How long is a "burst?"

[Tombie15]

Hi,

I am an experienced vaper, with a solid grasp on ohms law, who takes the time to educate himself on battery safety, and understanding the batteries he is using and what they are capable of. I have never really found it necessary to build outside of what my battery is capable of, but recently had my interest piqued, and built a bit lower than usual on the basis that my batteries have enough burst amp to support the build.

My question, then, is: how long is a "burst?" From what I can gather, it's no more than a 5 seconds, so I have been limiting my pulls to around 4 seconds just to be safe, but I am curious to know if there is any hard-data to support the 5 second claim. I love vaping, but not enough to lose my face/hands/anything else over, and I know very well that the best way to decrease the odds of losing a limb is to simply build to a higher resistance, but I would be very interested to know if anyone has any information as to what the illusive "burst" really means.

Thanks

 

[dr g]

A burst is any use above the continuous rating. It is never safe and within the intended operating parameters of the battery. You should not operate your device above continuous rating if you can help it.

 

[Froth]

Most manufacturers that use a burst rating(not all of them do) usually state the length of time the burst can be sustained for. It is MUCH longer than 5 seconds though, for all of them across the board. For instance, the VTC4 can sustain a 60A burst for 75 seconds.

I'll ask the detrimental question here, what build and what battery are you using?

 

[Baditude]

Everyone's idea or definition for "burst" discharge rate is different, from manufacturer to manufacturer, from vendor to vendor, from consumer to consumer. There is no set standard for burst, unlike for "continuous" discharge rate which is an industry standard.

I pay no attention to "burst" discharge ratings if they are advertised because they are meaningless to me. The figure represents a rating which is above the standard spec for the battery, which I have no plans of ever applying. The only rating I'm interested in seeing is the continuous. I can compare the continuous ratings from one model and brand to another because it falls within a standard; pulse is not a standard so comparing it with another brand battery's pulse rating is meaningless.

Which would be why I feel we shouldn't rely on any pulse rating. Any failure, mechanical or electronic, that fires the mod will operate in the 'continuous' mode. If your setup relies on a pulse rating, it's instantly over spec.

If your amp draw is safely in the continuous discharge range, your coil could act almost like a fuse and burn out before the battery is stressed. If you are already running the battery at the edge of it's limits (pulse mode), there is no margin of safety.

Someone who is using a 30 amp continuous battery @ 0.1 ohm is running their battery over-spec because that resistance coil is drawing 42 amps continuous. Pulse rating? Who cares, any pulse rating is giving a false sense of security to someone who is abusing their batteries.

 

[milescadre]

View attachment 369472

Everyone's idea or definition for "burst" discharge rate is different, from manufacturer to manufacturer, from vendor to vendor, from consumer to consumer. There is no set standard for burst, unlike for "continuous" discharge rate which is an industry standard.

I pay no attention to "burst" discharge ratings if they are advertised because they are meaningless to me. The figure represents a rating which is above the standard spec for the battery, which I have no plans of ever applying. The only rating I'm interested in seeing is the continuous. I can compare the continuous ratings from one model and brand to another because it falls within a standard; pulse is not a standard so comparing it with another brand battery's pulse rating is meaningless.

Which would be why I feel we shouldn't rely on any pulse rating. Any failure, mechanical or electronic, that fires the mod will operate in the 'continuous' mode. If your setup relies on a pulse rating, it's instantly over spec.

If your amp draw is safely in the continuous discharge range, your coil could act almost like a fuse and burn out before the battery is stressed. If you are already running the battery at the edge of it's limits (pulse mode), there is no margin of safety.

Someone who is using a 30 amp continuous battery @ 0.1 ohm is running their battery over-spec because that resistance coil is drawing 42 amps continuous. Pulse rating? Who cares, any pulse rating is giving a false sense of security to someone who is abusing their batteries.

+1.

I get the same experience out of a 0.5 dual coil that I do out of a 0.22 dual coil. Maybe I'm a bit conservative, but why stress your battery to get the same results? I think it stems from laziness personally. fewer wraps, faster coils

 

[Tombie15]

Most manufacturers that use a burst rating(not all of them do) usually state the length of time the burst can be sustained for. It is MUCH longer than 5 seconds though, for all of them across the board. For instance, the VTC4 can sustain a 60A burst for 75 seconds.

I'll ask the detrimental question here, what build and what battery are you using?

Orbtronic sx30 (Rewrapped VTC4) at .12 ohms.
Can you possibly link me to somewhere I can see some quantitative data supporting the 75 second claim?


