Honest question. is vaping bad for you/ your lungs?

[VNeil]

VNeil, I don't know why you insist on thinking I'm an ANTZ supporter. vaping took my cigarettes away in a relatively short period of time 6 1/2 years ago right after joining ECF. I'm a vapor proponent from the word go. I haven't smoked a cigarette since I quit.

That doesn't mean I vape blindly. We quit smoking for harm reduction. As with anything else, I want to know the pros and cons. After reading the cons, I'm still vaping. I just try to inhale infrequently. to make my lungs last as long as the rest of my body. I vape at 10W to prevent acrolein formation. I do as Rolygate suggests and I avoid inhaling deeply and often. Still, in the 2000 some odd puffs I vape daily, I probably inhale 1/2 of those in some manner. It's one reason I look for testing to see what's going into my lungs since I quit smoking tobacco.

Facts are facts. We can't hide from the truth. If you doubt the spectrometer testing I posted, I'd be glad to see how they rigged the test to make vaping produce byproducts.

Was any vaper actually harmed in that spectrometer test? No. That study is an ANTZ study trying desperately to show evidence of harm when all the studies of actual people vaping show no harm at all. I'm sorry, I'm tired of lab rats being asphyxiated in closed containers with eliquid compounds, and vape gear being misused and abused to find trace elements of bad stuff, and lung tissue being killed off in petri dishes. I didn't say you are ANTZ, I said you are heavily propagandize by them, including all the junk science. Find me the piles of bodies of dead vapers and I'll take note.

As far as Rolygate, I realize this is blasphemy but really, he is just one more guy sitting on a rock thinking about what makes sense to him. Show me his technical and scientific credentials and his scientific studies he used to come to his conclusions as to how you should or should not vape. He, like most people here, are convinced, without a shred of evidence, that "something must be wrong with that stuff". And just because you (or Rolygate) believe vaping is "harm reduction" (a term I absolutely detest) does not mean there is any harm at all. You can sit on your rock and believe what you want but it does not make it true. Galileo proved that 500 years ago, why is everyone still sitting on that rock and making stuff up as they go along?

 

[VNeil]

Today we have another guy sitting on a chair (?) who decided that vaping a priory is 100% harmless. We should believe him, I suppose...

I expected you to come in on this and misrepresent what I said, because you have no other defense. I did not say vaping is 100% harmless. I said there is no evidence that it is not harmless ( a FACT) and also that it is just as likely to prove to be healthful as harmful (in terms of what could be some Ultimate Truth), and in FACT, there is some evidence it is a positive net benefit, that I already pointed out

Please stop misrepresenting me in these arguments, it is not the first time you have done so. If you want to believe "there is something wrong with vaping", have at it. But please, at least have an honest discussion about your beliefs devoid of any facts.

 

[Alien Traveler]

I expected you to come in on this and misrepresent what I said, because you have no other defense. I did not say vaping is 100% harmless. I said there is no evidence that it is not harmless ( a FACT) and also that it is just as likely to prove to be healthful as harmful (in terms of what could be some Ultimate Truth), and in FACT, there is some evidence it is a positive net benefit, that I already pointed out

Please stop misrepresenting me in these arguments, it is not the first time you have done so. If you want to believe "there is something wrong with vaping", have at it. But please, at least have an honest discussion about your beliefs devoid of any facts.

Your belief is based on "nobody proved it is harmful".
My belief is based on "nobody proved it is harmless".
Makes not difference for a person who already own a belief.
Makes difference when giving advise to those who is asking for advice.

"Is is deep enough under this rock to dive from it?"
Two possible answers:
"Nobody proved it is not deep enough"
"Nobody proved it is deep enough"
See the difference?

 

[VNeil]

Your belief is based on "nobody proved it is harmful".
My belief is based on "nobody proved it is harmless".
Makes not difference for a person who already own a belief.
Makes difference when giving advise to those who is asking for advice.

"Is is deep enough under this rock to dive from it?"
Two possible answers:
"Nobody proved it is not deep enough"
"Nobody proved it is deep enough"
See the difference?

You are arguing the standard ANTZ mantra:

- we just don't know (that it is proved to be harmless)
- I dare you to prove a negative

Now, I dare you to prove that green beans do not cause colon cancer. Show me the studies. There aren't any and there never will be any because you will never find a cohort that has never consumed green beans. In fact, we eat hundreds of different things all our lives, none of which has been held to the standard of "nobody has proved it is harmless"....

The government demands that niacin be added to our foodstuffs. Where are the 40 year long term studies of the effects of that artificial lab produced substance that prove it harmless? After all, it is a substitute for nicotine, simply because, hey, we can't acknowledge that without a steady diet of nicotine you get pellagra and look like the wolf man.

