Has anybody read this at Totally Wicked?

[supertrkre2812]

I was on totally Wicked's website and decided to read their lab report.

If i am not mistaken in my number crunching, according to their own test results, you are getting 18mg/ml of nicotine in their 36mg/ml juice.

Please correct me if i am wrong, but i believe that inorder to have 36mg/ml, you need a concentration of 3.6% nicotine.

Here is a copy & paste of their own test results.
It came from totallywicked - eliquid dot com / about-the-fluid / lab-reports dot html
Sorry, I can not post links yet.


Analysis of the Content of Totally Wicked ESmoking
Liquid supplied by Pill Box 38 (UK) Ltd

A sample of Totally Wicked ESmoking Liquid was supplied to Scientific Analysis Laboratories Limited, to determine the percentage level of nicotine it contained and other compounds present. The sample was analysed by Gas Chromatography – Mass Spectrometry.
The sample supplied was a 30ml bottle of 36mg Super High eliquid.

The Nicotine level was found to be : 1.8% (w/w).
The following pages of this report, give a more detailed breakdown of the analysis and details of other
compounds found.
Note: On the following pages the term “LOD” means Limit of Detection, this is the lowest amount of a sample that can be
detected using the technique GC/MS (Gas Chromatography Mass
Spectrometry).


If i am right, this is not good.

Opinions?

 

[Vapinginjapan]

Propylene glycol is 1.036 grams/ml.

If you assume that nicotine is 1 (It's 1.01) then 1.8% turns out to be approximatley 18.6MG/ML.

Pretty far off the mark, I would say.

 

[lawnman3]

I love it the truth comes out

 

[Scottes]

Weird that they'd publish that their 36mg juice is actually 18mg.

Weird that nobody's mentioned this before.

 

[Scottes]

Yeah, this has been discussed. It seems to be 36mg.
Totally wicked >>>>new lab report

I'm not done reading the thread yet though.

 

[Scottes]

Well, I'm finished, and it seems like the lab reported it as 1.8% w/w, which *could* mean that it's 29mg/ml according to one user, but a degreed chemist states that it's 18mg/gm, which is very, very close to 18mg/ml. The last post from Pillbox38 states that he plans on getting another report done, but that hasn't happened yet. As it's only been 3 months since that report came out I'd have to assume that another one will be coming.

 

[emus]

Yeah, this has been discussed. It seems to be 36mg.
Totally wicked >>>>new lab report

I'm not done reading the thread yet though.

Read reply #28 by Vapn:

"This is coming from a degreed chemist. 1.8% (w/w) is 18 mg/g.
The density of nicotine and propylene glycol are both so close to 1 g/mL, as to effectively BE 1 g/mL.
When the laboratory reports 1.8% (w/w), they are reporting 18 mg/mL.
Unless they've misquoted units, they've reported the liquid at 18 mg.

So either the lab was right and the sample liquid was 18 mg or the lab was wrong."

 

[supertrkre2812]

Glad to know that my math was right, but that kind of makes me wonder just how many people have been screwed by this? I am just like everyone else, i am looking for a way to buy high nic and cut it so i can save money. I guess i will use my "contact" and get a little 99% pure and cut it myself using USP PG and VG at 99.7% pure. BTW, i am an adult, know what it is, and how dangerous it is, and am trained and licensed to haul it, and handle it. If you do not want to mess with it, then don't. I have not, nor will i hire a nanny, so all nanny's stay away.

 

[DaMulta]

It's 36Mg, it's a different type of math. I forget where it's at, but it has been explaned before how that reads 36Mg.

 

[DVap]

I like that vapn guy.. he's pretty smart. He looks a lot like me back before I discovered this forum.

No, it's not a different type of math, the explanation that made 1.8% = 3.6% was gibberish, it made no sense to me and nobody stepped forward who could make it make sense to me. Until and unless someone can make it make sense to me, I stand by my conclusion that 1.8% = 1.8%.

I will say here that much of what follows is speculation, and I truly don't have enough information to make blanket statements about their products. One statement I can make is that regardless of possible inconsistency, their liquids are outstanding from a vaping standpoint.

