Guy hospitalized - batteries explode, loose in pocket with coins - blames industry

[Nate5700]

Everyone knows why Battery OEM's have stated Publically that their batteries are Not Intended for e-Cigarette Use. Just like everyone knows that CYA doesn't stand for Colorado Youth Association.

I don't Blame OEM's one bit for saying that their batteries should Never be used in an e-Cigarette. If I was an OEM, I would do the same thing.

I don't think anyone's blaming the battery manufacturer except the guy bringing the much-discussed lawsuit. I imagine any claim against the battery manufacturer will be tossed right away.

What I think @ENAUD is saying is that one could make the argument that the mod manufacturer is to blame for designing their product around a cell that isn't meant for consumer use.

Whether it's user error or not, people should at least admit that these incidents look very bad for the industry. Change is going to come one way or the other and mod manufacturers need to lead the way, or government is going to get involved, rightly or wrongly. Not to mention that negative perception of the industry is going to undermine our efforts to keep from being regulated in other areas. Why would the FDA want to do anything to encourage vaping, like by allowing the sale of flavored liquids, when the products are spontaneously exploding?

Even if you think people deserve to be dismembered as the penalty for their lapses in judgement, you have to admit that stopping these incidents is in everyone's best interest.

 

[untar]

Hard to blame the mod manufacturer if the batteries aren't even in the mod. Some flashlights use the same battery format (industrial 18650 cells) so if those batteries can't be sold to the end consumer then those would have to go as well. Same with chargers, they're also designed around those cells.
Some RC and robotics hobbyists are using them to make their own battery packs for their devices by tack welding metal strips onto them, they buy the exact high powered cells we use but I'd call them on average more expert in electronics than the average vaper

Yes, the customer carried the batteries because of the mod design but you can't blame the manufacturer for the mishandling of batteries by the user. You wouldn't blame a gun manufacturer for a user dropping a bag of ammunition into a campfire either.

I assume the number of incidents of mods with exchangeable batteries causing harm while the batteries are installed to be very small (I'll admit I didn't see any numbers on that), I mostly read of mechs, internal LiPo while charging and loose batteries in the pocket.
Regulated mods with exchangeable batteries aren't what's in the news all the time and they're not giving vaping a bad image. If they were high risk they wouldn't be on the market in Germany, product regulation is crazy here (mech mods are in a grey zone atm and may have to go in the near future).

 

[zoiDman]

...

Whether it's user error or not, people should at least admit that these incidents look very bad for the industry. Change is going to come one way or the other and mod manufacturers need to lead the way, or government is going to get involved, rightly or wrongly. Not to mention that negative perception of the industry is going to undermine our efforts to keep from being regulated in other areas. Why would the FDA want to do anything to encourage vaping, like by allowing the sale of flavored liquids, when the products are spontaneously exploding?

...

Don't want to be the Big Black Fly in the Wedding Cake Frosting.

But when it comes to e-Cigarettes and the FDA, we are kinda Dead Men Walking. And many times I think People forget that things like the Deeming Rule Set and PMTA's have Not been Repealed.

Does anyone really think that 18650 Mods are going to somehow survive a PMTA process when an OEM actually has to submit one? Or when the Next FDA Commissionaire comes along because a New Person is in the White House?

So I guess that just leaves Grey/Black Market Mods. And does anyone actually think that Grey/Black Market Mod Makers are going to Voluntarily conform to some Un-Agreeable Battery Standard that doesn't include 18650 Cells?

Don't get me Wrong. I hate to see people get Hurt using an e-Cigarette.

But when you Remove the Mis-Use incidents like putting a Bare Battery in your Pocket, more people per capita get Hurt using a Cell Phone or a Laptop than using an e-Cigarette. And those markets Have Standards and Government Oversight.

 

[Nate5700]

Yes, the customer carried the batteries because of the mod design but you can't blame the manufacturer for the mishandling of batteries by the user. You wouldn't blame a gun manufacturer for a user dropping a bag of ammunition into a campfire either.

I think it goes back to the "common sense" vs. "common knowledge" argument. People haven't really gotten a sense of how dangerous Li-Ion cells can be yet (maybe incidents like this will start to change that). If they knew what they could do then they would start to exercise more common sense. Guns have been around long enough that people have a general knowledge not to drop ammo into a campfire. And guns are kind of a special case anyway, it's a product that's expected to be dangerous, gun safety courses are taught all the time. Is a vape mod something that should fall into that category? I'd argue that it shouldn't have to.

Regulated mods with exchangeable batteries aren't what's in the news all the time and they're not giving vaping a bad image.

