Help!!! TPA red hots flavor (PG)

[Doug_xx2]

ummmmm ok I made about 15 ml of this bought straight from the source and it tasted great at 15% with some mt baker sweetener. But.......

It turned milky white when I shook it. Then I was vaping it through a backup ce4+ and this morning I found the whole inside coated with some white substance that is hard to scrape off even with a screw driver that seemed to harden when it hit water and the black plastic mouth piece was actually melting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Holy .....!!!!!!!!!!!

What went wrong?

I made a mistake it was the first time I had used the flavoring and the first time I used the pg and vg from a new non ejuice source. I must say though when I talked to the guy selling the vg and pg he seemed to know a little about my use for it and said lots of people get it from him for the same purpose. It was usp it was kosher and I saw the chemical certification data sheets and certificates for both. Therefore I am leaning toward the flavoring.

The white film does not seem to have a taste. It is pure white.

I am confused and a little freaked out as me and my fiance both vaped about half a ml of this stuff last night.

Neither of us are having breathing problems and neither of us are sick just concerned.

Any info would be appreciated

thanks
Doug_xx2

 

[wllmc]

alot of flavors will crack and melt some plastic tanks. cinnamon being one of them . the vape shop i used to go to all the time had a sign up of know tank crackers. my wife put a flavor in 2 tanks the shop swore wouldnt break the tank she had. it was a blueberry flavor. she melted 2 tanks with that juice and had another one with cinnamon shatter. i dont know why or the science so i dont have a real reason im sure someone will chime in, all i know is it happens

 

[we2rcool]

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/clearomizers/219179-lets-make-list-juices-flavors-crack-tanks-ce2s-clearos-10.html

 

[Doug_xx2]

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/clearomizers/219179-lets-make-list-juices-flavors-crack-tanks-ce2s-clearos-10.html

Is this the same problem they are talking about in the other thread? (see attached pics)

 

[we2rcool]

Is this the same problem they are talking about in the other thread? (see attached pics)

View attachment 307369 View attachment 307370 View attachment 307371 View attachment 307372

Yes, that's exactly it!

 

[LazarusX]

Was probably melting your bottle, make sure to use HDPE or glass to hold cinnamon. Glass tanks are also recommended for Cinnamon and a few other flavors.

 

[Doug_xx2]

Was probably melting your bottle, make sure to use HDPE or glass to hold cinnamon. Glass tanks are also recommended for Cinnamon and a few other flavors.

what is hdpe?

It doesn't look like it is eating the bottle but who knows? I got em from mt baker? Do you know if those are ok?

 

[Doug_xx2]

High-density polyethylene gotcha ty

Nope they are selling ldpe bottles so I guess the whole bottle has to go in the trash. that sucks I really like it... Grrrrrrr!!!

 

[Doug_xx2]

and someone comes up with the answer I needed (mined it with google. Not scientific but testimonial so I'll take it anyway)

Quote from Fireball | E-Liquid Flavors | Revolution Vapor

Comments

Submitted by BikerMike on Fri, 12/20/2013 - 18:51.
fireball liquid
Question: How does the fireball e-juice destroy the plastic tanks? It comes in a plastic bottle. What's the ingredients in that vape juice that causes this to happen. I know when i make my own. I use a mix of 30/70 pg/vg plus flavor. And none of the flavors i make have ever destroyed a tank. so what is the content in the flavor that causes this ?

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Submitted by e.swick on Mon, 12/23/2013 - 14:13.
Fireball
Fireball liquid contains cinnamaldehyde, the essential oil which gives cinnamon its unique taste. This oil attacks certain plastics, although it does not react with our plastic bottles, which are made of LDPE. Nevertheless, it will crack most of the hard, clear plastics that tanks are made from, including polycarbonate.

Our M7 Pro Tanks are made of steel and pyrex glass, which will not react with the Fireball liquid. It's a great solution for the Fireball fans out there.

Here's some more info on cinnamaldehyde for those who're interested:

Cinnamaldehyde - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

<End quote>

Guess I can keep the juice and just vape it in my pro tank as the bottles I am using are ldpe

 

[Doug_xx2]

Well interesting development at least for me hopefully for you to.

I shook my juice and it turned white like it has since I made it. White as milk. Then I added nicotine in a pg base and shook and wonder of wonders it instantly turned clear with a yellowish tint like the nicotine had instantly aged?

