I need the antifreeze thing cleared up

[thewomenfolk]

From Justrubl...."And this is why I feel the way I do. I am an emergency room nurse and one of the sayings a co-worker loves to give is "you can't fix stupid". And as an ER nurse I always say (and this is just in general - and gets my mother fussing at me every time) "everyone is ......ed and I hate people"....and these people who push the negatives of the e-cig when they don't know jack about them fall in that group."

I LOVE IT!!!!!!!!

Thanks to everybody for your great and informative responses!

"you can't fix stupid"

 

[jadeninja]

They can't. Dihydrogen Oxide has actually killed people, therefore it's FDA approved, just like Chantix and tobacco.

Reminds me of the episode of Penn and Teller at a environmentalist protest and they were passing around a petition trying to ban dihydrogen oxide, talking about the thousand who die from the inhalation of it and how it falls from the sky. People were actually signing this thing. Which plays to the bigger point. (for those still scratching their heads, dihydrogen oxide is the chem name for water H20) Understand, think critically and understand.

 

[Kent C]

Reminds me of the episode of Penn and Teller at a environmentalist protest and they were passing around a petition trying to ban dihydrogen oxide, talking about the thousand who die from the inhalation of it and how it falls from the sky. People were actually signing this thing. Which plays to the bigger point. (for those still scratching their heads, dihydrogen oxide is the chem name for water H20) Understand, think critically and understand.

I saw that. I was wondering if the people passing around the petition knew. lol.

 

[Reboot]

water is very dangerous and we should all be protected from it, that stuff is in EVERYTHING!

 

[Brachinus]

or how about:

"..containing nicotine and propylene glycol, which is used in antifreeze."
"..containing nicotine and propylene glycol, which is used in hand sanitizer."

"..containing nicotine and propylene glycol, which is used in nebulizers for children with breathing problems."

Put that in your pipe and vape it.

 

[optsmk]

water is very dangerous and we should all be protected from it, that stuff is in EVERYTHING!

LOL, I like that one.
Technically, it is possible to drown from just one drop of water. The FDA needs to ban that stuff. It's gonna kill us all. LOL

 

[DC2]

One thing that never ceases to amaze me is the limitless supply of human stupidity.

There are two species on this earth that look exactly the same, human beings and idiots.
Unfortunately, you can't always tell the difference between the two until it's too late.


Yeah, I read what you said the other day.
And after I laughed, I read it to my wife, who also laughed.

At the time I promised I would steal it, but I don't remember it word for word anymore.
So yeah, I took some liberties.

 

[optsmk]

I can't find a thread that fully explains why we can accurately claim that the PG we use is not the same thing that's used in Antifreeze.

Is Proplyene Glycol actually stated on bottles of Vanilla flavoring as an ingredient? Is it also stated as an ingredient on Antifreeze bottles? I'm confused.

I'll make it as simple as possible. There is no anti freeze in juice. At this time, that is all anyone needs to know.

 

[DC2]

Facts are facts. It's how you present them that makes a difference. Why not say in all by one it was proven that e-cigs contain no carcinogenic material and proved the e-cigs claims.

Just to be completely clear...

The FDA did find carcinogens in the juice.
They found about six or seven of them I believe.

They most likely came from the tobacco used to extract nicotine.
They were in trace amounts so small as to be pretty much negligible.

These same carcinogens are found in the patch, lozenges, Nicotrol inhaler, etcetera.
And they are found there for the same reason they were found in the juice.

The most important things to note are...
-Six or seven carcinogens instead of at least 40 carcinogens in cigarettes
-The same carcinogens found in the juice are in cigarettes in concentrations 1500 times higher

 

[Ez Duzit]

 

[Kent C]

water is very dangerous and we should all be protected from it, that stuff is in EVERYTHING!

And we should limit carbon dioxide because that's what plants need to produce the oxygen we breathe - it's a poison, I'm telling you!

It makes about as much sense as the water joke. Actually the water joke makes more sense.

 

[Mordred]

An interesting fact about ethylene glycol poisoning:

"The antidotes used are either ethanol or fomepizole (Antizol)."

In other words, alcohol, as found in such savory drinks as beer, wine and whiskey. So, at worst, we need to get drunk after vaping. Doesn't sound too bad. ;

 

[Smoking Guns]

Thanks for all the posts... this thread has been very helpful.

 

[windpath]

Nothing like a good strong of shot PG and a beer chaser, lol.

Its amazing how much damage the FDA can do with one FOS statement. If they ban e-cigs I wonder if there will be a class action lawsuit from e-cig users that went back to cigarettes because the FDA was "protecting" them 8-o

 

[thana]

I use my 510 all day, but people need to understand that just because the FDA has cleared PG as "safe for human consumption" doesn't mean that it actually is safe in e-cigs. PG can be found in icing and skin products sure, but we are not ingesting or rubbing PG on our skins, we are vaporizing it. By doing this the avioli in our lungs are absorbing the PG into out bodies. It is a different delivery into our bodies and PG undergoes a phase change.

