Help a noob make some menthol, important questions inside.

[Babachoo]

I've read a ton of threads already but there doesn't seem to be a clear consensus anywhere so I figured it wouldn't hurt to post my own experience and hopefully cook up some great menthol juice with the help of you all.

I've got some around 90ML of 36mg mint...
30ML of 36mg unflavored (will buy more once I've got a good recipe that is ready to mass produce)
1/4 lb. of menthol crystals
16oz. VG 100% kosher
1 gal. 100% USP PG but says (for animal use only) which I'm not caring about since it's pure and USP. I understand that many pharma products are remarketed as agricultural products that do not require a prescription. This angers Big Pharma and small compounders alike because vet supply stores and feed stores can sell the same things they sell, without a prescription, and cheaper than what the pharmacist can even buy it for. Google "case law animal legend versus federal legend" without quotes for plenty of info on that. Just figured I'd take the chance to further educate you all on that matter since I hadn't seen it mentioned anywhere on the forums yet.
Plenty of amber dropper bottles, 3ml to 60ml
16 guage syringes, 6ml and 35ml.

A few of these things are still in transit and should be here tuesday. But as far as I can remember, I've got everything I need, except for ethyl alcohol, ethanol, or everclear.

So my main questions I have before I get started are...

1. I started vaping 14mg mint and loved it. Very smooth, perfect amount of throat hit, PG based liquid, great vapor. But when I got the 36mg mint, I tried vaping it straight and it was WAY too harsh for me. Will cutting it (and adding a little menthol flavor to make up for the lack of flavor I cut also) get rid of the harshness and make it as smooth as the 14mg I used to vape? If so, I haven't really seen any solid info on nicotine levels directly affecting harshness, but I guess that's the case?

2. On the recipe hack sheet, it recommends (if I remember right) mixing 1 part VG to 1 part PG. Does this produce the best mixture in regards to both flavor and vaporization? Other people cut with only PG or only VG, but my initial thought is that VG is too thick and sweet and PG is too thin and kills vapor (if you only cut with one or the other), but mixing them 50/50 for your base for the cutting portion seems to make better sense. Those of you who have experimented a lot with DIY Juice, do you agree? Why or why not?

3. How important is it to add ethanol, ethyl alcohol, or Everclear PGA? I've read mixed reports on these being added to DIY juices, or being used to dissolve menthol crystals, but is it really safe to vape ethanol??? That just doesn't seem right.

4. I was thinking that if the alcohol really was needed, maybe I could just use a few drops to dissolve the menthol crystals and then add the mixture to the batch, rather than adding a straight 10% or whatever the recommended ethanol/PGA amount is to the batch. Does this sound like a good plan or do I really need alcohol at all or as much as the recipe calls for?

5. Some recipes (hack-o-matic sheet comes to mind) call for small amounts of distilled water. I haven't found any yet, though I'm sure WalMart has some. Does WalMart also sell Ethanol? If not, where could I get some? Pharmacy maybe? Also, is the distilled water really needed at all? It only calls for like 1-3% by volume.

That's all I can think of for now, I'll probably post more questions as they come to me and as I start experimenting. Thanks in advance, hopefully a lot of people will be able to learn from this thread, not just me.

 

[Babachoo]

Bumpity bump bump. Any help at all would be great.

 

[wanderlust]

Afraid I can't help much. I have cut 36 mg menthol with propylene glycol and added a few drops of flavoring with mixed results. Vaping was OK and even added some glycerine because every one keeps talking about it so much. I used the small "travel containers" from JC for the mix in order to not ruin a larger amount. Sorry I can't be of more help.

 

[Babachoo]

Afraid I can't help much. I have cut 36 mg menthol with propylene glycol and added a few drops of flavoring with mixed results. Vaping was OK and even added some glycerine because every one keeps talking about it so much. I used the small "travel containers" from JC for the mix in order to not ruin a larger amount. Sorry I can't be of more help.