I've been hesitant to state it publicly, but the 36 mg liquid that I tested at around 28 mg was TW's unflavored 36 mg liquid. Though I've not had an opportunity to test their stuff in a long time, I have a strong suspicion that they found out the answer to questions about what their supplier was giving them, and based on the silence, I'm guessing that answer was, "inconsistent potency".

That being said, they were at the mercy of a supplier's assurance as to the potency of their concentrate. I don't believe they're going to be blindly trusting going forward, no e-liquid producer should be. Perhaps they've hired a good lab to do their determinations to avoid any possible bruising to their reputation, perhaps they've cribbed my determination procedure from the nicotine determination thread here. Whatever, they've done, more power to them if they're not blindly trusting their supplier(s) any longer. Their reputation depends on reliability, and they know that. If they've been bitten in the past by a supplier, they are surely much wiser and cautious for the experience... they have absolutely no motivation to not be more cautious and less trusting.

I would be very surprised if their newer high-end platinum ice line (UK sourced start to finish) has any problem whatsoever (except for the ambitious price they want for it, but some folks pay it gladly, so to each his own). I would also be very surprised if they've not righted any inconsistency with the potency of their standard product line.

If you like their liquids, and you don't mind the price, I say go with TW and don't look back.

 

[DVap]

I guess i will use my "contact" and get a little 99% pure and cut it myself using USP PG and VG at 99.7% pure. BTW, i am an adult, know what it is, and how dangerous it is, and am trained and licensed to haul it, and handle it. If you do not want to mess with it, then don't.

Being trained and licensed in hauling and handling, I say more power to you. That being the case, I don't have to tell you to be careful, you already know to be careful, and more importantly, you know how to be careful.

 

[DaMulta]

Found it


Re: TW Newsletter 21st Aug

Postby tinytears » Aug 22nd, '09, 22:45
"The most recent July 09 results state that the nicotine content of the 36mg sample tested was 1.8%" Quote by Tetsab.



Percentage concentration (V/V, W/V, W/W), is very low concentration, or molar concentration oriented

For w/w, both solvent and solute would need to be weighed in the required ratios.

There are 3 basic ways to express concentration: 1) percentages, 2) very low concentrations, and 3) molar concentrations
1) % of concentration can be in V/V, W/W, or W/V

Like most %s, V/V and W/W need to have the same units on top and bottom.
W/V is sort of in the same units; V is mostly water and water’s density is 1 g/mL or 1 kg/L

1.8% (w/w) (weight/weight) of 30ml is certainly 36mg of nicotine, given the testing method limits.

 

[Vaporer]

I have never tried TW liquid. Many of the youtube reviews say it all has a peppery taste. Good for a strong throat hit. If I want my esophogus peeled into my stomach I better be vaping a lot of clove.
I thought the answer was gonna be "Anyone effected by this 18mg report that ordered 36mg received 2 bottles. If you didn't receive 2 bottles you got 36mg".

Yea.....my answer is better.

 

[DVap]

Found it


Re: TW Newsletter 21st Aug

Postby tinytears » Aug 22nd, '09, 22:45
"The most recent July 09 results state that the nicotine content of the 36mg sample tested was 1.8%" Quote by Tetsab.



Percentage concentration (V/V, W/V, W/W), is very low concentration, or molar concentration oriented

For w/w, both solvent and solute would need to be weighed in the required ratios.

There are 3 basic ways to express concentration: 1) percentages, 2) very low concentrations, and 3) molar concentrations
1) % of concentration can be in V/V, W/W, or W/V

Like most %s, V/V and W/W need to have the same units on top and bottom.
W/V is sort of in the same units; V is mostly water and water’s density is 1 g/mL or 1 kg/L

*1.8% (w/w) (weight/weight) of 30ml is certainly 36mg of nicotine, given the testing method limits.

That's the explanation I read, it is unfortunately, wrong.

The conclusion* does not follow from the discussion. (w/w) is weight of solute (nicotine) per weight of final solution (finished e-liquid).

 

[paise]

I'm kinda glad I haven't ordered any of their liquids as of yet because if I had and the nic liquid at 36mg was really at 18mg I would have known it and furthermore, I'd have been sorely .......

