Higher nicotine levels - oh yes

[FACE MEAT]

Isn't nicotine toxic over concentrations of 56mg?

...edit: turns out it's around 0.5-1.0 mg / kg that's enough to kill an adult. Works out to be around 60mg concentration. I'd be very careful with your experiments if I was you.

Nicotine poisoning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have a hard time believing that 60mg could even come close to killing somebody, assuming they're not already at Death's door.

I switch between 18 and 24. Although 60mg would probably be a bit harsh for my liking, it's less than triple what I use regularly.

 

[Plumes.91]

less than triple? nicotine is a chemical substance that is psychoactive at milligram scale.
One person can vape 16mg with no problems, be severely sick at 18mg, and have cardiovascular problems at 20. 35mg of 2cb (a popular party substance) taken intranasally can turn things yellow, green, and blue. Fun. 40mg of 2cb can block ur entire field of vision and have you feeling as though you've become particals of space and time. Substances that are psychoactive at mg scale should not be fooled around with or taken lightly. 45mg of nicotine is already pushing it. Its been very controversial that some major e-cig companies are releasing 45mg cartomizers. For a cig-alike, it's going to effect most people rapidly and be STRONG... but hopefully, since it is just a 3.3 volt cig-alike, people wont get sick. at dosages above 45mg? If you use 45mg juice in an advanced personal vaporizer or with an advanced tank or coil system, your truly playing with fire. Truly.

Dont forget that nicotine is classified as a poison, more biotoxic than arsenic, a popular poison, at mg scale. Even spilling a bottle of 60mg juice over an intolerant person's hand would easily have them overdosing. A child would need to be brought to the hospital. Our bodies are chemically dependent of the nicotine and we've developed this dependence over years and years. Going above 45mg of nicotine is definitely pushing the limits of most any cigarette smokers tolerance.

 

[LucentShadow]

Isn't nicotine toxic over concentrations of 56mg?

...edit: turns out it's around 0.5-1.0 mg / kg that's enough to kill an adult. Works out to be around 60mg concentration. I'd be very careful with your experiments if I was you.

Nicotine poisoning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't like to be overly picky, but to say '60mg concentration' is incorrect, and misleading. 'Concentration' would refer to amount per unit, such as mg/ml, which is irrelevant without knowing how much is ingested in what amount of time. I would assume that they are talking about just a given amount, as in a single dose of 60mg.

Just one of my pet peeves... Carry on.

I have a hard time believing that 60mg could even come close to killing somebody, assuming they're not already at Death's door.

I switch between 18 and 24. Although 60mg would probably be a bit harsh for my liking, it's less than triple what I use regularly.

As pointed out above, I'm not sure if you're speaking of vaping 60mg/ml, or taking a 60mg dose. A single dose of 60mg of nicotine taken at once is sounds like it could kill half of test subjects, to me, especially if they are small subjects who have never used nicotine.

 

[TamJeff]

I went from 3 packs of Mboro mediums/day to the step 1 patch for a week and then onto blu-cigs, which are 16 or 18 mg. I was happy as heck to have that after a week off. But, the delivery system of the 808 type and the vapor production were what was lacking. Once I got to the 1300 mah ego types and LR cartos, figured out my sweet spot for throat hit, I was down to 12mg instantly. As long as there's a good throat hit, which it seems as if there is a throat hit memory that readjusts accordingly after a spell, all is good.

High performance hardware has become more important than nicotine amount. If a heavy smoker, anything less than two, ready (at least with non variable voltage types) devices of at least 1100 mah will not be consistent enough IMO. The hot spot off the fresh charge on larger capacity batteries drops slower, letting you get a more subtle drop in nic delivery over a much longer period of time.

 

[kabonk]

one of my first kits an E-9 came with 48mg cartos I vaped it non stop for about 20 mins while reading the forums and then I realized that I was over nic-ed I put it down and didn't want to vape for about 6 hours after that. the rest of my kits and juices came in the same day and i quickly moved to 36mg. I say what ever works for you without making you feel like you want to puke then go for it

 

[mrcoolbp]

less than triple? nicotine is a chemical substance that is psychoactive at milligram scale.
One person can vape 16mg with no problems, be severely sick at 18mg, and have cardiovascular problems at 20...