Generally Recognized As Safe means we really just don't know. It specifically does NOT mean "it is proved harmless". We fed someone green beans for a couple months and nothing bad happened. That is the extent of GRAS. GRAS does NOT mean "we proved it harmless"

We go through life not holding hundreds of things we ingest, and other things we expose ourselves to (cell phones, wireless radio emmissions, powerlines... the list is endless) and no one argues "but prove all this stuff is harmless"

It is only vaping, uniquely vaping, that is held to that standard, even in this forum of supposedly often intelligent and well educated people. Why is that?

Answer: it's all about the propaganda. But the very definition of propaganda is that those most affected will never admit they are propagandized, so I exit this useless discussion as gracefully as possible.

You may now have the last word as you defend to the death those ANTZ talking points that could be, but are never leveled at everything else we ingest and expose ourselves to.

 

[Alien Traveler]

You are arguing the standard ANTZ mantra:

Godwin's law: if an online discussion goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Hitler or Nazism.
If we replace "Hitler or Nazism" with "ANTZ", can we name it "ECF law"?

As I see it, this discussion went already for too long.

 

[GBalkam]

Granted, air is only about 21% Oxygen but fog is NOT a vapor of PG/VG/flavoring/nicotine.

So what is it then, or are you just talking out your ...?

 

[Alien Traveler]

Godwin's law: if an online discussion goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Hitler or Nazism.
If we replace "Hitler or Nazism" with "ANTZ", can we name it "ECF law"?

As I see it, this discussion went already for too long.

EDIT: when giving advice, especially advice based on belief, it is better be safe than sorry. When sorting things for yourself - everybody welcome to apply his beliefs in full strength.

 

[VNeil]

Godwin's law: if an online discussion goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Hitler or Nazism.
If we replace "Hitler or Nazism" with "ANTZ", can we name it "ECF law"?

As I see it, this discussion went already for too long.

When engaged in a losing argument, always ignore the irrefutable evidence set before you. In this case, you insist on ignoring my one simple question to you:

Why do you hold vaping to an impossibly high standard that nothing else we ingest is held to?

Forget the ANTZ red herring. Just answer the question. You can't can you?

 

[GBalkam]

As to the OP..
Stay clear of nicotine. Stick to pure juice ... flavor, pg,vg PERIOD. I know popcorn lung is a thing, but i've never found a forum where anyone ever got it from vaping "good" juice. I suppose you could on a DIY juice if you had like 80% flavoring.. but i can't see it actually happening in the real world.
Negative effects: PG and to a lesser extent VG can be a slight lung irritant. I don't see it. I vape steady and only a slight cough when i take too big a hit. Nothing at all when I am not vaping.
Now, a few facts to take as you wish. I wont say they are benefits though.
PG is an antibacterial. So you are less likely to catch colds, bacterial pneumonia, lung infections, and can help clear up existing infection. (I had a touch of pneumonia that lingered for 2 yrs or damage from previous pneumonia, that cleared up when i stopped smoking, started vaping... which was the cause? Not 100% sure.. so I won't say it is a "benefit")
Cloud chasing will increase your lung capacity, by definition, but you can do the same thing without vaping, so not a benefit.. *You do a full exhale, bending over, then full inhale while arching your back, to fill up your lungs to the max.. do this enough and your lung volume will increase.. vape or no vape.* I suppose a benefit would be you look less stupid doing this while blowing clouds, than say.. just standing at a bus stop and randomly bending over.. lol IMO anyway.

 

[Alien Traveler]

When engaged in a losing argument, always ignore the irrefutable evidence set before you. In this case, you insist on ignoring my one simple question to you:

Why do you hold vaping to an impossibly high standard that nothing else we ingest is held to?

Forget the ANTZ red herring. Just answer the question. You can't can you?

What question? Incorrectly put one?

I have nothing against ingesting juice (just in small doses, not to have nicotine poisoning). Stomach is tough, it will accept it.
Inhaling - it's completely different story. It was shown for quite a few substances that it is much easier to harm lungs than stomach. Again: it's better to be safe than sorry.

 

[AzPlumber]

So what is it then, or are you just talking out your ...?

Well that was rude. If you read the post I was replying to you'll hopefully have a better understanding that the fog in discussion is actual fog not electronic cigarette vapor.

 

[VNeil]

What question? Incorrectly put one?

I have nothing against ingesting juice (just in small doses, not to have nicotine poisoning). Stomach is tough, it will accept it.
Inhaling - it's completely different story. It was shown for quite a few substances that it is much easier to harm lungs than stomach. Again: it's better to be safe than sorry.

You continue to FAIL to answer my question. Because you have no basis for your belief other than I Dare you to prove a negative. You also ignore much research finding no known harm.

 

[GBalkam]

What question? Incorrectly put one?

