Health concerns regarding ecigs? I need clarification, BIG thanks to all for any help.

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mikepetro

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Use temp control and dont go above 450Fish if you want to minimize exposure.

Turns out VG is worse than PG with regards to formaldehyde:

Significant amounts of toxic carbonyl compounds can be created when common e-liquid solvents—i.e., PG, GL, or their mixture—are heated at high temperature, either intentionally by users to get more aerosol or accidently due to overheating. GL produced much more formaldehyde than PG under our testing conditions

A Device-Independent Evaluation of Carbonyl Emissions from Heated Electronic Cigarette Solvents
 
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sofarsogood

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Actually the study was done by the California Dept of Public Health, Evolv was just quoting it. Although John signed off on the validity of the study.
An interesting thing in Bellenger's tallk is the data he's collecting from customers. how many of his customers are vaping above 470 degrees? i wonder if his board collects temperature data for vapers in power mode?

I'm going to stay skeptical. I fiind the Calfornia public health people to be among the most notorious liars in a profession of shameless liars. Bellinger I'm sure is a good man I'm inclined to trust but he does have a conflict of interest. He sells a product directly related to the issue, in fact he holds a patent on temp control for ecigs. That doesn't mean there aren't valid findings but may be some others need to repeat the work and all that begs the question of what is the medical significance never the less. in the mean time i never go above 400 degrees so presumably i don't have to change anything I'm doing based on these results, right...right!?
 

mikepetro

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According to the data, you are in the safe range.

Yes, I grew up in L.A., California is like a bag of trail mix, full of nuts. However I know John, and yes he has a vested interest, but what I know of him is that the science comes first. In other words, if John says the study is credible, then I believe it.
 

Lessifer

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OK, Evolv finally published this data publicly now about the spike of formaldehyde and Acetaldehyde spiking like a sky rocket very quickly, double what is found in a cigarette, starting around 470F-480F.
Would it be reasonable to assume that the average vaper would notice the sky rocket like spike of formaldehyde and acetaldehyde, likely as a sharp acrid flavor, and not continue to vape at that temperature? I mean, it sounds like you're good, and then you hit that dry hit and boom, you get blasted with nasty stuff. I'm also assuming that acute exposure isn't as much of a concern as chronic exposure.

Don't mind me, just musing.
 

mikepetro

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This is an example of a Tootle puffer doing 10W, temps are clearly going past the "break point".

8:20 in John's video above.

upload_2017-3-5_19-57-23.png
 

classwife

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Would it be reasonable to assume that the average vaper would notice the sky rocket like spike of formaldehyde and acetaldehyde, likely as a sharp acrid flavor, and not continue to vape at that temperature? I mean, it sounds like you're good, and then you hit that dry hit and boom, you get blasted with nasty stuff. I'm also assuming that acute exposure isn't as much of a concern as chronic exposure.

Don't mind me, just musing.

This is an example of a Tootle puffer doing 10W, temps are clearly going past the "break point".

8:20 in John's video above.

View attachment 639175


But see the chart...it isn't re the 'dry hit', it's the vapes in a session.
 

Lessifer

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This is an example of a Tootle puffer doing 10W, temps are clearly going past the "break point".

8:20 in John's video above.

View attachment 639175
I'll have to watch the video when I get a chance, it just seems odd to me, that a vaper wouldn't notice the formation of acrid compounds when their average puff is above the "safe zone."

ETA: also, if I'm reading that chart right and the x axis is the duration of the puff, those long slow puffs that tootle puffers seem to like might not be the best.
 
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Riplea

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Crossposting because its important...

OK, Evolv finally published this data publicly now about the spike of formaldehyde and Acetaldehyde spiking like a sky rocket very quickly, double what is found in a cigarette, starting around 470F-480F.

Temperature Control is IMPORTANT folks!


Start about 6 minutes in:


Wow, all that does is confuse me even more. As a fairly new vapor, less than 2 months, not counting 7 years ago my first attempt...I have no clue how to figure out what temperature I am vaping at. I don't think I have the right coils to try temp settings and it will require even more reading which right now I am too tired to try and process.

I know you meant well posting this and hopefully those who actually understand it can benefit.
 

coffinnail

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But researchers were shocked to see that the toxins in ecigarette vapor were quite similar to the normal toxins found in regular room air. In fact, there was no major increase in toxins between normal air and ecig vapor.
-love this one...my input...sit in congested traffic in a car in a big city, and tell me its healthier than sitting in a restaurant in a small town in the smoking section. Analog smoke. Come on. Smoking ban, eh maybe. Vapor ban, wow, really? Get with the program.