The one thing that prevents me from ordering their liquids is the price. I want to know if those bottles are lined with gold or something. Sure, the glass bottles with droppers are a little more expensive but not THAT much more. The regular e-liquid (not the unflavored) is made so that the vaping client can refill empty carts. It isn't as if the regular e-liquid is a DIY product where one KNOWS they have to mix it up or down with PG or VG or anything else.

It is my hope that TW will attempt to make amends to those who did order e-liquid around the time of this report that proves the potency wasn't in the same ballpark of where it should have been with regards to the nicotine levels.

I'd also like to know if they lined the bottles of that new decadent e-liquid with platinum or something because it is even MORE expensive. There is no way around it... TW's prices blow.

Thankfully, I've been fortunate enough to find a few suppliers that carry not only the pre-mixed e-liquids but also the DIY liquids and flavorings. Despite having given up analog cigarettes and using e-cigs since July 7th, I still go through these periods of time where I need that extra higher hit of nicotine to calm me down, esp when I'm on the verge of committing spousicide. 8-o I'd know without a doubt if an e-liquid I ordered has the right amount of strength or not. It's difficult to explain but I've bumped up my 24mg and 36mg enough times since switching from analogs to e-cigs enough to know where the nicotine levels should be and where they shouldn't be. Also, my body and mind sort of respond to the higher nicotine levels allowing me to calm down in the process.

Sadly enough, this just gives me one more reason to question ordering from TW anytime in the future. Perhaps they will find a way to prove themselves. When that day comes and when the prices match the e-liquids or rather are more in line with other e-liquid suppliers then I will consider ordering some liquid from them but not before.

 

[DVap]

I'm kinda glad I haven't ordered any of their liquids as of yet because if I had and the nic liquid at 36mg was really at 18mg I would have known it and furthermore, I'd have been sorely .......

The one thing that prevents me from ordering their liquids is the price. I want to know if those bottles are lined with gold or something. Sure, the glass bottles with droppers are a little more expensive but not THAT much more. The regular e-liquid (not the unflavored) is made so that the vaping client can refill empty carts. It isn't as if the regular e-liquid is a DIY product where one KNOWS they have to mix it up or down with PG or VG or anything else.

It is my hope that TW will attempt to make amends to those who did order e-liquid around the time of this report that proves the potency wasn't in the same ballpark of where it should have been with regards to the nicotine levels.

I'd also like to know if they lined the bottles of that new decadent e-liquid with platinum or something because it is even MORE expensive. There is no way around it... TW's prices blow.

Thankfully, I've been fortunate enough to find a few suppliers that carry not only the pre-mixed e-liquids but also the DIY liquids and flavorings. Despite having given up analog cigarettes and using e-cigs since July 7th, I still go through these periods of time where I need that extra higher hit of nicotine to calm me down, esp when I'm on the verge of committing spousicide. 8-o I'd know without a doubt if an e-liquid I ordered has the right amount of strength or not. It's difficult to explain but I've bumped up my 24mg and 36mg enough times since switching from analogs to e-cigs enough to know where the nicotine levels should be and where they shouldn't be. Also, my body and mind sort of respond to the higher nicotine levels allowing me to calm down in the process.

Sadly enough, this just gives me one more reason to question ordering from TW anytime in the future. Perhaps they will find a way to prove themselves. When that day comes and when the prices match the e-liquids or rather are more in line with other e-liquid suppliers then I will consider ordering some liquid from them but not before.

I'm not confident that the lab report proves anything, because I'm not confident in the lab report. Agreed, some real platinum in the Platinum Ice would go a long way towards justifying the price for me. However, if you want a liquid that goes the extra mile to preclude impurities, this might be worth the extra cost.

 

[exogenesis]

I've only got TW's juice & have been happy so far
(apart from the original 'flavourless' being a bit 'tobacco-y')

Read & commented in that post, my bet is that TW got delivered a
mis-labelled batch of 36mg, rather than any under-selling on their part.
Or perhaps the wrong juice got sent for testing by mistake.