Obviously people dont eat a gallon of icing everyday but vapers may inhale PG for the rest of their lives. It is somewhat naive to think that if it is safe in icing (or antifreeze for that matter), than it is safe to be inhaled for years continuously.

Whenever a chemical changes phase, it may decompose. When a molecule gets energetically excited by a temperature change it may rearrange its chemical structure it achieve a lower energy level. I failed to find at what temperature PG ddecomposes at, if its temperature is high above it boiling point, than it isn't likely to decompose.

Vegetable Glycerin (VG) will decompose in a pure VG e-juice. It creates a very harmful byproduct called Acrolein. VG, or glycerol, has a decomposes at a same temperature as which it boils at.

Although the present of decomposition of VG bay be below 5%, whith long term exposure, a pure VG/nicotene e-juice is far more harmful that a PG juice.

Take a look at what MSDS says about PG:

MSDS is a far better tool for learning about organic molecules than Wikipedia. It says however:

Inhalation:
No adverse health effects via inhalation.

Chronic Exposure:
Lactic acidosis, stupor and seizures have been reported following chronic ingestion.

Aggravation of Pre-existing Conditions:
Kidney disorders.

--------\Cancer Lists\------------------------------------------------
---NTP Carcinogen---
Ingredient Known Anticipated IARC Category
---------------------------- ----- ----------- -------------
Propylene Glycol (57-55-6) No No None

So the MSDS is pretty much saying that it is generally safe,
but I don't think they knew people would be
inhaling this over years of time.

This is why the FDA needs to have some responsibility in at
least testing the effects of inhaling PG of long periods of time.
They will be testing inhalation of e-liquid vapor in lab rats.
The FDA has claimed they are not out to ban the product, they
will first do a study as to what/if are the risks to our health.

 

[thana]

duplicate post... again lol

 

[Angela]

I don't even know where to start in contradicting the above post.... and I most certainly do not have any special chemical knowledge, but many of the issues that you have raised have been done to death on this forum, by people far more knowledgable and qualified than I (and incidentally, PG does not undergo a 'chemial change' in the sense that you are saying.... not to mention the fact that some VG liquids have been laboratory tested to disprove the acrolein theory.)

Yes, we all agree that the long-term effects cannot be fully quantified until we have long-term usage, but spouting half-truths, regurgitating statements that do not translate to what we are doing, or chinese whispers will not help us get to the bottom of it all either.

 

[thana]

I don't even know where to start in contradicting the above post....

Then don't... You are expecting everything to be rainbows and butterflies, with cherries on top... the OP was asking about the health risks of e-cig. It is very irresponsible of you to shoot down someone that is merely trying to tell someone the other side of an argument.

Who are you to tell someone that something is 100% safe when, as you say, have no experience at all.

This forum is about discussing matters openly. Otherwise it would be the equivalent to whoever can shout the loudest with headphones on.

PG does not undergo a 'chemial change' in the sense that you are saying....

Please read what I write before you accuse me of something I did not do. I did not say that all. You were so ready to jump on my post that you failed to read it.... I was talking aboout VG not PG!

 

[Angela]

Then don't... You are expecting everything to be rainbows and butterflies, with cherries on top...

ABSOLUTELY NOT!

the OP was asking about the health risks of e-cig. It is very irresponsible of you to shoot down someone that is merely trying to tell someone the other side of an argument.

NEVER would I do so, but I am not happy with someone posting "half-truths, regurgitating statements that do not translate to what we are doing, or chinese whispers"

Who are you to tell someone that something is 100% safe when, as you say, have no experience at all.

Again, never have I, or would I say that it is 100% safe. Please re-read my post

This forum is about discussing matters openly. Otherwise it would be the equivalent to whoever can shout the loudest with headphones on.

Finally, we agree on something.

 

[kristin]

No one ever said PVs were 100% safe. The whole point is that they are safer/cleaner than tobacco smoke.

What people who use the "anti-freeze" arguement often fail to notice is that the 1% DEG is the WORST thing the FDA could find in ONE of the 18 carts tested and it's in much higher amounts in tobacco cigarettes! No tar, no arsenic, no ammonia, no carbon monoxide, etc...no one (Anti-PV) stops to think about how much cleaner that is than what is found in a real cigarettes.

The WORST thing they could manage to find was the 1% DEG, so they had to play it up. If they could have found anything worse than a tiny amount of DEG, you KNOW they would have been shouting it from the rooftops! Is DEG worse than inhaling arsenic or ammonia?

By ONLY finding the DEG as the "worst" ingredient, the FDA confirmed for me what I already knew - PVs are less toxic and, therefore, less deadly than tobacco smoking. And I don't use Smoking Everywhere 555 High brand cartridges, nor any tobacco flavors, so I'm not worried about DEG exposure, either!