I appreciate everyone's concern with my safety, but - at risk of sounding snotty - I think the finger wagging that goes on around here is almost as detrimental to the vape community as the idiots firing 26650 batteries at .08ohms because they truly, honestly believe that because the battery is bigger, it is more powerful.

I know that what I am doing is testing the limits of my battery. I understand the risks of building this low. I also understand that I am using a battery that is very powerful, and has a massive pulse amp, but am unclear as to exactly how long a "pulse" is. I have the good sense to do a bit more research on what I'm doing to attempt to fill in the gaps in what I know about my batteries so I can best control and decrease the likelihood of a dangerous situation.

 

[Ryedan]

I am an experienced vaper, with a solid grasp on ohms law, who takes the time to educate himself on battery safety, and understanding the batteries he is using and what they are capable of.

I have never really found it necessary to build outside of what my battery is capable of, but recently had my interest piqued, and built a bit lower than usual on the basis that my batteries have enough burst amp to support the build.

My question, then, is: how long is a "burst?" From what I can gather, it's no more than a 5 seconds, so I have been limiting my pulls to around 4 seconds just to be safe, but I am curious to know if there is any hard-data to support the 5 second claim. I love vaping, but not enough to lose my face/hands/anything else over, and I know very well that the best way to decrease the odds of losing a limb is to simply build to a higher resistance, but I would be very interested to know if anyone has any information as to what the illusive "burst" really means.

OK, so you have taken the time to educate yourself on battery safety and feel you understand what your batteries are capable of.

You don't know how long a burst rating is, but you tried your batteries at ? amps over the continuous amp rating and limited them to 4 second pulses because you thought that might have been rated at 5 seconds. So 80% of what you thought they were possibly capable of. You want to know if the 5 second claim is safe. Please correct me if I got any of this wrong.

If I got that right, considering you ran 80% of the amp draw you were not certain was safe, you took a chance that your batteries might vent while you were vaping. Doesn't sound safe to me.

Don't know the answer to your question. There are too many unknown variables.

I appreciate everyone's concern with my safety, but - at risk of sounding snotty - I think the finger wagging that goes on around here is almost as detrimental to the vape community as the idiots firing 26650 batteries at .08ohms because they truly, honestly believe that because the battery is bigger, it is more powerful.

You trying your battery at a current draw you do not know is safe is dangerous by definition. You have no control over what anyone else does but you do have full control over what you do. Safety starts with you.

I know that what I am doing is testing the limits of my battery. I understand the risks of building this low. I also understand that I am using a battery that is very powerful, and has a massive pulse amp, but am unclear as to exactly how long a "pulse" is. I have the good sense to do a bit more research on what I'm doing to attempt to fill in the gaps in what I know about my batteries so I can best control and decrease the likelihood of a dangerous situation.

That's great, but I suggest you stop the battery testing until you have a better grasp of battery safety. Doing more research is IMO the right thing to do. I doubt being snotty is going to help you much.

Be real and vape on

 

[Krashman Von Stinkputin]

Most manufacturers that use a burst rating(not all of them do) usually state the length of time the burst can be sustained for. It is MUCH longer than 5 seconds though, for all of them across the board. For instance, the VTC4 can sustain a 60A burst for 75 seconds.

I'll ask the detrimental question here, what build and what battery are you using?

Manufacturers of many products with usage ratings will have some type of BURST, OVERLOAD, PEAK,.BOOST etc spec.

These are most often UNDERSTATED. The manufacturer provides itself some headroom
This is to protect the manufacturer from misapplications of the product by error or idiocy.
That to say to protect them from you not protecting yourself.

Unless you're a engineer, test pilot, or daredevil--getting paid to push the envelope---I'd advise against feeling comfort riding in or relying on those specs (assuming the ones you state are even correct.)

I'd also advise against making those claims here.

In addition, no 2 products that come off that manufacturer's line are the same, they just meet approved tolerances.
Which was determined by some (possibly short and simple test) at the products "birth".
And of course, no one knows what happened to the product on it's journey from the manufacturer to your garage.

IMO:In the ever-changing, non-regulated world of vaping using batteries for a purpose they were not designed for, we're prolly best living in the CONTINUOUS range to be safest.

 

[dr g]

Most manufacturers that use a burst rating(not all of them do) usually state the length of time the burst can be sustained for. It is MUCH longer than 5 seconds though, for all of them across the board. For instance, the VTC4 can sustain a 60A burst for 75 seconds.