If I thought people were educated enough to know the difference I might agree with you here. But I think people who don't vape just hear the term "e-cigarette" and lump them all together.

 

[untar]

I think it goes back to the "common sense" vs. "common knowledge" argument. People haven't really gotten a sense of how dangerous Li-Ion cells can be yet (maybe incidents like this will start to change that). If they knew what they could do then they would start to exercise more common sense.

Agreed, but I was arguing for the shops being the ones that provide the safety information and not manufacturers being forced to make idiot proof mods. You'll find I said pretty much exactly the same as you a few posts back

I think people who don't vape just hear the term "e-cigarette" and lump them all together.

Of course they do, starting with the people that report on those incidents. Still doesn't make a case for regulating mods with exchangeable batteries if it doesn't have any impact whatsoever on the number of accidents.
What would change that is the prohibition of sales of any industrial cell to the end consumer but that wouldn't only hit vapers. All kinds of people would start to dismantle packs containing those batteries and there'd be less safety overall.

 

[Myk]

This is going to very unpopular... Is the victim in this and other cases to blame for their lack of battery knowledge,? No.
Are all vape mods currently sold that take user replaceable cells a ready for prime time product,? No.

My toothbrush has a lithium cell, it is sealed and in accessable. My bike headlight has an 18650 lithium cell, it is a sealed and non user replaceable product design. These are ready for prime time consumer products.

The vape industry does not follow standard safety measures in product design, and somebody who becomes injured by the use of these loose cells, will eventually be successful in a lawsuit, I feel the vape industry needs a wake up call before they will begin designing and marketing safer consumer products. You cannot mfg products for mass consumption that only the " elite" special snowflakes on a forum have the know how to use safely. This industry is ripe for a liability punch in the nose by one of the growing numbers of people being injured by these poorly designed and negligently marketed products...Buh By now

And Li-ion flashlights? Cell phones which have battery packs you could short if you carried them loose in your pockets?

Fact is there are consumer products that the Li-ion batteries or battery packs can be replaced. They are not all designed like your disposable toothbrush. That is less about safety and more about planned obsolescence to keep people buying new products (I've seen how Phillips/Norelco has changed over the years).
Short of mechs the majority of ecigs are now following the standards of having protection circuits.

It wouldn't matter what product the consumer is carrying batteries or battery packs for or what battery chemistry they have. If they're carrying them in a way the contacts get shorted they are the ones not following the standards.

 

[Nate5700]

Agreed, but I was arguing for the shops being the ones that provide the safety information and not manufacturers being forced to make idiot proof mods. You'll find I said pretty much exactly the same as you a few posts back

Sorry if I missed that. Shops absolutely should be providing safety information, that's a start. And I'm not arguing to force the manufacturers to make idiot-proof mods, though I worry that that could happen. I just think it's better for everybody if they get ahead of the game and do it voluntarily.

Of course they do, starting with the people that report on those incidents. Still doesn't make a case for regulating mods with exchangeable batteries if it doesn't have any impact whatsoever on the number of accidents.
What would change that is the prohibition of sales of any industrial cell to the end consumer but that wouldn't only hit vapers. All kinds of people would start to dismantle packs containing those batteries and there'd be less safety overall.

It sounds to me like a safer cell design could benefit a few different industries then. It doesn't have to be specific to vaping. And if others were involved economies of scale would help keep costs to the consumer down.

But when it comes to e-Cigarettes and the FDA, we are kinda Dead Men Walking.

Maybe I'm just an optimist but if we're all so sure that the FDA is going to regulate this industry out of existence then this whole discussion is pretty moot.

 

[untar]

if we're all so sure that the FDA is going to regulate this industry out of existence then this whole discussion is pretty moot.

The FDA themselves estimate the deeming regs would put 97% of the industry out of business so it's not wrong to assume that's exactly what's going to happen if this fail train stays on track...

 

[untar]

It sounds to me like a safer cell design could benefit a few different industries then.

Safer cells are on the way, there's several prototypes. Currently the research is in how to make them commercially viable. Economically reasonable manufacturing processes have to be found/designed and maybe new plants built. It'll take years, maybe 5y if we're lucky.

 

[Nate5700]

The FDA themselves estimate the deeming regs would put 97% of the industry out of business so it's not wrong to assume that's exactly what's going to happen if this fail train stays on track...

Which is precisely why the mod manufacturers should be jumping at every opportunity to stop anything that reflects negatively on the industry. If they want to survive as a business that train needs to get derailed somewhere.

 

[CMD-Ky]

...
Maybe I'm just an optimist but if we're all so sure that the FDA is going to regulate this industry out of existence then this whole discussion is pretty moot.