In a puff-to-puff comparison, the cigarettes had 2000 times more toxins than the e-cigs.
-True ... will find the site and post soon here after...

They did this so they could Obtain the Results that they Wanted.
-Well said.

This so called scientist in New York was testing eCigs and he heavily modified the mod to produce vapor at 1,100 degrees and Shazam small amounts of formaldehyde was found. No one in their right mind vapes at that temperature!
-Steam Engine. Coil wrapping recommends that the nominal temperature for vaping is around 250 Fahrenheit I believe...check it out for yourself...1,000 degrees Fahrenheit, not even if you had a car battery jerry rigged to a mechanical mod I don't think. I don't know, just saying check out steam engine when you build coils and it will tell the wattage to vape at for what temperature. I think 325 is way too hot...I know I know. TC temperature control on most APV mods goes up to 600 plus degrees. But for how long. See what I mean. How long can you take a drag at that temp. I tried it. Once. On my SMOK HPRIV. The wick lit the e-liquid and cotton, and made a sound like an explosion. And I felt the heat in my mouth. Instantly. Didn't hurt me. But my point is, what wick was he using, and what kind of coil, and how much battery? I have read this somewhere else, about purposely overheating the e-liquid just to find out how harmful it can be. Cant imagine what a monster build that was. Cl"ow"ds for daze.....lol
 

Alien Traveler

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Would it be reasonable to assume that the average vaper would notice the sky rocket like spike of formaldehyde and acetaldehyde, likely as a sharp acrid flavor, and not continue to vape at that temperature?
May be it will be not very much noticeable. It will be about the same amount a smoker gets, and smoker has no bad feelings about it.
 
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Alien Traveler

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An interesting thing in Bellenger's tallk is the data he's collecting from customers. how many of his customers are vaping above 470 degrees? i wonder if his board collects temperature data for vapers in power mode?

I'm going to stay skeptical. I fiind the Calfornia public health people to be among the most notorious liars in a profession of shameless liars. Bellinger I'm sure is a good man I'm inclined to trust but he does have a conflict of interest. He sells a product directly related to the issue, in fact he holds a patent on temp control for ecigs. That doesn't mean there aren't valid findings but may be some others need to repeat the work and all that begs the question of what is the medical significance never the less. in the mean time i never go above 400 degrees so presumably i don't have to change anything I'm doing based on these results, right...right!?
I do not know how you get 470 degrees, because a paper we are discussing shows that emissions start at 415 F.
 

Lessifer

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May be it will be not very much noticeable. It will be about the same amount a smoker gets, and smoker has no bad feelings about it.
Having been a non smoker for over 3 years now, if I take a drag off a cigarette, I can taste how bad it is.
 

coffinnail

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An interesting thing in Bellenger's tallk is the data he's collecting from customers. how many of his customers are vaping above 470 degrees? i wonder if his board collects temperature data for vapers in power mode?

I'm going to stay skeptical. I fiind the Calfornia public health people to be among the most notorious liars in a profession of shameless liars. Bellinger I'm sure is a good man I'm inclined to trust but he does have a conflict of interest. He sells a product directly related to the issue, in fact he holds a patent on temp control for ecigs. That doesn't mean there aren't valid findings but may be some others need to repeat the work and all that begs the question of what is the medical significance never the less. in the mean time i never go above 400 degrees so presumably i don't have to change anything I'm doing based on these results, right...right!?