I'll ask the detrimental question here, what build and what battery are you using?

Burst is a condition in which the battery is on basically a buildup to failure. It is exceeding the sustainable and intended discharge rate of the battery. It is inappropriate for a consumer device to operate in the burst range of its battery.

 

[DaPopeLP]

Hi,

I am an experienced vaper, with a solid grasp on ohms law, who takes the time to educate himself on battery safety, and understanding the batteries he is using and what they are capable of. I have never really found it necessary to build outside of what my battery is capable of, but recently had my interest piqued, and built a bit lower than usual on the basis that my batteries have enough burst amp to support the build.

My question, then, is: how long is a "burst?" From what I can gather, it's no more than a 5 seconds, so I have been limiting my pulls to around 4 seconds just to be safe, but I am curious to know if there is any hard-data to support the 5 second claim. I love vaping, but not enough to lose my face/hands/anything else over, and I know very well that the best way to decrease the odds of losing a limb is to simply build to a higher resistance, but I would be very interested to know if anyone has any information as to what the illusive "burst" really means.

Thanks

Depends on the amp. As stated the vtc series can do 60a for 75 seconds. 150 amps for only 3 seconds. If you are looking for a set number, well tough luck. They dont exist.

 

[DaPopeLP]

View attachment 369472

Everyone's idea or definition for "burst" discharge rate is different, from manufacturer to manufacturer, from vendor to vendor, from consumer to consumer. There is no set standard for burst, unlike for "continuous" discharge rate which is an industry standard.

I pay no attention to "burst" discharge ratings if they are advertised because they are meaningless to me. The figure represents a rating which is above the standard spec for the battery, which I have no plans of ever applying. The only rating I'm interested in seeing is the continuous. I can compare the continuous ratings from one model and brand to another because it falls within a standard; pulse is not a standard so comparing it with another brand battery's pulse rating is meaningless.

Which would be why I feel we shouldn't rely on any pulse rating. Any failure, mechanical or electronic, that fires the mod will operate in the 'continuous' mode. If your setup relies on a pulse rating, it's instantly over spec.

If your amp draw is safely in the continuous discharge range, your coil could act almost like a fuse and burn out before the battery is stressed. If you are already running the battery at the edge of it's limits (pulse mode), there is no margin of safety.

Someone who is using a 30 amp continuous battery @ 0.1 ohm is running their battery over-spec because that resistance coil is drawing 42 amps continuous. Pulse rating? Who cares, any pulse rating is giving a false sense of security to someone who is abusing their batteries.

Im sorry but I disagree. I only pay attention to the pulse rating. Im not continuously firing my mod. Im giving it a pulse of energy. 42 amps is still well within the standard pulse rating of a vtc battery. it can hold that for 75 seconds. Are you firing your mod for 75 seconds? Im sure as hell not.

 

[dr g]

Depends on the amp. As stated the vtc series can do 60a for 75 seconds. 150 amps for only 3 seconds. If you are looking for a set number, well tough luck. They dont exist.

untrue on both counts. the ratings are "less than 75 seconds" and "less than 3 seconds" and they are not ratings to say it is okay to run either of those loads.

there is very well a set safe continuous use number. 30A. that's why that's the number to go by, anything else is misusing the battery.

 

[DaPopeLP]

untrue on both counts. the ratings are "less than 75 seconds" and "less than 3 seconds" and they are not ratings to say it is okay to run either of those loads.

there is very well a set safe continuous use number. 30A. that's why that's the number to go by, anything else is misusing the battery.

Disagree yet again. First its been shown that they can not actually hit the 30A continuous without over heating. But hey what do I know? I must vent batteries all the time right? I mean I push them into the 100 amp plus range and have pushed them to 150 amp. Not a single vent either btw. 60 amps on a vtc is completely safe if you are pulsing the battery. 100 amp is as well. Just because you dont want to does not mean it can't or its unsafe. I am not continuously using it. Im pulsing it, therefor that is the number I go by. They would not have pulse rating if it wasnt applicable. Why do you think efest can get away with it without batteries going thermal every minute? Because you are pulsing your vape.

 

[dr g]

Disagree yet again. First its been shown that they can not actually hit the 30A continuous without over heating. But hey what do I know? I must vent batteries all the time right? I mean I push them into the 100 amp plus range and have pushed them to 150 amp. Not a single vent either btw. 60 amps on a vtc is completely safe if you are pulsing the battery. 100 amp is as well. Just because you dont want to does not mean it can't or its unsafe. I am not continuously using it. Im pulsing it, therefor that is the number I go by. They would not have pulse rating if it wasnt applicable. Why do you think efest can get away with it without batteries going thermal every minute? Because you are pulsing your vape.