Thanks for the reply, every bit of info and experience shared helps. Did you cut it down to 14-18mg by any chance? That's what I plan on cutting down to and I was wondering how much of the harshness goes away. Also, what flavoring did you add, and were you able to achieve the great taste you'd expect from premixed juice? Oh and did you like it better or less when you added a little VG?

Thanks a bunch, I appreciate your time.

 

[Tetsab]

Just from my own experience -

1) If the flavour 'drops off' from diluting, you could try adding pure peppermint oil. Do it very carefully, though - that stuff is STRONG, try a tiny bit in a few ml to start and as Wanderlust suggests, mix small to start so you don't waste loads. Then try it and see.
2) I've never bought any PG, just used VG mixed with some purified water for diluting and that works fine. VG is too thick so the water is just to reduce the viscosity, I use around 3:1 VG to water, works OK for me.
3) You don't need alcohol to dissolve the menthol crystals, but you could if you want - I've just used vodka when I have. Alternatively, drop ONE small crystal of menthol into (say) 5ml of liquid, replace cap then warm/heat it. I have a solid fuel stove and used this in winter (put the bottle on top) to heat the mixture gently, shake a few times and the menthol dissolves in e-liquid no problem. Could try a cooling cooker top, temp you need is too warm to keep a finger on but not hot enough to burn at a quick touch. Small point - 4oz of menthol crystal is probably enough for many gallons of e-liquid, again, it is VERY strong and it IS possible to overdo it very easily. Try tiny first. Modify as needed.
4) Probably a preference thing - try both and see which you prefer.
5) I'm in the UK and I'm guessing you are US (no WalMarts here) but any pharmacy here would be able to supply purified or distilled water. Bear in mind once you've opened it two or three times it won't be so 'pure' any more and of course it has no chlorine in it to deter bacterial growth etc. So once again you might want to buy a small amount for experimenting with.

Although you have mentioned some of the equipment you have armed yourself with, I do hope this includes at least gloves to protect yourself as well as anyone else! Nicotine IS seriously poisonous, there's just no getting away from it. There are reasons why not everyone is keen to handle liquid in quantity - what would you do if you splashed some in your eye, for instance? Or spilt a pint of the stuff on your floor?

You've mentioned 'mass producing' - I'd say most folk wouldn't be so happy about the use of PG which was anything other than pharmaceutical grade, purely for hygiene reasons. What you might choose for your own use really concerns no-one but your good self, but if you are selling, it is a bit different. With all the concerns about Chinese production methods and standards, you are just feeding the concerns of the legislators if you go ahead using agricultural ingredients.

The other problem is that what YOU think tastes just perfect won't necessarily suit everyone else's unique taste buds. This whole section of the forum is for do-it-yourselfers after all, not would-be manufacturers. Having said all that, if you do go ahead I wish you well and all the best of luck.

 

[Jules22871]

I make menthol for my son. All I do is use 2.5ml of Ruyan#4 36mg and 2.5mg of VG, and one tiny piece of menthol. He has 2 bottles at any given time. I just let it sit over night and the menthol dissolves just fine. He likes this better than any of the menthol we have bought. Remember with the menthol crystals, less is more. You can very easily ruin a batch if you get to much in there. You can always add to it, but you can't take it back out.

 

[wanderlust]

Yep, I cut it half like you're wanting to do and really lost none of the throat hit but most of the taste. When I added a small amount of glycerine I didn't see any more vapor but could certainly taste the sweetness. Believe it or not added Bavarian Creme by drops to achieve a taste I liked and vaped most of it. Tried the same mixture after it sat for a couple of days and did not like it at all.

 

[Babachoo]

Now this is what I was hoping for! Thanks for the excellent info and suggestions.

I'll just be producing it for myself, and possibly a friend or two, I don't sell anything other than adding a pv here and there to my orders on behalf of friends who are afraid of online shopping lol. Great info about the precautions too. I figured using a syringe where you don't actually handle the liquid would be safe enough, but accidents do happen. Like you said, if I wasn't wearing goggles (which I now will), a bit splashed in the eye could possibly make my life a LOT worse, so thanks for reminding me that you can never be too safe, especially when handling something as potent as nicotine.