... If you use 45mg juice in an advanced personal vaporizer or with an advanced tank or coil system, your truly playing with fire. Truly.

Dont forget that nicotine is classified as a poison, more biotoxic than arsenic, a popular poison, at mg scale. Even spilling a bottle of 60mg juice over an intolerant person's hand would easily have them overdosing. A child would need to be brought to the hospital. Our bodies are chemically dependent of the nicotine and we've developed this dependence over years and years. Going above 45mg of nicotine is definitely pushing the limits of most any cigarette smokers tolerance.

Technically one ml of this 56mg/ml juice has enough nicotine to kill an average sized adult, let alone kids. I imagine if a 30ml bottle spilled around pets or children there is a very real possibility of death.

Please be safe people.

 

[tawraste]

hi everyone,
This thread was not started with an analysis of nicotine absorption etc in mind, but owing to the nature of some of the replies I feel that some science is needed in order to bring some rational to this thread. Nicotine is poisonous, and I do not want this thread to demonstrate a gung-ho attitude towards vaping. I have approached the subject strength with caution and this is a process that is informed and intelligent; and attempts to be scientific.
Here are some measurements of my intellicig kit:

Battery voltage: I have 3 batteries, measuring 3.57V, 3.63v, and 3.56v

Atomizer resistance:I have 2 atomizers measuring 3ohms (this one is dry, unused), 3.2ohms (this one is wet, in use)

Juice strength: intellicig strength confirmed at 45mg/ml. Here is their reply email to me:
Thank you very much for contacting us and I am extremely sorry for the confusion with our liquid strengths. What you are saying is correct and here is the information you require: 1.5% - 15mg/ml, 3.0% - 30mg/ml, 4.5% - 45mg/ml. I hope this information helps and if you have any more questions please give us a call on 01254 377670.

With best regards,
Intellicig Information

. New juice 52mg/ml stated on bottle

Temperature of atomizer: 40-65C
Source: Vegetable Glycerine Profile : DIY Juice - International Vapers Club
– therefore vapourization of eliquid is similar to steaming water that is not boiling. No atomizer is going to boil the eliquid as this would burn the person inhaling. Higher voltage vapourizers will therefore increase the ‘steaming’ of the eliquid over lower voltage vapourizers but by a relatively small amount is the scalding temperature is to be avoided.


Here are some figures for nicotine vapour:
Vapourization temperature of vg liquid: boiling point is 280C, poisonous acrolein created at 290C
Source: Vegetable Glycerine Profile : DIY Juice - International Vapers Club
if we heated the eliquid to boiling point we would be scalded and poisoned. Note that PG liquid boils at 100 degrees lower than VG bolstering the comparatively low temperature of most atomizers.

Vapourization temperature of nicotine: 247C
Source: Nicotine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It can be readily accepted that no PV is going to heat to 247C as again this will result in scalding. At best, even with a high voltage device, we are again steaming the eliquid and nicotine at a safe and low temperature.

Half life of nicotine: 2 hours
Source: Nicotine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This means that to hit the poisonous and possibly lethal level of 60mg we would need to get 60mg of nicotine into our bloodstream within 2 hours.

Amount of juice vapourized: unknown – assume 100% as the vapourizer reservoir runs dry

Absorption site: oral cavity
Source: Site of nicotine absorption from a vapo... [Eur J Clin Pharmacol. 2000] - PubMed - NCBI