Just because you have done it doesn't mean anything. There is no such thing as a "pulse" rating on Sony batteries, nor is it any kind of guide for use. What you think you saw was a specification by Sony for overcurrent cutoff devices (such as fuses), which are to operate at any current over 30A, within the timeframe specified.

It is not, never has been, and never will be, a rating for use. Any current over 30A is overcurrent.

Remember, without an overcurrent cutoff device, there is nothing keeping the mod from firing continuously.

 

[DaPopeLP]

DIsagree but you are set in your ways. So good luck to you. Ill continue to use mine the way I use em and they will continue to be safe. The continuous rating is completely and utterly useless for what we use them for. Knowing what they can pulse to is actually useful.

And btw tons of people do it without knowing it. Every one using a purple efest past a .21 or so build is pushing it past the continuous rating of 20a. And technically anything over 20A with the vtc is overcurrent as they apparently over heat when run at 20 amp.

 

[Wraith504]

I can say my vtc5s barely get luke warm when i vape at .16 which is 26.25 amps giving me 3.75a headroom. And thats calculated at 4.2v which we all know is not sustained very long.

 

[DaPopeLP]

I can say my vtc5s barely get luke warm when i vape at .16 which is 26.25 amps giving me 3.75a headroom. And thats calculated at 4.2v which we all know is not sustained very long.

With battery sag and voltage drop in your mod, is even less than 4.2 volts even straight off the charger which is slightly annoying when you think about it.

 

[Baditude]

Disagree but you are set in your ways. So good luck to you. Ill continue to use mine the way I use em and they will continue to be safe. The continuous rating is completely and utterly useless for what we use them for. Knowing what they can pulse to is actually useful.

Then we agree to disagree. As I have said repeatedly, the battery industry standard is the continuous discharge rating. All manufacturers list this as the limit that the battery can be used before failure.

The pulse rating is for unique situations that don't even apply for our application. We aren't using over-current cutoff devices in our mechanical mods. In fact, the manufacturers don't even like the idea that we are using these batteries alone as single cell use without protection. They were designed for use in multiple battery packs with their own protection fuses. We just happen to be "borrowing" the technology for our purposes, and some of you are abusing that techology by pushing those batteries above spec and without protection.

And btw tons of people do it without knowing it. Every one using a purple efest past a .21 or so build is pushing it past the continuous rating of 20a. And technically anything over 20A with the vtc is overcurrent as they apparently over heat when run at 20 amp.

So, admitting that a battery does in fact overheat at 20 amps, and that's ok with you? I build my coils within the safety limits of my battery's continuous discharge rating. And guess what? They don't get hot; they don't even get warm. A warm or hot battery is an abused battery and being used over spec. It's a warning sign.

Do you routinely run your car engine in the red line area of your tachometer? You'll get away with it for a period of time, but eventually its going to catch up with you.

Sometimes, just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

 

[dr g]

Regarding the 30A continuous: It is worth noting that every battery is rated at a specific temperatures. Its ratings assume a certain ambient temperature and cells do heat up when they discharge heavily.

The problem is that the ambient conditions inside a mod are not nearly as friendly as the testing room. There is a heating coil about an inch away from the battery. And in many cases the battery is in an enclosed metal casing which absorbs heat from the coil and from the human body.

DIsagree but you are set in your ways. So good luck to you. Ill continue to use mine the way I use em and they will continue to be safe. The continuous rating is completely and utterly useless for what we use them for. Knowing what they can pulse to is actually useful.

Using it in that manner is not and will never will be "safe." Lock your button on and put the mod down. If your mod would overdischarge doing that, it's being used unsafely. Yes even at 30A Sony batteries inside a mech mod may become unsafe due to the aforementioned ambient conditions. A VTC5 for example heats up to almost 175f/80c when discharged continuously at 20A; that heat gets absorbed by the mod as well.

Pulse rating is a myth and in the case of Sony batteries literally does not exist. The fact that you choose to use something in an unsafe manner does not make it safe.

 

[DaPopeLP]

The pulse rating is for unique situations that don't even apply for our application.


So, admitting that a battery does in fact overheat at 20 amps, and that's ok with you? .

A) The pulse rating is the only thing that matters to our use. Only rating. Im not vaping for 30min straight, are you?

B) was pointing out a flaw in your and dr g's argument.