I found this relevant

[Nunnster]

So today while browsing the web I found this State, Federal Governments Dependent On Tobacco Tax Revenue, Strength Of Industry I dont know if anyone has seen this before but to me it explains why so many organizations are fighting against e cigs. I know its a well known fact that states and federal govt broke, but this sheds a little more light on the subject. After reading that I did a quick search and found this Tobacco Tax Revenue. Makes you wonder.

 

[5cardstud]

I figured that out a long time ago. Not only is Big tobacco and Big Pharmaceutical losing money but so is the Gov on the tax revenue. I mean they charge more on the taxes for a pack than the tobacco costs. I found if you mess with their money that's when the yell and squirm the loudest. I don't think health enters into it for them.

That is a good post BTW.

 

[mostlyclassics]

Excellent post, and thanks for the link.

I suspect it's only a matter of time before we vapers face monstrous taxes and stifling regulation of both hardware and e-liquids.

So I've dedicated the next eight months or so to stockpiling enough 100 mg./ml. nic-liquid in a dedicated freezer to last me the rest of my life. It'll only take me about 15 liters. Flavorings should always be available and relatively untaxed, since they're used in so many other applications. IMO, the hardware isn't quite there yet, so I'm deferring massive hardware purchases. I'll take a look at the technological scene about next June and may start stockpiling hardware specific to vaping then if I feel it's "good enough."

My crystal ball shows that, once the governments (federal, state and local) start taxing vaping-specific items, it won't be long before 80-90% of the price will be taxes.

Just my take on the situation . . .

 

[RandaPandaBear]

I was having the same thought process go through my head.. about stockpiling nic juice and other things needed :-/

 

[rolygate]

At this link: Tobacco Tax Revenue -- total tobacco tax revenue for 2008 appears to be shown as $16.5 trillion. Is this correct?

 

[rothenbj]

At this link: Tobacco Tax Revenue -- total tobacco tax revenue for 2008 appears to be shown as $16.5 trillion. Is this correct?

I did a quick google to try getting some PA numbers. I found the 2007 cigarette taxes to be $784,055k (Commonwealth Foundation - Budget Facts 2009: Cigarette Taxes) with taxfacts showing $1,018,438k for the same period. Depending what the tax revenue was for all tobacco products other than cigarettes, how much additional tax was charged by local governments and whether PA's 6% sales tax added to taxfacts numbers, I could see PAs being at least somewhat accurate. However, as I'm writing and re-looking at taxfacts, I think you are three zeros too high.

 

[NorthOfAtlanta]

At this link: Tobacco Tax Revenue -- total tobacco tax revenue for 2008 appears to be shown as $16.5 trillion. Is this correct?

Think this is a few zeros off, according to this the US GDP was only 14.7 trillion in 2010.

 

[rolygate]

OK. But there are a lot of 'references' out there to State tobacco tax revenue being higher than £16.5 billion. This is the trouble with statistics, none of them ever agree.

 

[Nunnster]

I think I need glasses, I read 16 mil.

 

[rothenbj]

I think I need glasses, I read 16 mil.

If you read the top of the report, it stipulates the numbers are shown in thousands which makes the million numbers actually billions.

 

[Nunnster]

Ahhhhh now it makes sense, thanks for pointing that out.

 

[rolygate]

The figure given is 16,575,613 for 2008, and above it states the figures is in thousands. Therefore the number is 16.5 billion. Problem solved.

Now I'd like to find out if the number is the federal tax only, and the state tax needs to be added - or if that number is a total of federal and state revenue. I've googled 'tobacco tax revenue' in several forms but can't find a total number anywhere.

 

[Vap0rJay]

Heres a scary article...

Thanks to the FDA, You Really Have No Idea What's In Your Food | Food | AlterNet
An estimated 60 to 70 percent of processed foods contains genetically modified organisms, but unlike 50 other countries, the US doesn't require labeling.

