Horrible BBC report blames UK man's death on e-cigs!

[leaford]

For those who, like me, usually skip over the announcements on the top of the main forum page, here's on all of us should see.

A UK man died, and a doctor is blaming his e-cigs instead of his lifetime smoking habit. And those supposed paragons of journalism at BBC reported it not only uncritically, but heavily slanted as an anti-e-cig scare piece.



This is the first EVER reported death, or even any harm at all, to have been attributed to e-cigs. And from the facts presented, that attribution is wrong, wrong, WRONG. And probably motivated by the doctor's ideological opposition to nicotine use in any form.


Not that will stop the anti-e-cig forces (should we just go ahead and call them pro-cigarette forces? ) from using it against us. Denialists (and I do think the opposition to e-cigs qualifies as a denialist movement) NEVER abandon an argument, even when proven wrong again and again. They do not argue honestly. Ever.

I doubt it will do any good unless you are a UK resident, but there's an official Complaint to the BBC thread here: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...74633-official-complaint-bbc.html#post2918122

If anyone lurking in my subforum IS a UK resident, please, please, PLEASE join in the complaint. And if anyone can find more substantial info on this, please share it.

 

[spek]

They even took the time to show a syringe being used to fill a carto. What does that look like to random viewers with no knowledge of e-cigs? Syringe's in this case are obviously not for injecting the body, but they are a strong symbol of drug use that the producers chose to show with almost no context. Also, the doctor claims there is oil in eliquid? Are pg and vg considered an oil?

 

[leaford]

No, and no e-liquids contain oil. Oil doesn't vaporize, it will clog your atomizer. Or cartomizer.

 

[leaford]

Here's a short print version: BBC News - Gateshead doctor calls for research into e-cigarettes

They again uncritically repeat the doctor's utterly BS claims: "Dr Allcock said that the brand Mr Miller had been using seemed to involve a mixture of nicotine and some oil."

 

[MichelleDen]

Look at that wife.. would she go after the tobacco companies if he had just continued to smoke until he died?? I say do investigate, but keep .......n facts straight. And you CANT bann ecigs even if he died from it... Then youd have to bann both smoking and alcohol too..

 

[analog]

Leaford, IF they are wrong, then you are right in your outrage. But without knowing what this guy was smoking, is it at all possible he was vaping an oil, and did get lipoid pneumonia? Example, say this guy for some reason used mineral oil instead of pg or vg to mix his own? Now I don't know, maybe you do. Can you categorically say that it's impossible to vape an oil enough to cause this problem? I know he shouldn't have been vaping an oil, but at this point do we have any idea that he wasn't?

Regardless, the patient did have lipoid pneumonia. He didn't get that from years of smoking did he? Well what then, he doesn't look like he works in an oil field, or practice fire breathing. Mineral oil as laxative is a possibility, but that should be easily confirmed. The ecig seems a reasonable place to start looking to me if the patient had no other known exposure to oils.

Now, the bbc did have a scare slant, an anti vaping slant, and portrayed the ecig industry as shady and dogmatic. But their bad reporting doesn't completely rule out ecig related problems so far as I can see.
This link:
Lipoid Pneumonia: A Silent Complication of Mineral Oil Aspiration -- Bandla et al. 103 (2): e19 -- Pediatrics
shows it should be very easy to tell if his disorder was endogenous or exogenous. If it is exogenous, then the question is where did the oil come from. GC testing of the fluid in his lungs, and comparing that to his e-juice should readily identify what happened. Until then, can we really tell ourselves that vaping had nothing at all to do with this man's condition? Without knowing his habits, his juices, his equipments? I hope that this guy wasn't vaping something he shouldn't have been to prevent hysterical attacks on us, but I think we'll just have to wait and see what really happened to him.

 

[leaford]

Analog, you are asking all the right skeptical questions, and I applaud that. We should always question our own certainty and biases, because we are all susceptible to errors in reasoning, especially where our cherished beliefs and emotions are concerned.

And I must admit I could be wrong. But all the evidence I've seen is that oil just plain will not work in e-cigs. It doesn't mix with Vg or PG, and it does not vaporize (at least not at the temperature range of e-cig attys). That's why DIY liquid homebrewers have to avoid oil based flavors. I made that mistake a few times, and the result was alwas the same. A dead, clogged atomizer. Irrespective of model.

It. Just. Doesn't. Work.

At least according to all available evidence to me.

 

[2xchapter]

leaford what about cinnabomb eliquid from vaporbomb? it states it contains some oil

 

[twoskinsoneman]

For my part even if he was vaping straight PG I'm not 100% positive (from the reading I've done) that this is safe.
I do it because I don't want to smoke any more... But when I recommend vaping to others (which I do) I don't claim that it is proven safer than smoking... Even though I think it is... Just that I suspect it may be. We may find out in 5 years that the long term inhalation of vaporized PG in the lungs is very bad... We will just have to wait and roll the dice.

 

[leaford]

Hmm cinnamon oil is a bit different from vegetable oils, mineral oils etc, but I suppose it is an oil. So, counter example noted, but I don't think that's what the Doc was refering to.