Anyone know why this happened? Obviously some sort of chemical reaction but...

will it reduce the potency of the nicotine in the juice?
did it make toxic chemicals from the cinnamaldehyde and nicotine in that reaction??
What just happened?
Very strange!!!
Will it still eat plastic?

 

[AndriaD]

This makes me hopeful for own tanks, on my eRoll -- my husband has worked in the packaging industry for many years, including a long stint in a plant that blow-molded bottles from HDPE and LDPE; I also worked in that plant, doing QC on the blow-molded bottles; both of us became very familiar with HDPE plastics, and after my husband beat on, stomped on, popped the lids off, and just generally tried to destroy my eRoll tanks, both of us came to believe that the tank is HDPE, not the more-brittle polycarbonate.

However I did see some cloudiness in a mix I made today, of 1 part oak barrel cider, 1 part cinnamon redhot, 1 part Virginia tobacco, and 1 part plain PG... but I did not see this cloudiness until AFTER I shook it up vigorously to make sure it was well mixed -- in a glass bottle. Coulld it have been merely air bubbles, from the vigorous shaking?

Andria

 

[Doug_xx2]

This makes me hopeful for own tanks, on my eRoll -- my husband has worked in the packaging industry for many years, including a long stint in a plant that blow-molded bottles from HDPE and LDPE; I also worked in that plant, doing QC on the blow-molded bottles; both of us became very familiar with HDPE plastics, and after my husband beat on, stomped on, popped the lids off, and just generally tried to destroy my eRoll tanks, both of us came to believe that the tank is HDPE, not the more-brittle polycarbonate.

However I did see some cloudiness in a mix I made today, of 1 part oak barrel cider, 1 part cinnamon redhot, 1 part Virginia tobacco, and 1 part plain PG... but I did not see this cloudiness until AFTER I shook it up vigorously to make sure it was well mixed -- in a glass bottle. Coulld it have been merely air bubbles, from the vigorous shaking?

Andria

Well the tpa redhots flavor all by itself in pg and vg turned white as milk when shaken and then cleared up over night and would go white again when shaken again and I could see the oil sitting on top before shaking. When I added nic though it went clear instantly with a yellow tint. I will let you know tommorow morning actually early afternoon what it looks like. It didn't look like the air bubbles I normally see when I shake a bottle of juice.

 

[DVap]

If, upon shaking a flavoring with the VG or PG base, the mix turns milky, then something in the flavoring simply is not soluble in the base (or alternately, something in the flavoring is attacking the bottle and that material is insoluble in the VG or PG).

I'd mix in glass to see if the same milkiness occurs. If it doesn't, that means the flavoring is attacking the bottle, if it does, then something in the flavoring isn't soluble in the VG/PG. If the former occurs, then the mix might be OK as long as it's mixed and stored in glass. If the latter occurs, then the flavoring isn't compatible with PG/VG and I wouldn't recommend it.

 

[Topdogie01]

and to the nic instantly turning yellowish when shaken, nicotine reacts to oxygen, giving it the yellowish tint, but it should not yellow that fast. nic liquid that is yellow from oxidation is still fine to use.

 

[Doug_xx2]

If, upon shaking a flavoring with the VG or PG base, the mix turns milky, then something in the flavoring simply is not soluble in the base (or alternately, something in the flavoring is attacking the bottle and that material is insoluble in the VG or PG).

I'd mix in glass to see if the same milkiness occurs. If it doesn't, that means the flavoring is attacking the bottle, if it does, then something in the flavoring isn't soluble in the VG/PG. If the former occurs, then the mix might be OK as long as it's mixed and stored in glass. If the latter occurs, then the flavoring isn't compatible with PG/VG and I wouldn't recommend it.

I did mix it in corning Pyrex glass but then stored it and shook it in an ldpe bottle the thin layer of clear fluid on top before shaking would suggest cinnamon oil to me but the the instant and stark reaction when mixed with nicotine in a pg carrier was weird. Do you have any thoughts on that? Would the Cinnamaldehyde cause that reaction maybe? I thought it was very strange but I am NOT a chemist nor have I taken chemistry for that matter.

 

[DVap]

I did mix it in corning Pyrex glass but then stored it and shook it in an ldpe bottle the thin layer of clear fluid on top before shaking would suggest cinnamon oil to me but the the instant and stark reaction when mixed with nicotine in a pg carrier was weird. Do you have any thoughts on that? Would the Cinnamaldehyde cause that reaction maybe? I thought it was very strange but I am NOT a chemist nor have I taken chemistry for that matter.