-Wow! Gr8 Reply. Busted the TC. My friends here at ecf have all led me to the site called steamengine. And I notoriously speed read through things and skip the important ones...but one thing I didn't skip was the temperature note that site gives when I punch in my build specs. Watts and temperature. 9 times out of 10. I like my vape a little warm. I think that's because I was a heavy analog smoker. A little warm, is 290F or maybe 310F. But Im new to vaping. And forget to consider such things as ramp up time. I get hasty and crank up the watts a little. 5w at a time. Until I found out with my one PV, that the charge and the amps of my current battery, significantly changes the ramp up time. Its not that difficult really. 3 saves in your faves, on your pc or phone. And you get all the info one needs to, shopping, building, and sharing your experience. Happy Safe Vaping. Besides, with all these APVs out. Idiot proof. Really. The "chipsets" in these APVs (Advanced Personal Vaporizer) will not send the watts or volts or any kind of power to an atomizer (tanks, attys, RDA, blah blah) whatever you like to call them, ETA will not send power if a "short" or electronic problem occurs. Take for instance, all the low voltage diagnostics on your vehicle. Yeah we have all heard of the run away burning vehicle. Just kidding. Runaway yes. So to speak. That subject belongs on another forum. Burning, yes. Again, another forum. But take into account, this diagnostic system on your vehicle, is very complex. And expensive. I believe, strongly, APVs are not as complex. Therefore can, and have been manufactured safely. No speed sensors, oxygen sensors, knock sensors, etc. telling the "gas pedal" what it is supposed to do. On mods, you push the trigger, and it heats an element. KISS. Simple. The Chinese, have been vaping for decades. And these "chipsets" on the regulated mods (APV)s are finicky at best. On purpose. So that the power sending "circuit" if you will, blows like a fuse. You must have read these reviews of mods, acting up, " I had to return my purchase". That's why you should buy an APV that has good reviews. As with any purchase. Especially a purchase that is close to your face and hands. Duh....just saying. If you would like to quit smoking analogs. And not chew gum, tobacco, or put a patch on. And would like to join me in a safe vape. Then just buy a low wattage "Regulated" APV (Advanced Personal Vaporizer) if it has a screen, and or more than one button. Its an APV. A mech or mechanical mod (Non-Regulated) you should read up and educate yourself before using this type of PV (Personal Vaporizer) All vendors, post mechanical mods or mechanical vaporizers or mechanical batteries (non-regulated) mods as such. I hope all. Havent seen a vendor that doesn't. They don't want to get sued. And they want to make money. This is all a hype. Hype of the dangers of vaping. Take for instance. You should touch your vehicle to ground yourself, so that you don't blow up the gas station while you enter or exit the filling nozzle. Its happened. So follow the rules. But we didn't outlaw gasoline.....wow.
 
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coffinnail

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Hi,

Firstly, thank you for opening my thread.

My story is I have been smoking cigarettes for 22 years. Last year I switched to vaping for a week. It was fantastic - I wasn't lethargic anymore and had alot of energy from vaping that I was even racing my children to see who could sprint faster and I was very content in my switch. Until a family friend who's a chemical engineer saw me vaping and told me to stop ecigs immediately and that cigarettes were much healthier. His theory was that the juice in ecigs when burnt at high temperatures cause harmful water based toxins including formaldehyde that adhere to the lungs and throat and that VG is a sugar which would feed any cancerous spores in the lungs. He did scare me and I returned to cigarettes again.

I was hoping for a scientific explanation - is my friend right or wrong? Do the ingredients in ejuice burnt at high temperatures change there molecule shape and become more dangerous? Do these molecule toxins stay in our lungs while we breath out water vapor, making vaping seem harmless? He also commented that vapor is heavier than smoke and can do more damage to soft tissue, is he right? I am sorry if maybe my answer is in another thread, if so can you provide a link, thank you.

I am writing this thread for your help because I would love to return to ecigs and wean off all nicotine and have the healthy energy to share with my family.

Lastly, congratulations to everyone who's quit smoking. Hopefully I can join you too soon.

Thank you for reading, kind regards torba

-Hi Torba. Seems your thread is a very hot topic right now. As it has to do with our rights, and freedom. Just my 2 cents. Here is a link of the latest and greatest. But you have to subscribe to read the whole article. I have found this article on another site. But just cant find it in my faves right now.

E-Cigarettes and Toxin Exposure | Annals of Internal Medicine | American College of Physicians

Hope this helps us all to. Happy Vaping.
 
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coffinnail

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I am just surprised that anyone with any fear would ever smoke cigarettes knowing what we have all known for years! Health effects of tobacco - Wikipedia
A Disturbing List of Toxic Chemicals in Cigarettes
But yet you are not scared enough of all of this evidence to quit smoking?
No one here has said that ecigs are 100% safe! But ecig studies have shown that ecigs are 95% safer than cigarettes. I think they only way for 100% safe would be cold turkey or try the nicotine gum!
Ecigs are not always the complete magic wand- Bam you instantly stop wanting cigarettes at least it wasn't for me! I stepped down for two weeks- set a quit date and stuck to it! Did I want a cigarette? Yes, but I did not give in- I just vaped more and day by day that cigarette urge faded- I made them work with will power too! I have gone from 24nic down to 3nic!
I use ecigs as a way to quit smoking cigarettes because I did my research and made that choice for me and what I read about ecigs was no where near as dangerous as to continue smoking cigarettes!
You have to make your own choice- I was just sick of the cost, smell and toll on my health and the people around me to keep smoking cigarettes! I was sick of the control they had over my life, there wasn't a day that was not planned around my cigarettes! I just wanted off the Merry-go-round and I found ecigs were my brass ring!
Best of luck to you on whatever you decide!