Amount of juice absorbed: unknown, but actual test results can be seen here: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...3-blood-test-lab-results-nicotine-levels.html Please note that this gentleman is an ultramember of this very forum.
This gentleman states that he vaped 80-90mg in the days before the test.
He was driving for an hour and a half prior to the test and chain vaped for this time. As the half life is 2hrs this time period is a good figure.
1.5hours is 6.25% of 24.
6.25% of 90mg is 5.625mg
Let us assume 100% absorption.
His test results show by liquid chromatography-tandem mass spectrometry 13 Nanogram per milliliter [ng/ml] = 0.000013 Milligram per milliliter [mg/ml]
This means that by the most accurate scientific method of measurement available, the nicotine vaped by this man resulted in just 0.00023111111111111108% being present in his blood.
This is a low level, and I point to the rate of absorbtion here. The rate of absorption depends on the ph and ionized state of the nicotine in relation to the absorbtion site in question.
Source: (section 3) Nicotine Chemistry, Metabolism, Kinetics and Biomarkers
Nicotine is alkaline in nature, saliva leans toward being acidic, and if the nicotine is not absorbed before being swallowed after being deposited on the lining of the mouth it will reach the stomach with is very acidic.
As has been pointed out previously, nicotine is a psychoactive molecular compound of which small amounts are required for a detectable physical response.
The presence of the metabolites cotinine...247ng/ml and 3-oh-cotinine S/P....66ng/ml simply demonstrate that nicotine previously absorbed has been metabolized.

Conclusions:
Whilst the scientific evidence points to a low level of total nicotine absorbed into the body, let us create a safety net and say that 50% of the nicotine vaped makes it to the bloodstream. A little googling and searching on this forum will quickly show you that regardless of the method of analysis, scientific or not, this figure is ridiculously high.
Now lets do some maths.
I vape about 1mg a day. Lets use my new juice figure of 52mg/ml.
Using the figure of 0.00023111111111111108% derived from the blood test this means that 0.0001196mg made it into my blood.
Using the corrected figure of 50%, this means that 26mg made it into my blood.
Again, using the 50% figure to be safe, this means that I would need to vape 2ml in two hours of this 52mg/ml juice to get ill/die. This feels about right. I reckon I’d be quite ill based on the effects of 1ml over a waking day, which are intense, but still very pleasureable.

Now lets look at the 24mg/ml juice that most of you consider to be strong:
Consumption of this juice seems to be on average about 3ml a day. Thats 72mg.
Using the figure of 0.00023111111111111108% derived from the blood test this means that 0.0001656mg makes it into the blood.
Using the corrected figure of 50%, this means that 36mg makes it into the blood.
This means that you would need to consume at least 5ml in two hours of this strength liquid to reach the poisonous/lethal saturation point.

My point here is that we do not need any more posts about being careful. The point has been made in several posts already.
As far as the concern about new vapers reading this thread and going wild on 52mg/ml juice are concerned, I would like to point out the large yellow warnings that are on every page, and my own denial of responsibility in my original post. It’s simply not feasible to prevent all people who refuse to get informed and educated from doing ridiculous things. I’m afraid they are on their own.
As for you guys that point to a lower delivery from the cigalike, I would again point out that I have not only modded my cigalike which has definitely significantly improved it – mods are here: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/kr808d-1/417634-improving-intellicig-cigalike.html and the tech details are above; please try it and see for yourselves, but I have also tried this juice in my friend’s larger PV model that is very similar to what most vapers use.
I would also like to point to the impracticality of your devices having that much higher temperature out of your atomizers as detailed above.
I would also like to point out that I’m still alive, still healthy, still feeling well and vaping the hell out of my 5.2% as I type.
This post is not meant to upset anyone, please don’t take it as so. Hopefully it will stimulate some intelligent assessment of facts that are out there waiting to be found and will allow all of us to vape with the confidence of knowledge.

Kind regards, keep on vaping,

Tawraste

 

[lilmrsyeti]

The way I see it, you're a grown person who can make their own choices...I Vape between 24mg-30mg everyday...depends on how much Nic I put in different bottles..I make some batches stronger for beer drinking. Any who..my question is why would you be using such high ohms on such Low Voltage? Again though...what ever keeps you off real Cigs and is working for you, then by all means....

 

[Red_Bird]

A vape that works is what works. I wasn't able to make the switch to vaping until I started using 48mg/ml (4.8%) juice. That's what worked for me.

It's been a few years and I gradually moved down to my current 18mg juice, but without mixing my own and dropping 2mg at a time, I'm not sure I'd have been able to do it. My method involved taking a few 3ml bottles of juice to work with me. I generally vaped 4-6ml's at work. If I found I vaped less then 3ml during a workday, I dropped my Nic level 2mg. My vaping would shoot back up closer to 6ml during work. (Body over compensated I guess?) This wasn't a steady thing, but it did drop. I've been stuck at 18mg/ml for quite awhile and don't see any reason to push it. I wasn't unhappy at 48 and I started the whole drop-a-bit thing as an experiment.