Thanks for your suggestions and experiences with mixing too. I think I'll try tiny 2ml batches at a time. I think I may start with a

50% 36mg mint
30% PG
20% VG

mixture at first, adding menthol crystals tiny fragments at a time until it tastes minty again, and just use subtle heat to dissolve them rather than alcohol. I'll then rate the batches based on mint taste, vapor production, harsh/smooth, viscosity (if too thin it'll probably leak into the mouthpiece too often), and some other factors. Then I'll probably tweak it a little bit even if the first batch is really good, just to see if it can get any better by using distilled water, alcohol, or using less or more PG or VG by volume.

I guess I'll hit the local pharmacy for some distilled water and hopefully some ethyl alcohol.


ALSO: You mentioned distilled water losing its purity. You know those vials that have the caps on them where you stick the syringe into them? Do those automatically seal back up, keeping the contents pure? I'll have to google that real quick because that might be a good way to keep distilled water, or even some of the base liquids fresh and keep me from ordering new supplies as they spoil. I have no idea what they're called though. I'll post if I find out anything.


Thanks again guys, my stuff comes in tomorrow so I'm really anxious to start doing my mad scientist work, I just hope my family never drops by when I'm mixing up a batch. They'll think I'm running a .... lab or something. :

 

[yield2me]

some advice: go easy on the menthol crystals, I had to throw a batch out the other day because it tasted like vicks cough syrup :/

 

[Tetsab]

Baba, I'm much reassured - sounds like you are taking what I said exactly as I intended, I think it was you saying you had a gallon of PG that got me a bit concerned, had visions of you mixing up literally bucketfuls in your kitchen/garage/whatever! With smaller mixes you're probably much safer all round.

I'd still say you could find it worthwhile to get hold of some peppermint oil - oddly enough menthol itself doesn't actually taste all that minty, so if that is what you enjoy the most menthol alone may not provide it! The menthol is what gives the fresh, tube-clearing feeling as if you've opened your lungs that bit deeper and the combination is what I like myself.

Admit I'd never thought of sealed vials for the water - you could try asking the pharmacist for advice. The downside could be that the syringe itself could contaminate it unless sterile! Also the syringes I've used are blunt ones... I've just settled for only getting a fairly small quantity then being careful about getting the top back on the bottle and not leaving it open any longer than it has to be. Should only be talking pennies (or cents!) for cost here. Refrigeration isn't a bad idea either, just as it is for milk.

The shelf life for the liquids themselves is supposed to be around 18 - 24 months, and the general opinion seems to be that room temperature is fine for storage but keep out of direct sunlight. If you've got kids you want to keep it out of their sight and reach anyhow.

Hope you'll have great fun seeking the perfect menthol - just don't forget to keep a note of your recipes in case you succeed; then you can pass it on to the rest of us!

 

[Babachoo]

Baba, I'm much reassured - sounds like you are taking what I said exactly as I intended, I think it was you saying you had a gallon of PG that got me a bit concerned, had visions of you mixing up literally bucketfuls in your kitchen/garage/whatever! With smaller mixes you're probably much safer all round.

I'd still say you could find it worthwhile to get hold of some peppermint oil - oddly enough menthol itself doesn't actually taste all that minty, so if that is what you enjoy the most menthol alone may not provide it! The menthol is what gives the fresh, tube-clearing feeling as if you've opened your lungs that bit deeper and the combination is what I like myself.

Admit I'd never thought of sealed vials for the water - you could try asking the pharmacist for advice. The downside could be that the syringe itself could contaminate it unless sterile! Also the syringes I've used are blunt ones... I've just settled for only getting a fairly small quantity then being careful about getting the top back on the bottle and not leaving it open any longer than it has to be. Should only be talking pennies (or cents!) for cost here. Refrigeration isn't a bad idea either, just as it is for milk.