For one thing, there was no mention of any actual analysis. And without that, there's no way he could have known about minute amounts of flavoring oil.

So his claim is not about traces. He said that it was "a mixture of nicotine and some oil" which seems to me to be claiming the base of the liquid was "some oil," not PG or VG. Which, as I've said, just doesn't work as anything but an atomizer killer.

Of course, to give him a little benefit of the doubt, I suppose he might have just been guessing it's an oil because PG and VG both feel oily to the touch. Either way, lie or wrong guess, he should not have made the claim without verifying it.

And, the reporter should not have just accepted that characterization without asking the doc to show some verification that it was in fact oil. Since that's the central claim which ties e-cigs to the death, not requiring or giving any kind of verification was iresponsible, to say the least, by both parties.

 

[shooter59]

To the best of my limited knowledge, the following are the ingredients in the juices that I have seen advertised or consumed. I'm not seeing anything that is any worse for us than products we already consume, that have no warnings or concerns.

Also, if the juice he was vaping DID have oil in it could it have been a DIY combo that he created himself???

Just my .

VG -Food-grade vegetable glycerin is 99.7% pure, with the remaining 0.3% being water. It has a sweet taste, but is metabolized differently than sugar and does not raise blood sugar levels. Glycerin is used in foods marketed as being low in carbohydrates to keep them sweet and moist. It also does not contribute to bacterial tooth decay.

PG - The acute oral toxicity of propylene glycol is very low, and large quantities are required to cause perceptible health damage in humans; propylene glycol is metabolized in the human body into pyruvic acid (a normal part of the glucose-metabolism process, readily converted to energy), acetic acid (handled by ethanol-metabolism), lactic acid (a normal acid generally abundant during digestion),[9] and propionaldehyde.[10][11] Serious toxicity generally occurs only at plasma concentrations over 1 g/L, which requires extremely high intake over a relatively short period of time.[12] It would be nearly impossible to reach toxic levels by consuming foods or supplements, which contain at most 1 g/kg of PG.

(definitions pulled from online Wiki.)

Distilled Water

Flavoring

Liquid Nicotine

 

[Gardner808]

Cinnamon oil should be a natural oil expressed from the bark of certain trees. It should not contain mineral oil, which is a by product of petroleum production.

 

[leaford]

Just that I suspect it may be. We may find out in 5 years that the long term inhalation of vaporized PG in the lungs is very bad... We will just have to wait and roll the dice.

Well, you can take comfort in what we DO know. We do know PG itself is safe to inhale. It's used in vaporized, inhaled form on a regular basis for extended periods of time by a significant population already. Asthmatics. It's used in asthma inhalers, as well as being used to deliver medicine to patients with more serious lung diseases, like COPD, and even to deliver meds to lung transplant patients. They use it for the same reasons we do: It is non toxic. It is chemically inert, so it will not react with body chemistry or other substances in our body like meds. It is readily metabolized by our body and breaks down into normal metabolic products, lactic and phyrruvic (sp?) acids, which gets expelled naturally (hint it goes out with the beer). And, of course, because it vaporizes relatively easily and serves as an efficient carrier for other substances.

And besides being safe and harmless enough for asthmatics, COPD patients, and even lung transplant patients, it may actually be ever so slightly beneficial, because it is a known and proven airborn antiseptic. It kills germs in the air in amounts as small as one part per million.

And as for nicotine, we have all the studies done on inhaled smokeless nicotine from NRT nicotine inhalers.

So the only possible source of concern would be the flavors. And as a community, we've done a pretty good job of keeping an eye on those, and crying foul when any of them appear to be a possible risk, like diacetyl.

That's still too big an unknown, of course, and that's why we DO need those long term studies. But for me at least, I'm pretty satisfied knowing that the only substances of POSSIBLE harm at least do not have any KNOWN risks, and are present in the smallest quantities of all the ingredients, while the vast majority of the liquid is composed of demonstrably safe substances.

Oh, wait there is ONE more. VG. That's a bigger unknown than PG as an inhaled substance. And at too high a temperature acrolyn can be produced, wich is seriously not good. But, even in the worst conditions, I don't think any model gets that hot. (Although I'm more than willing to be corrected if anyone knows different) And I believe VG is similarly non reactive like PG, and is absorbed and processed by the body like PG, although I don't know its metabolic byproducts.

I guess maybe VG is a bit of an unknown after all, at least to me. Soooo, why do you guys like your VG blends again?

 

[leaford]

To the best of my limited knowledge, the following are the ingredients in the juices that I have seen advertised or consumed. I'm not seeing anything that is any worse for us than products we already consume, that have no warnings or concerns.

Also, if the juice he was vaping DID have oil in it could it have been a DIY combo that he created himself???

Just my .

VG -Food-grade vegetable glycerin is 99.7% pure, with the remaining 0.3% being water. It has a sweet taste, but is metabolized differently than sugar and does not raise blood sugar levels. Glycerin is used in foods marketed as being low in carbohydrates to keep them sweet and moist. It also does not contribute to bacterial tooth decay.