Given you were able to make the switch at 45mg/ml it seems reasonable that mixing your own is the way to go.

Dam, Hoosier.

You started vaping 48 mg nic? Wow, u are one hardcore .... I'll say.

I smoked 30 + yrs myself. Was up to 2 PAD the last few yrs, I vaped 24 or 18 mg nic @ first.....I haven't been satisfied vaping much less 10 months later, I need a minimum of 15 mg to stay clean off cigs. But so far so good. No cigs in 10 months.

 

[Red_Bird]

The way I see it, you're a grown person who can make their own choices...I Vape between 24mg-30mg everyday...depends on how much Nic I put in different bottles..I make some batches stronger for beer drinking. Any who..my question is why would you be using such high ohms on such Low Voltage? Again though...what ever keeps you off real Cigs and is working for you, then by all means....

Try a genesis atty when beer drinking, nice 1.1 ohm coil made of xc-116 ceramic rope (3 snug wraps of 30 ga. kanthal)....clouds galore, hits like a hammer on a simple mech mod.

 

[tawraste]

The reason I have the ohmage atomizer and batteries that I do is because thats how the kit came. My next move is to get onto a 808d-1 kit on payday so that I can benefit from a higher voltage battery and a larger juice reservoir. Haven't wanted to change up until now, but intellicig discontinued some accessories I like and so I started looking for an alternative.

 

[CES]

It might be helpful to look at the measurements... the dose makes the poison.

45mg/ml = 4.5% (still higher than i could tolerate but nowhere near lethal)

the wikipedia lethal dosage is estimated 60mg/kg (ETA- correction- that 60mg/kg is data from rodent studies- the estimate for people is lower at 5mg/kg)

160 lbs= 72 kg

So, it would take somewhere near 4320mg 360(60 5mgx72kg) for a lethal dose. Someone would need to vape around 100 8 ml of 45 mg/ml within an hour or two.

However, a person can get very ill way before getting to a lethal dose. It's probably better to go as low as one can tolerate, just on general principles, and to be very careful with liquids containing nicotine.

Acute toxicity In experimental animals, the dose of nicotine which is lethal to 50 % of the animals (LD50) varies widely, depending on the route of administration and the species used. The intravenous (i.v.) LD50 dose of nicotine in mice is 7.1 mg kg-1 body weight (22). By direct i.v. administration the LD50 to rats was determined to 1 mg kg-1 (23). The intraperitoneal (i.p.) LD50 values for nicotine in mice and rats have been found to be 5.9 mg kg-1 and 14.6 mg kg-1, respectively (22). The oral LD50 dose for nicotine in rats is 50 mg kg-1 to 60 mg kg-1 (24). The wide variation in sensitivity to the toxic effects of nicotine in rodents appears to be genetically determined (25). Dermal acute toxicity (LD50) in rabbits is 140 mg kg-1 (26). In interpreting animal toxicity data it is important to recognise that the route of administration is an important determinant of toxicity. Rapid i.v. injections result in the highest blood and brain concentrations and produce toxicity at the lowest doses. In contrast, oral or i.p. administration require higher doses to produce toxicity. This is due in part to pre-systemic (“first pass”) metabolism of nicotine whereby, after absorption into the portal venous circulation, nicotine is metabolised by the liver before it reaches the systemic venous circulation. Probable oral lethal dose in humans is less than 5 mg kg-1 or a taste (less than 7 drops) for a 70 kg person (27). It may be assumed that ingestion of 40 mg to 60 mg of nicotine is lethal to humans (27).No inhalation toxicity data are available on which to base an immediately dangerous to life or health concentration (IDLH) for nicotine. Therefore, the revised IDLH for nicotine is 5 mg m-3 based on acute oral toxicity data in humans and animals (28).