The shelf life for the liquids themselves is supposed to be around 18 - 24 months, and the general opinion seems to be that room temperature is fine for storage but keep out of direct sunlight. If you've got kids you want to keep it out of their sight and reach anyhow.

Hope you'll have great fun seeking the perfect menthol - just don't forget to keep a note of your recipes in case you succeed; then you can pass it on to the rest of us!

More great advice and you bring up a point that I didn't think about, that the needles may contaminate the liquid. So yeah, I'll probably just use it like you do and restock as needed. As for the peppermint oil, do you mean the kind you would get as an aromatherapy type of essential oil, like Lavender Oil, or like a Lorann's flavoring type of food-grade substance? I've read people warning not to use oils and stuff that is more for fragrance and not for taste. I think my shampoo has peppermint oil that opens up the pores and leaves your scalp feeling cool, but is that the same stuff you're talking about? I assume you're talking about a peppermint oil designed for candy manufacturing flavoring, but I wonder how I could tell the difference (if there is one) when searching for it. I'm glad you let me know the difference between the menthol crystals and the actual peppermint oil, I may try both like you suggested if I can figure out where to get something safe.

 

[mamu]

I just found a source for pure spearmint powder. I'm patiently (?) waiting for it to arrive so I can get a spearmint/menthol base.

I'm a total menthol fan, but I got some spearmint liquid from eastmall.net and I am so totally hooked now.

I plan to do a pg/vg/ethyl maltol/ethanol base and add the spearmint and menthol drops to taste.

 

[Tetsab]

This thread could run & run, couldn't it!?

OK, to business - Peppermint Oil; yes I do mean the essential oil just as you would use for aromatherapy. I've always understood it as safe to inhale from a vapouriser/oil burner and also for internal use mixed with water for indigestion. That is what I use myself and it is amazingly strong, as all essential oils are. If you dip a cocktail stick in it then swirl the stick in a small eliquid batch this is the kind of quantity you would be using. You only add more if you need it. Looked it up quickly on eBay and found this listing:
2 OZ Peppermint Essential Oil 100% PURE Uncut on eBay, also, Aromatherapy, Natural Homeopathic Remedies, Health Beauty (end time 29-Jun-09 04:53:38 BST)
This isn't a recommendation (never heard of the seller before, let alone traded) just an example to show you the kind of thing I mean. 2oz is LOADS, I have a 10ml bottle which will probably outlast its own expiry date in 2013.

I hadn't thought of trying out a food flavouring, you could certainly try it but will be much less strong so you would need to use more. The advantage of the essential oil is that you need so little I don't worry about the atomiser problem. If you read the ingredients of eliquids they most always include tobacco essential oils already.

I wouldn't add something like almond oil (for instance) to eliquid but haven't had any problems I know about so far using essential oils for flavours. The worst thing that happened was putting too much clove (2 drops) into a mix - turned a little cloudy, but worse it was totally unvapeable because it was so strong! I'm now using 2 drops of that in the next mix as a flavour.

Just FYI, menthol is actually extracted from mint and the crystals are like the super-strong refined distillation but as I said before, doesn't actually taste that minty all on it's own. It will be the menthol in your shampoo which gives the cooling sensation. I believe I'm right in saying that menthol can be regarded as a drug in it's own right due to this kind of effect and how it helps your breathing - that's why it is in cough mixtures etc.

Mamu - spearmint powder!! Looked that up on eBay as well but the only ones I found looked like just powdered dried leaves. I actually grow spearmint in my garden and tried making a tincture (alcohol extraction using vodka) with some but it didn't taste good at all. If the powder you have found works, come back and let us know - I adore spearmint too, and might have to try out David's on the strength of your recommendation!

Vape on, all!

 

[Babachoo]

Cool, I went ahead and googled a bit and inhalation of peppermint oil vapor is indeed safe and can actually be healthy and beneficial, so I'll definitely order some. I checked the supplier I ordered VG and amber bottles from (extremely cheap) Mountain Rose Herbs | Bulk organic herbs, spices & essential oils, and found that they've got 1/2 ouce (15ml) for $3 and some change, so I'll definitely give that a try the next time I order from them.