Another gr8 ecig vapor person...yeah...this is me...exactly...except the part I started in 2009 with 36mg nicotine on a cigalike. That cost $250....so I quit.....cig-a-likes. Kept smoking. Until a month ago. That's it. Im a quitter. Yep. I quit analogs. And vaping e-liquid has helped so much. I cant tell you. Recently. In 30 days. I have gone from 18mg nicotine to 6mg and 12mg. Depending on flavor and all sorts of variables. Im still learning, and lost in space....lol...and I like my new hobby.
 
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sofarsogood

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I do not know how you get 470 degrees, because a paper we are discussing shows that emissions start at 415 F.
The first poster gave me an impression that 470 degrees is a break point. Looking at the graphs i would choose 400 degrees but that's convenient for me since my temp control setting is 400 degrees. I'm interested in thiis study but not alarmed. Coinciidentally, in the past few days I've been playing with Arctic fox fiirmware on a pico. it let's me see max temp and max watts for each puff and that's been very interesting. I recommend the same to anyone with a compatible device.
 

JenJen101

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Hi,

Firstly, thank you for opening my thread.

My story is I have been smoking cigarettes for 22 years. Last year I switched to vaping for a week. It was fantastic - I wasn't lethargic anymore and had alot of energy from vaping that I was even racing my children to see who could sprint faster and I was very content in my switch. Until a family friend who's a chemical engineer saw me vaping and told me to stop ecigs immediately and that cigarettes were much healthier. His theory was that the juice in ecigs when burnt at high temperatures cause harmful water based toxins including formaldehyde that adhere to the lungs and throat and that VG is a sugar which would feed any cancerous spores in the lungs. He did scare me and I returned to cigarettes again.

I was hoping for a scientific explanation - is my friend right or wrong? Do the ingredients in ejuice burnt at high temperatures change there molecule shape and become more dangerous? Do these molecule toxins stay in our lungs while we breath out water vapor, making vaping seem harmless? He also commented that vapor is heavier than smoke and can do more damage to soft tissue, is he right? I am sorry if maybe my answer is in another thread, if so can you provide a link, thank you.

I am writing this thread for your help because I would love to return to ecigs and wean off all nicotine and have the healthy energy to share with my family.

Lastly, congratulations to everyone who's quit smoking. Hopefully I can join you too soon.

Thank you for reading, kind regards torba
I am also not a scientist, well I am/was a secondary science educator but cannot give you scientific data to support the health benefits regarding vaping compared to analogs. But I can tell you that in the last 4 years since I've switched to vaping, after smoking for 20+ years, I've never been healthier. I was plagued prior with chronic bronchitis as well as pneumonia since birth, & since the switch I have had neither. I hadn't gone 1 year in my entire life without being in the hospital w/either illness, & in fact 6 years ago spent 6 days in the ICU, & 9 days total in the hospital w/antibiotic resistant pneumonia.
Please tell your friend after reading all the other wonderful replies which give more scientific responses the information & then please add from me that if I'd have continued smoking much longer I'd probably be lucky to still be alive. State that you appreciate him caring about your well being of course, but when it comes to vaping I think he needs to do a lot more of his own research before giving out such scary, false information. :)
 

SnapDragon NY

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Another gr8 ecig vapor person...yeah...this is me...exactly...except the part I started in 2009 with 36mg nicotine on a cigalike. That cost $250....so I quit.....cig-a-likes. Kept smoking. Until a month ago. That's it. Im a quitter. Yep. I quit analogs. And vaping e-liquid has helped so much. I cant tell you. Recently. In 30 days. I have gone from 18mg nicotine to 6mg and 12mg. Depending on flavor and all sorts of variables. Im still learning, and lost in space....lol...and I like my new hobby.
Yes, Will Power helped me get through it too! Cigalikes and egos were pretty much all that was out there at the time! I just stayed stubborn and quit cigarettes! I was so done with them! Over 2 years later, still have not had 1 cigarette - The devices that are on the market now are fantastic and so are the prices! So many eliquid companies out there now- and much better DIY eliquid advice too!
In the last two years vaping has gotten so much better! I now build my own coils and have high wattage mods all for less than I paid for my 1st kits of cigalikes!
The FDA ruling has pushed me into stockpiling and the prices on most of this gear has helped me achieve my goal to keep vaping for many years to come!
 
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