identified as women" is about as offensive as you can get toward a trans woman, but I'm pretty sure you're already aware of that. If you mutter "trannie" under your breath as you type, I wouldn't be even a tiny bit surprised. Then you segue smoothly into denigrating any woman who doesn't fit your preconceived notions of who a woman is (and that number apparently includes my mother and at least two of my sisters, because they think you're nuts). A woman who serves in the military is just acting like a man. My coworker is just acting like a man. It's apparently impossible, in your judgmental and bigoted little world, for a woman to show any strength or drive or competitive impulses, because then she's just acting like a man. Finally you end up where my intuition tells me you spend most of your time, bashing men.

Why do I choose to label you a bigot? Because the shoe fits, and you've been up and down the catwalk all through the thread, showing it off.

 

[SuZamme]

Why do I choose to label you a bigot? Because the shoe fits, and you've been up and down the catwalk all through the thread, showing it off.

Oh my, my, my!
I'm glad I was able to provide you an outlet for all that anger. I hope the people around you are blessed by my service.

 

[Zapp and Roger]

Oh my, my, my!
I'm glad I was able to provide you an outlet for all that anger. I hope the people around you are blessed by my service.

Stop being so full of yourself and STOP hijacking my thread with your OT nonsense. Being belligerent is not winning you any points.

 

[SuZamme]

Stop being so full of yourself and STOP hijacking my thread with your OT nonsense. Being belligerent is not winning you any points.

I do apologize for my part in participating in the OT parts of your thread. When I realized this was going to all the places it ended up going, I should have just started a new thread.

 

[hotarudraconis]

Back in my day I had to choose 4H... Luckily I got into the girls group.

I was known to be gay since the 4th grade, and was GenderQueer since the day I stepped out of the womb.

Many may think I would have Male privilege since I have the tools, but I am a doctor, not a plumber. (sorry, been watching too much voyager.)

I rarely see it, because before they get to the male privelage, they see:
Poor
Disabled
Gay
Lack of advanced degree
Non-Pale skin
Gender Queer

-Sometimes I feel with my passions, it would have been easier if I was female. But then again... I would have been selling thin mints for pink slips... look up the secret ingredient some time. (see, brought it back)