Here's a link to their peppermint oil if you're interested. Mountain Rose Herbs | Bulk organic herbs, spices & essential oils

I also just found that they've got a monthly special on 2oz. Peppermint Oil flavoring extract (contains 50% organic ethyl alcohol for dilution) for around $4. I'm really loving their site and definitely recommend it for quite a few DIY needs. http://www.mountainroseherbs.com/se...keywords=peppermint+flavoring+extract&x=0&y=0

 

[Tetsab]

Thanks Baba, went and looked at the Mountain Rose Herbs site - they do sound like really good people. Think I spotted where your 4oz menthol came from!

That 50% flavour might well do you nicely, the alcohol will help to blend the oil into the eliquid. Sadly I couldn't see how much their shipping costs to UK might be without adding all my details and logging in which seemed a bit much just for the sake of interest.

Have lots of fun and hope it all works out.

 

[badmonkey]

I got some Lorann wintergreen flavoring, not oil. Mixed it in with some 11 mg Marlboro for my menthol friends to try. They like it. They say it reminds them of a menthol analog, but fresher-tasting. Be aware that these folks don't usually vape. I just wanted them to try it so they could see what I've been doing.

 

[Tetsab]

I got some Lorann wintergreen flavoring, not oil. Mixed it in with some 11 mg Marlboro for my menthol friends to try. They like it. They say it reminds them of a menthol analog, but fresher-tasting. Be aware that these folks don't usually vape. I just wanted them to try it so they could see what I've been doing.

Oh whoops - I'm sure I have seen somewhere that wintergreen is one of the things NOT advisable for inhalation. I'm more than happy to be proved wrong, but would strongly suggest you carry out a search with the keyword 'wintergreen' to check in the old posts.

I do seem to remember that Lorann's flavourings are mostly 'artificial' flavours rather than natural extracts, but I really would check it out before using much of this, sorry if it sounds like I'm being a wet blanket.

 

[Babachoo]

Thanks Baba, went and looked at the Mountain Rose Herbs site - they do sound like really good people. Think I spotted where your 4oz menthol came from!

That 50% flavour might well do you nicely, the alcohol will help to blend the oil into the eliquid. Sadly I couldn't see how much their shipping costs to UK might be without adding all my details and logging in which seemed a bit much just for the sake of interest.

Have lots of fun and hope it all works out.

I did indeed get 4oz. of menthol crystals there for $10, just opened their package 15 minutes ago and everything was very well packed and even half the amount of crystals (2oz) would be a lifetime supply I think.

I checked out their site again for you, standard international shipping to London,UK is listed as $13.50 for just an order of 4oz. menthol crystals alone. You can check out without signing up for an account, just select the appropriate option when ready to check out "check out without using an account" or something like that, you'll see it.

I also plugged in a big order that contained like 15 glass dropper bottles, 16oz. of VG, basically enough to be a 4-5lb. box, and the standard intl. shipping went to $44.50. So it may be unfeasible to pay that much for shipping, that's up to you. If it is, I suggest maybe emailing them to see if they have an affiliate or another supplier they could recommend in the UK area, they seem like friendly folks who probably wouldn't mind helping you out.

 

[Babachoo]

Just mixed up a 2ml batch. Was trying for 14mg like I started vaping. Worth noting is that I have been on analogs for the last two weeks while I waited on juice and supplies to come in, so I won't focus on initial tastes too much, but judge it better after I'm back to 100% vaping again and fully off the analogs, and give my system time to adjust back to the flavors and sensations of vaping. That way I'll be comparing DIY batches to each other with a clean pallete that is once again used to vaping.