... But amazingly, in this supposed bastion of freedom and democracy we're denied the fundamental right to know what's in our food -- a right that more than 50 other nations, including China and Russia, offer their citizens. That's China and Russia, as in the big scary authoritarian countries known for communism, corruption and rampant human rights violations. They're at least doing a better job of trying to look like they care about protecting the freedom to choose what people put in their bodies.


So once they "regulate" and all -- if tobacco is anything like food - lord only knows what's really gonna be in your e-liquid.

 

[rolygate]

Most would recognize that corporate interests control regulatory processes far more than should be allowed in some western countries - but it seems that no one is going to step up to the plate and do something about the corruption.

As far as e-cigs are concerned, I think the free market, totally unregulated so far, has done a very good job of providing the best products for consumers. We have gone in a few short years from first-generation hardware, through second generation, to third generation products that perform far better than the original cigarette-clone Tier 1 models. Research and product improvements in a very short timescale have completely transformed the hardware available, although these improvements are still not widely available due mainly to marketing issues. Medical researchers often talk about 'product improvements' and 'more research', and they are clearly unaware of the fact that in most cases they are working with obsolete equipment.

In fact products are now fairly well advanced, it is marketing that lags behind.

The liquid refills are really well developed, with a vast range of base materials, nic strengths and flavors available. No doubt other advances will be made but right now we have enough capability to satisfy most smokers who want to switch. I think that the next stages will be incorporation of other non-nicotine tobacco components in order to remove the need for other products such as Snus, but this step will be accompanied by initial controversy.

The main improvement we might hope for in this area is for better transparency in the ingredients, for those who wish to buy products of one particular type or another. For example, a personal hope is that a vendor will see a marketing advantage to having regular full GC-MS tests of finished retail product featured on their website. I have no doubt this will happen one day as it is such an obvious marketing move - but it first requires a vendor to have enough sales volume and markup to be able to afford it, and to have a product that can survive the full exposure of all its ingredients. At present it seems there isn't such a vendor and product.

The real improvements needed are in the marketing and publicity areas, when we have a situation where medical researchers are using obsolete equipment and where no one knows the true makeup of any retail e-liquid.

 

[tommy2bad]

The real improvements needed are in the marketing and publicity areas

Marketing costs money, the kind of crazy money that retailers cant afford. The whole ecig thing is stuck in a garage somewhere selling on the web. Kinda like Dell one time, Dell had the advantage of IBM marketing to coast on at first. Theirs no one with the clout to build a brand, not for a product that has the resistance that ecigs has. Think of it, cutting into a market controlled by big tobacco big pharma and offering something that is intended to only appeal to a diminishing market segment. Ecigs are designed to become obsolete. They are for ex smokers.

 

[rothenbj]

The figure given is 16,575,613 for 2008, and above it states the figures is in thousands. Therefore the number is 16.5 billion. Problem solved.

Now I'd like to find out if the number is the federal tax only, and the state tax needs to be added - or if that number is a total of federal and state revenue. I've googled 'tobacco tax revenue' in several forms but can't find a total number anywhere.

Unless I'm looking at a different chart it's the other way around. The chart is State and local tax only.

 

[rothenbj]

Marketing costs money, the kind of crazy money that retailers cant afford. The whole ecig thing is stuck in a garage somewhere selling on the web. Kinda like Dell one time, Dell had the advantage of IBM marketing to coast on at first. Theirs no one with the clout to build a brand, not for a product that has the resistance that ecigs has. Think of it, cutting into a market controlled by big tobacco big pharma and offering something that is intended to only appeal to a diminishing market segment. Ecigs are designed to become obsolete. They are for ex smokers.

I'm not sure how diminishing the market really is. When you look at the numbers over the last ten years, the number of reported smokers hasn't really dropped much. You have the 666² mortality number which might only represent 20-30% active smokers and a number quitting among this group and the various medical cessation groups and cold turkey. However there are an awfully lot of young adults smoking who won't quit soon, at least till the tax breaks them.

I think this market can certainly be viable for decades, especially as hardware and software improve and IF some real science can eliminate the indoor bans.