Brčić Karačonji I. FACTS ABOUT NICOTINE TOXICITY 363
Arh Hig Rada Toksikol 2005;56:363-371 2005

 

[tawraste]

hi,
apologies for the correction, but it is 60mg overall, not per kilo. the toxicology section on the wiki page has the details and is quoted from reference 6:
"7.2 Toxicity
7.2.1 Human data
7.2.1.1 Adults
The mean lethal dose has been estimated to be 30
to 60 mg (0.5-1.0 mg/kg) (Gosselin, 1988).
7.2.1.2 Children
The lethal dose is considered to be about 10 mg
of nicotine (Arena, 1974)."

regards,
tawraste

edit: liquid on skin is very dangerous because of the much higher absorption rate of skin over mucal membrane.

 

[Hoosier]

The part about boiling is a bit misleading. It only takes 0.8 amps to have 30ga. nichrome reach over 200C and many mass produced coils are smaller than 30ga. so need less current to produce the same temps. Boiling is happening, but it's not a rolling or boiler type boil. The difference in mass between the coil and the juice causes a self regulating kind of thing as a small part of the mass is vaporized which actually drives the coil temp down and allows the juice to collapse back on the coil. The average temp of the system stays lower but if you could measure and chart the temp at the coil's surface it would be a spikey thing that shoots up and shoots down to make the average temp.

Or think of it another way, we are inhaling something and it's not all liquid. Changing state from a liquid to a gas takes energy, the coil heat in our case, and if a mass of liquid is undergoing this transition most folks call it boiling. Just like a pot of water on the stove is kinda' like what goes on inside a steam boiler, what goes on inside our cartos/clearos/attys is kinda' like what goes on with the pot of water on the stove. Passing your hand through the vapor produced from a steam boiler will destroy flesh on the hand while passing your hand through the vapor produced from pot of boiling water will slightly warm the surface of the hand but passing your hand through the vapor produced from a PV will not have a noticeable warming.

That is all silly technical speak, but what it means to the average vaper is that just before your clearo/carto/atty gets too dry it will have maximum vapor production. It's one of those annoying little quirks of vaping and you can blame that quirk on science. Pitch coated sticks for torches are on the left and pitchforks are on the right. Don't light your torch until you have a pitchfork. We want an orderly mob this time...

 

[Hoosier]

Dam, Hoosier.

You started vaping 48 mg nic? Wow, u are one hardcore .... I'll say.

I smoked 30 + yrs myself. Was up to 2 PAD the last few yrs, I vaped 24 or 18 mg nic @ first.....I haven't been satisfied vaping much less 10 months later, I need a minimum of 15 mg to stay clean off cigs. But so far so good. No cigs in 10 months.

Yeah, I don't know if it was because of lungs being coated and that hindered nicotine absorption or if it was because my cigarette of choice would make most smokers dizzy and ill if they attempted to smoke one of mine. Possibly a combination of both? It did mean that people would only bum one cigarette off me and then refuse even an offer in the future. New guys are work were often directed to me to bum a smoke by those who had bummed one before. It became like a hazing thing for new workers who smoked.

Didn't think of it as hardcore at the time. Just trying to find a way to get satisfaction from my vape. Nicotine was the first step, but flavor was the key.

 

[CES]

Corrected

 

[DeeDee1234]

Ok, I'll bite... WHat the heck kinda cigs were you smoking Hoosier?

 

[Red_Bird]

Had to be a Pall Mall non filter.....stole one of my Moms one morning at age 11.....took the alley to my Church at 6:30 am to serve morning mass as an altar boy....lit that thing up.....my first buzz....staggered for about 50 feet but eventually felt better (prolly reeked in my robes after changing clothes in the vestibule at church)

 

[Hoosier]

Ok, I'll bite... WHat the heck kinda cigs were you smoking Hoosier?

Just the good ones. American Spirit Non-Filters. Good flavor and if you set them down, they put themselves out like a cigar. (That was before the gunk was added to the paper per government decree.) Quite a few folks compared them to cigars, but I think that means they never had a good cigar. And, yes, I often inhaled cigar smoke too, but I've also been known to swallow spit while chewing tobacco so I've always been a bit odd.

I like everything about tobacco except for bedding the seeds and staking the leaves. That work always sucked. Transplanting and topping wasn't too bad though. Clearing the barn for hanging was fun stuff. I could do that everyday.

 

[Hoosier]

Had to be a Pall Mall non filter.....

Not the worst, but weak and airy...