I have nothing against ingesting juice (just in small doses, not to have nicotine poisoning). Stomach is tough, it will accept it.
Inhaling - it's completely different story. It was shown for quite a few substances that it is much easier to harm lungs than stomach. Again: it's better to be safe than sorry.

So do you put a filter mask on your baby when you change his diaper and apply baby powder? Talc is a lung irritant too. Completely harmless in amounts that small, but even in higher amounts, still harmless as most gets coughed or sneezed out within a couple hours.
You seem to be under them impression that everything that goes into your lungs stays there, like tar from a cigarette. PG/VG get exhaled, trapped in mucous and coughed out, or absorbed into the blood stream (just like they do in the stomach) and eliminated in waste. Which is why I state use only PURE juice that you know the ingredients. pharma grade pg, pharma grade vg, fda approved flavors, nicotine or no nicotine, and 1 other know ingredient, usually to adjust viscosity. (the thickness of the liquid)
Trust this.. I checked this all out before laying a half months cigarette budget on the counter for my first vape kit. Otherwise, I would have just switched to smoking weed years ago.. but why trade one devil for another?

 

[Bob Chill]

The circular argument is getting old. Nobody can definitively state the level of harm if any and it probably won't happen for many years. Throw in all the different styles of vaping and it's even more complicated. In its entirety around the world, I don't think that vaping is 100% harmless. But my opinion means squat. I do make personal choices based on my opinion and what little research we have available. And by research I mean long term implications.

I think we can all agree as we swim in the unknowns is that vaping unflavored is the safest choice if there is even something to worry about. Which we don't know either way.

 

[VNeil]

So do you put a filter mask on your baby when you change his diaper and apply baby powder? Talc is a lung irritant too. Completely harmless in amounts that small, but even in higher amounts, still harmless as most gets coughed or sneezed out within a couple hours.
You seem to be under them impression that everything that goes into your lungs stays there, like tar from a cigarette. PG/VG get exhaled, trapped in mucous and coughed out, or absorbed into the blood stream (just like they do in the stomach) and eliminated in waste. Which is why I state use only PURE juice that you know the ingredients. pharma grade pg, pharma grade vg, fda approved flavors, nicotine or no nicotine, and 1 other know ingredient, usually to adjust viscosity. (the thickness of the liquid)
Trust this.. I checked this all out before laying a half months cigarette budget on the counter for my first vape kit. Otherwise, I would have just switched to smoking weed years ago.. but why trade one devil for another?

I saw a TV ad recently by a lawyer trolling for talc related injuries....

 

[Alien Traveler]

The circular argument is getting old. Nobody can definitively state the level of harm if any and it probably won't happen for many years. Throw in all the different styles of vaping and it's even more complicated. In its entirety around the world, I don't think that vaping is 100% harmless. But my opinion means squat. I do make personal choices based on my opinion and what little research we have available. And by research I mean long term implications.

I think we can all agree as we swim in the unknowns is that vaping unflavored is the safest choice if there is even something to worry about. Which we don't know either way.

Exactly.

 

[GBalkam]

Well that was rude. If you read the post I was replying to you'll hopefully have a better understanding that the fog in discussion is actual fog not electronic cigarette vapor.

no rude was posting a claim with nothing to back it up. How exactly do you define fog? Are you speaking strictly of water vapor caused by a warm air mass encountering a colder air mass or surface, such as air over a pond? Or what is created when a kettle full of water boils? Or are you talking about airborn compounds in gaseous form. Strictly speaking, fog can only be formed by a warm air mass encountering a colder air mass. Since strictly speaking, fog is in fact a weather condition, just like rain or snow.
Now since we understand, that by fog in this case you meant vapor from e-juice, and since we know the ingredients in e-juice, I challenged you, to list your sources to back up your claim.

 

[Alien Traveler]

no rude was posting a claim with nothing to back it up. How exactly do you define fog? Are you speaking strictly of water vapor caused by a warm air mass encountering a colder air mass or surface, such as air over a pond? Or what is created when a kettle full of water boils? Or are you talking about airborn compounds in gaseous form. Strictly speaking, fog can only be formed by a warm air mass encountering a colder air mass. Since strictly speaking, fog is in fact a weather condition, just like rain or snow.
Now since we understand, that by fog in this case you meant vapor from e-juice, and since we know the ingredients in e-juice, I challenged you, to list your sources to back up your claim.

What are you talking about?

 

[VNeil]

The fact is that if Tobacco Control had not chose to go to war with vaping it would be classed as GRAS because there is more research and a longer history of use than many GRAS products....

 

[GBalkam]

LOL I'm going to shush now. I think some members have read copies of what I send to politicians and so called Health officials.. And what i posted here.. well is pretty mild.