PG - The acute oral toxicity of propylene glycol is very low, and large quantities are required to cause perceptible health damage in humans; propylene glycol is metabolized in the human body into pyruvic acid (a normal part of the glucose-metabolism process, readily converted to energy), acetic acid (handled by ethanol-metabolism), lactic acid (a normal acid generally abundant during digestion),[9] and propionaldehyde.[10][11] Serious toxicity generally occurs only at plasma concentrations over 1 g/L, which requires extremely high intake over a relatively short period of time.[12] It would be nearly impossible to reach toxic levels by consuming foods or supplements, which contain at most 1 g/kg of PG.

(definitions pulled from online Wiki.)

Distilled Water

Flavoring

Liquid Nicotine

Great info, thanks!

 

[starsong]

One thing that bothered me was at the end of the report, she says The Electronic Cigarette Trade Association gave a detailed statement.... and nowhere in their statement did they correct the error about them containing oils - which is what the doctor is saying led to the death.

Their statement just came off as defensive, and the omission about no oils then seems like agreeing that there is oil. That was their big chance to set the record straight and they dropped the ball. They could have said that commercially made ones don't contain oil, but what people do on their own is their own responsibility (if indeed he was doing some home brew containing an oil).

 

[shooter59]

I also ran into a group called the National Vapers Club. I'm sure some of you are aware of it. - National Vapers Club - Meeting Place for lovers of e-cigarettes, personal vaporizers and all things "fog" producing!

But for us newbies I guess it can't hurt to bring it up.

It is free to join, they have multiple newsletters you can sign up for, and there is a TON of good info.

They also have petitions you can sign to help stop the bans that are already in progress.

I just think it is prudent for all of us to be a member of any group we can to help protect our rights as vapers, because you know that this is just going to add fuel to the fire that "big brother" here in the states is trying to get started.

 

[pmos69]

Well, you can take comfort in what we DO know. We do know PG itself is safe to inhale. It's used in vaporized, inhaled form on a regular basis for extended periods of time by a significant population already. Asthmatics. It's used in asthma inhalers, as well as being used to deliver medicine to patients with more serious lung diseases, like COPD, and even to deliver meds to lung transplant patients. They use it for the same reasons we do: It is non toxic. It is chemically inert, so it will not react with body chemistry or other substances in our body like meds. It is readily metabolized by our body and breaks down into normal metabolic products, lactic and phyrruvic (sp?) acids, which gets expelled naturally (hint it goes out with the beer). And, of course, because it vaporizes relatively easily and serves as an efficient carrier for other substances.

And besides being safe and harmless enough for asthmatics, COPD patients, and even lung transplant patients, it may actually be ever so slightly beneficial, because it is a known and proven airborn antiseptic. It kills germs in the air in amounts as small as one part per million.

And as for nicotine, we have all the studies done on inhaled smokeless nicotine from NRT nicotine inhalers.

So the only possible source of concern would be the flavors. And as a community, we've done a pretty good job of keeping an eye on those, and crying foul when any of them appear to be a possible risk, like diacetyl.

That's still too big an unknown, of course, and that's why we DO need those long term studies. But for me at least, I'm pretty satisfied knowing that the only substances of POSSIBLE harm at least do not have any KNOWN risks, and are present in the smallest quantities of all the ingredients, while the vast majority of the liquid is composed of demonstrably safe substances.

Oh, wait there is ONE more. VG. That's a bigger unknown than PG as an inhaled substance. And at too high a temperature acrolyn can be produced, wich is seriously not good. But, even in the worst conditions, I don't think any model gets that hot. (Although I'm more than willing to be corrected if anyone knows different) And I believe VG is similarly non reactive like PG, and is absorbed and processed by the body like PG, although I don't know its metabolic byproducts.

I guess maybe VG is a bit of an unknown after all, at least to me. Soooo, why do you guys like your VG blends again?

In that aspect VG might have more hidden dangers than PG because both it has a higher boiling point (290º C) and it actually decomposes to acrolyn at a lower temperature than that (280ºC). It's even facilitated by the presence of metal (the coil).
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/experiments-equipment/14359-decomposition-vg-acrolein.html

On the other hand, the presence of a certain amount of PG in the e-liquid (instead of pure VG) will make the boiling point of the liquid go down, preventing such high temperatures. PG has a lower boiling point (188ºC). The presence of water has the same effect to an even greater degree.

 

[Zeroi]

I think the man is just at his time. Vaping doesn't prolong his life if he is already reaching the end. it's definitely harm reduction. I was wandering why don't he smoke to death. Than will they go after the tobacco company? BBC may not even bother about this news then.
BBC didn't get the fact right and start making a Joke of themselves.
Here is the BBC's report:

YouTube - Bad news for E-cig Users

If you wish to complain, this is the URL to visit:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/forms/

 

[leaford]

Hello Zeroi, and welcome to our forum. And may I say, you have a gorgeous avatar.

 

[MoonDance]

Welcome Zeroi