At a glance, when considering whether cinnamaldehyde might react with nicotine, I wouldn't think it would via any sort or acid/base route. The aldehyde functional group just isn't all that acidic compared to say a carboxylic acid group where the electron withdrawing nature of the group gives rise to dissociation to create acidic character.

Without doing more work on this than I feel like doing at 5am, it should suffice that the observed behavior of these materials suggests that this particular eliquid formulation is problematic.

How does the flavoring behave in glass when mixed only with PG with no nicotine present? Does it mix fully with the PG and the weirdness only happens upon adding nicotine?

 

[Doug_xx2]

At a glance, when considering whether cinnamaldehyde might react with nicotine, I wouldn't think it would via any sort or acid/base route. The aldehyde functional group just isn't all that acidic compared to say a carboxylic acid group where the electron withdrawing nature of the group gives rise to dissociation to create acidic character.

Without doing more work on this than I feel like doing at 5am, it should suffice that the observed behavior of these materials suggests that this particular eliquid formulation is problematic.

How does the flavoring behave in glass when mixed only with PG with no nicotine present? Does it mix fully with the PG and the weirdness only happens upon adding nicotine?

OK first I want to apologize for forgetting it was early for the rest of the world. I really mean it I forget that about the time I am going to bed the rest of the world is getting out of bed and that not everyone else in the world is able to function or wants to function with as little sleep as I do on many occasions. In fact as I am typing this it is 8:24 am here and it is wayyy past my bedtime.

Second I would like to apologize for not being clear in my explanation. I do have communication issues from time to time as my brain demands answers to questions faster than I can figure out how to ask them and I have issues that make it difficult for me to spend hours mining the answers from the internet myself. Also I have never had much in the way of social grace by instinct so I come off way different than I intend to. (I can acquire it with after thought but I find many times that is too little too late.. )

Third I know I don't know you and I contacted you out of the blue to answer a question that for many is as easily answered as put it in glass or throw it away and get another flavor vendor. I expected an in depth answer to a question at the drop of a hat without a seconds thought as to what may be going on in your life at that moment. I am sorry it was thoughtless.

I am truly sorry.

I want to understand for multiple reasons

1) I feel like if I can get a better understanding of what is going wrong it will make me a smarter person (knowledge for knowledge's sake)

2) I really like this flavor and so does the two other people I let try it

3) If I fully understand it maybe I can avoid costly wasteful mistakes in the future


So if you feel like it and have the time I know I would appreciate knowing what has gone wrong.

I repeated the experiment without ever putting it in a bottle for the sake of putting pictures up on here to maybe better illustrate what I meant as I feel like maybe I didn't communicate it properly before.

Here they are

3 to 2 mix of pg to vg


Adding red hots flavoring


What I assume is cinnamon oil sitting on top before stirring because oil and water don't like to mix


Milky white color after stirring




I will attach the rest of the pics in the next post

 

[Doug_xx2]

How does the flavoring behave in glass when mixed only with PG with no nicotine present? Does it mix fully with the PG and the weirdness only happens upon adding nicotine?

Here I add nicotine in a pg base to bring the mixture up to a 10mg/ml level


It sits on top


After agitation with my spatula it goes clear and turns yellow


I will note that last time I brought the mix to a 12mg level and this time it was only to 10 and there was a difference in what happened. This time it took a lot more agitation to get it to change, it happened more slowly, and it does not seem to be staying clear while the first sample which is sealed in an ldpe bottle still looks clear to me.

I don't pretend to know why I was just hoping you did

Thank you for your time

 

[Lord_Fubar]

The TFA Red Hots (PG) is one of my favorite flavors to mix with. I ruined a couple of tanks before I knew about tank crackers and then thinking there isn't that much in the mix, wrong.

I have a few plastic tanks left and have to remember to be careful with the type of e-liquid I fill them with. No more plastic tanks for me in the future as I'll only be buying glass or metal tanks so I don't have to think about which e-liquids are cool with each tank.

Lots of good info in this thread before my post. Thanks.

 

[Doug_xx2]

and now after sitting here watching the beaker it has turned back completely milky white while the sample from the bottle remains clear?!?!?!

Now I am really confused