.8 ml 36mg mint commercial eliquid
.6 ml PG
.5 ml VG
tiny menthol crystal about 1/8" long by 1/16th wide
no alcohol, no distilled water

I dripped a couple drops on my atty and tested before filling up a whole cartridge, in case the batch was god awful for some reason. It's been 2 weeks since I've vaped so the different type of throat hit from an analog is now new to me again so it will take some getting used to. Also, my commercial liquid is PG based according to my supplier, so I won't be able to tell what type of difference it will make to increase or lessen the VG amount until I do a LOT of testing. But here are my initial thoughts, which will be kept brief for now and elaborated on over the next few days once I smoke the remaining two packs of analogs left in this carton.

This is supposed to be 14mg strength, but I admit I plan on getting some syringes smaller than the 6ml ones I have now. I would like to be extremely precise, especially for mixing tiny 2ml test batches, so it looks like I'll stop by Tractor Supply again tomorrow after work. That should help these experiments be more scientific and precise, and thus help larger batches be able to accurately scale with the same properties, once I find a couple of recipes that I feel are "perfect".

After about 20 puffs over 20 minutes time, I can say that it fairly closely resembles the mint commercial liquid I used to vape. It's fairly smooth, the harsh throat hit of the 36mg has definitely been scaled back for the better. There's a bit of scratchy throat feeling left over after a couple puffs, and I can't remember if I felt that before or not. If not, it may be because of having been on analogs for the last two weeks and having to get used to vaping again. It could also be from the VG being added, or not enough menthol crystals being added. I do taste menthol, but I don't know how much is from the commercial juice in the mix and how much is from the crystal I added. I think I will try around 4 times as much in the next batch, and if it is too strong and minty, I can always just increase the base liquids again by 2, and bring the flavor down by 50% without wasting any juice at all.

I'm glad I'm typing this out now, not only to share with others, but so I don't forget what I'm wanting to try next. Look for more posts over the next few days, I'll probably try another batch tomorrow with a lot more flavor and maybe less VG, we'll see.

EDIT: Thought I'd add that the crystal I used, if it were liquid, might be equal to about 2 drops or 1/10th of a ml or so. Not sure how that compares to how much others have used, I'm currently trying to find other examples with not much luck so far. Also, after mixing it all together in an amber dropper bottle, I filled a bowl with hot tap water and sat the amber bottle in the water for about 3 minutes, it had thinned a bit (I keep my commercial juice refrigerated) and the crystal was nowhere in sight. I've got a digital thermometer I'll probably use from now on, especially if I can find a recommended temperature to heat to for dissolving the crystal.

EDIT2: Just looked back at the spec sheet (Hackomatic something or other found here on the forums), and it said to use 5% flavoring, which equals 2 drops or .1ml. I had no idea my guesstimation was exactly what that sheet recommended, dumb luck I guess. But I still want to try more like I mentioned above, because I've seen a lot of recipes say to use 10% flavor, so I'll probably just increase it by double rather than X4 next time.

 

[Babachoo]

Well I made a 5ml batch this morning and oh my god I am loving it so friggin much!

I made it around 18mg strength, 50/50 pg/vg mix, a lot more menthol crystals, maybe 10% of the total mixture or so (I need to remember to have all of the liquids in a syringe before adding menthol crystals from now, that way I can tell how many mililiters of crystals I'm adding. But the harsh part of the throat hit has now been completely replaced by orgasmicly smooth and cool menthol throat hit and it is so damn good, you have no idea. This stuff if much better than the 14mg mint commercial liquid I used to get. It's absolutely the closest thing to an actual menthol analog I've tasted thus far. Also, the vapor is stellar, even small puffs put out a cloud similar to my old analogs. (I say old even though I smoked my last one a few hours ago, but I know I'll never go back to them again now that I'm already getting DIY results this goo. So glad I added more menthol this time, sooooo much better. No more chemical or burnt taste at all, just smooth menthol and a huge grin on my face now.

So the approximate recipe for this batch was

50% commercial 36mg mint liquid
20% VG
20% PG
10% Menthol crystals

Pure and simple, and an amazing menthol taste, closer to analog menthol taste than I ever thought I'd get with vaping.