Ultimately, it is moot, it is only a matter of time. People yap about the government wants the tax money. The driving force behind the movement to eliminate "E-cigs" are those who know what is best for us.

 

[Nate5700]

Safer cells are on the way, there's several prototypes. Currently the research is in how to make them commercially viable. Economically reasonable manufacturing processes have to be found/designed and maybe new plants built. It'll take years, maybe 5y if we're lucky.

Good. I'd absolutely support that type of work being done. Hopefully vaping is still a thing when it does happen.

 

[untar]

Which is precisely why the mod manufacturers should be jumping at every opportunity to stop anything that reflects negatively on the industry.

It's not product safety that will shut down the market, it's an application process that's derived from drug applications. It costs millions per product and there's no guarantee your product will be approved even if you check all the boxes. Who in their right mind would file such an application?

 

[zoiDman]

Ultimately, it is moot, it is only a matter of time. People yap about the government wants the tax money. The driving force behind the movement to eliminate "E-cigs" are those who know what is best for us.

I don't know of any Hard n' Fast numbers for the amount of Ex-Smokers there are who now Vape Exclusively in the USA. But it is Estimated to be between 3 and 5 Million. Which sounds about right.

Since the Average Smoker smokes a Pack a Day, that means that there are between 3 to 5 Million People who are No Longer paying $1.01 per day on Federal Tax for Cigarettes. Lets just say there are 4 Million of these people.

I don't have my Calculator Handy. But Multiply 1.01 x 4,000,000 x 365 and that is what the Federal Government is Loosing in a Fiscal Year by having 4 Million People Switch to e-Cigarettes.

 

[zoiDman]

It's not product safety that will shut down the market, it's an application process that's derived from drug applications. It costs millions per product and there's no guarantee your product will be approved even if you check all the boxes. Who in their right mind would file such an application?

BT and BV. Because there Is going to be an e-Cigarette Market going forward.

Spending 15 or 20 Million does sound like a Lot. Because it Is a Lot.

But when you consider How Much the e-Cigarette Market is Worth. It doesn't see like much at All if you could have a 15 to 20 Percent Share of it.

I wonder how much the Average Non-DIY Vaper spends on "juice" every day? A Dollar?

 

[CMD-Ky]

The nannies are running the show, money counts, to be sure. I am not going to argue with you. I see the country as being over run with people who want to tell me how to live, what to eat, what to drive, how to flush my toilet, what light bulb to use, the paint that I can use, what I must accept as behavior, and on and on. No matter what is done with the money the nannies will never stop. If the Taxes were Raised to coMpensate For the lost Revenue, the Push will Continue to control My Behavior.

I don't know of any Hard n' Fast numbers for the amount of Ex-Smokers there are who now Vape Exclusively in the USA. But it is Estimated to be between 3 and 5 Million. Which sounds about right.

Since the Average Smoker smokes a Pack a Day, that means that there are between 3 to 5 Million People who are No Longer paying $1.01 per day on Federal Tax for Cigarettes. Lets just say there are 4 Million of these people.

I don't have my Calculator Handy. But Multiply 1.01 x 4,000,000 x 365 and that is what the Federal Government is Loosing in a Fiscal Year by having 4 Million People Switch to e-Cigarettes.

 

[somdcomputerguy]

..for the shops being the ones that provide the safety information..

but they can't (or aren't supposed to) provide any kind of help to their customer anymore. Thanks FDA.

 

[zoiDman]

but they can't (or aren't supposed to) provide any kind of help to their customer anymore. Thanks FDA.

That isn't exactly true. A Vape Shop can explain How to Use or How to Operate or Safety Aspects of anything they sell.

What they Can't do is Help or Explain how to Modify anything they Sell.

The Classic Analogy is that they can Sell you a Coil-Head. And then Explain how to take you Tank apart, put it in, prime it, and then put your Tank back together.

But if you Ask them how to Re-Coil a Coil-Head, they are Not supposed to tell you.

 

[somdcomputerguy]

That isn't exactly true. A Vape Shop can explain How to Use or How to Operate or Safety Aspects of anything they sell.

I see. Thank you for clarifying that for me.

 

[DancingHeretik]

That isn't exactly true. A Vape Shop can explain How to Use or How to Operate or Safety Aspects of anything they sell.

What they Can't do is Help or Explain how to Modify anything they Sell.

The Classic Analogy is that they can Sell you a Coil-Head. And then Explain how to take you Tank apart, put it in, prime it, and then put your Tank back together.

But if you Ask them how to Re-Coil a Coil-Head, they are Not supposed to tell you.

I thought they could give you any kind of information. They just can't actually do it for you. Anything, as long as it's hands off.