 

[Vocalek]

Marketing costs money, the kind of crazy money that retailers cant afford. The whole ecig thing is stuck in a garage somewhere selling on the web. Kinda like Dell one time, Dell had the advantage of IBM marketing to coast on at first. Theirs no one with the clout to build a brand, not for a product that has the resistance that ecigs has. Think of it, cutting into a market controlled by big tobacco big pharma and offering something that is intended to only appeal to a diminishing market segment. Ecigs are designed to become obsolete. They are for ex smokers.

It sounds as if you are assuming that everyone who switches to an e-cigarette has the goal of quitting nicotine. Those who want to quit nicotine make up a small percentage of the vaping population. We are mostly made up of folks who are either *dependent on the beneficial effects of nicotine, or who just plain prefer to have those beneficial effects available to us.

Decades of research on Swedish smokers who switch to snus show that they have no higher risk of smoking-related diseases than former smokers who gave up all tobacco/nicotine use. They also have an equivalent life expectency.

So, if quitting nicotine won't buy me any extra years or life or reduction in physical disease risks, what would be my motivation for doing so?


*Nicotine improves the ability to concentrate, pay attention, some aspects of memory and memory retrieval, and helps to relieve depression and anxiety. About 1/3 of folks who took up daily smoking only experience a few days to a few weeks of problems in these areas and then get better. The other 2/3 took up daily smoking because they had underlying conditions such as attention deficits or depression. For this group, smoking functioned as a means of self-medicating these conditions. These are permanent conditions, so quitting nicotine triggers impairments that interfere with daily functioning--such as being able to perform our jobs without making mistakes. And, for us, these impairments only seem to get worse over time.

Some of the folks in the first group, however, like having nicotine available as a tool to be used in the same way that the majority of folks use caffeine -- as a little extra help to keep from nodding off while doing something mind-numbing...or to get the creative juices flowing...or to help with self-control in emotional situations.

Nicotine isn't intoxicating and doesn't cause cancer, lung disease, or cardiovascular disease. The anti-tobacco folks love to say that it increases heart rate and blood pressure, but forget to mention that this effect endures for an average of 20 minutes -- about the same amount of time that BP and heart rate are raised by exercising. Nicotine does not cause hypertension (chronic high blood pressure). The only harmful thing that has been definitively connected to nicotine use (via the research on snus) is that it can have an adverse effect on the fetus, so it is best to avoid nicotine while pregnant.

So I don't want ecigs that are designed to become obsolete. I'd prefer high-quality, long-lasting equipment.

 

[tommy2bad]

Vocalek;

So I don't want ecigs that are designed to become obsolete. I'd prefer high-quality, long-lasting equipment.

You misunderstand me, I never meant that any particular ecig was designed to become obsolete. What I'm saying is if new users only come from the segment of smokers looking to quit cigarettes, then new ecig users will become a diminishing number.
Yes now from a huge base of smokers theirs lots of converts but as time goes on smoking will become less normative. New ecig users just to keep the growth in the market will have to come from non smokers.
This may be a couple of decades down the line but its the nature of the product. It works as a cessation method, users move from cigarettes to ecigs. What doesn't happen is people taking up the ecig as a first nicotine delivery system.
Ultimately big tobacco is right to be scarred, ecigs are in long term competition, at the moment ecigs let big tobacco recruit new users for them.
Health concerns aren't part of the argument, this is about money and who will end up holding it.

 

[rothenbj]

Tommy, at the current rate of descent in the number of smokers, you're looking at centuries, not decades, to eradication. You are also looking at a very short period in time where TC is still "winning the battle". Get the right rebellious generation or two and all those gains, figuratively and literally, go up in smoke. The TC movement is having about the same success as the other moralistic movements we've seen in the past.

I personally don't see PVs as being a young person's choice over smoking. Safety is not their concern, rebellion is. Later and by all evidence much later they may look at PVs as an alternative but I can't see young people as early adopters.