It was good to see it wasn't 'hushed up', and the discussion is open
for all to see.

I agree with Vaporer though, the 2 for 1 offer would have been a good
thing to to (please put batch numbers on the labels TW guys !)

Don't want to come across as a stooge, but (as it happens)
I've currently got nine variously aged TW bottles (mostly kept in fridge),

30 ml bottle 'Flavouress', 'Super' = 36 mg/ml : two x un-opened, one x mostly full, two x half used.
30 ml bottle 'Tobacco', 'Super' = 36 mg/ml, half used.
30 ml bottle 'Cherry', 'High' = 24 mg/ml, 90% full
20 ml bottle 'Banana', 'High' = 24 mg/ml : one x unopened, one x two thirds used.

Also I have a (the) working nicotine measurement as per DVap's
titration method, would only take 10 mins or so (per sample) to get a
figure on 2ml out of each bottle.

(it's no real cost to me since I'm unlikely to use these juices so much now,
having effectively graduated onto Platinum Ice + Decadent Vapours flavours)

Should I do that, or would it not show anything relevant to the
sample being discussed ?

 

[DVap]

I've only got TW's juice & have been happy so far
(apart from the original 'flavourless' being a bit 'tobacco-y')

Read & commented in that post, my bet is that TW got delivered a
mis-labelled batch of 36mg, rather than any under-selling on their part.
Or perhaps the wrong juice got sent for testing by mistake.

It was good to see it wasn't 'hushed up', and the discussion is open
for all to see.

I agree with Vaporer though, the 2 for 1 offer would have been a good
thing to to (please put batch numbers on the labels TW guys !)

Don't want to come across as a stooge, but (as it happens)
I've currently got nine variously aged TW bottles (mostly kept in fridge),

30 ml bottle 'Flavouress', 'Super' = 36 mg/ml : two x un-opened, one x mostly full, two x half used.
30 ml bottle 'Tobacco', 'Super' = 36 mg/ml, half used.
30 ml bottle 'Cherry', 'High' = 24 mg/ml, 90% full
20 ml bottle 'Banana', 'High' = 24 mg/ml : one x unopened, one x two thirds used.

Also I have a (the) working nicotine measurement as per DVap's
titration method, would only take 10 mins or so (per sample) to get a
figure on 2ml out of each bottle.

(it's no real cost to me since I'm unlikely to use these juices so much now,
having effectively graduated onto Platinum Ice + Decadent Vapours flavours)

Should I do that, or would it not show anything relevant to the
sample being discussed ?

Exo... would you go ahead and test 2 ml from one of the 36 mg flavorless bottles and post here? (Preferably one bought in the last third of August if you have one like that or know the dates purchased with any certainty).

Just be aware that the error percentage for a small measuring error (say in a graduated cylinder) increases with smaller volumes. If you can part with 5 mL, a 0.2 mL error in hitting the 5 mL mark on a graduate would be only be 4% on either side. At 2 mL, a 0.2 mL error counts for 10% on either side. If you've got a precision syringe, the smaller volume is fine.

At 5 mL, with 0.1N acid, you should get the color change/pH meter endpoint (rapid pH drop) at 11.1 mL if the liquid is at labeled strength (or at 4.44 mL for 2 mL of liquid).

 

[exogenesis]

OK will do, I'll do a 5ml and a 2ml test to see if they come out the same

BRB (ish)

 

[Scottes]

Thanks for doing this Exo. I'm very curious.


I have to say that I don't think that possible (probable?) issues with "inconsistent potency" with any Chinese juice makes me happy that I DIY. I remember reading something about some official report where someone (FDA?) tested several samples and found the nicotine level to be inconsistent with the labeling. (I wish I had more info instead of foggy memory.) I've also read - a rumor I'm sure - that the Chinese use a lower grade of nicotine. Why is their juice always off-colored - tan, "goldish", whatever? Nic-juice should be clear. And I don't like the touch of bitterness that I get with Chinese nic-juice.

I have no such concerns with Blip, Platinum, or EcoPure. I have little info to base this on, but I have faith that these nic-juices are clean, much more pure than any Chinese nic-juice, and of the stated strength.