I think we need the FDA, I really do.

[Sekasi]

First off: I'm a very happy converted smoker. Let's get that out of the way (check my other posts).

Now, my rationale for this big FDA claim is simple. I think we need control, and I think we need regulation. Right now, it's the wild west. There is an abundance of indie e-juice vendors that are under little to no regulation or control whatsoever. It's actually pretty weird.

I visited a B&M while in SF a while ago and was talking up my favourite juice. The owner said 'I can clone it for you!'. I was intrigued and came back later with the bottle. He took me back to his 'lab' which was little more than a dirty dinner table with all sorts of junk spread out among bottles of juice and VG. Filthy. I walked straight out.

This started me thinking though.. With this Diacetyl scare, and the replacements in custard juice. We have no idea. It's all good and fine if you're vaping pure VG, but flavours.. we have no idea. And I get it. Cigs are worse. It's not about that. It's just scary. You try to put faith in these indie juice businesses but the reality is, we just have no idea. The point of swapping to vape from Cigs is usually a health reason, and it'd be nice to have SOME idea what's going on.

I think an element of certification and regulation will hurt us, financially and from a selection point of view.. but gee.. I'd probably welcome that in return for a bit of peace of mind and research.

What do you guys think. I'm assuming I don't have a popular opinion, but I'd like to hear yours.

 

[GolemGolem]

You have a point.
In a perfect world there would be regulations in place to ban clearly dangerous ingredients quickly while leaving the rest, enough uncorruptable inspectors to make sure their juice making rooms are clean, and their juices are what they are labeled, and they would be harder on giants than on inspired and careful hard-working folks starting up in their spotless basements.
Just not sure how we get that with our congress and our FDA. Just have to be careful and learn what you can about your vendors and learn how to do it yourself.

 

[Spazmelda]

Reasonable regulations would be fine, but that's not likely to be what we get. Research is also good, but not when it's research specifically designed to blow any finding totally out of proportion with a negative spin, or designed to ensure the ecigs are tested improperly (dry burning creates chemicals that normal vaping wouldn't), or completely misinterpreted to 'show' ecigs are a gateway to smoking, 'renormalize smoking', or prevent smokers from quitting, etc...

We will have to fight tooth and nail for 'reasonable' regulation. I'm not opposed to it, but I do think it's a pie in the sky right now.

 

[Kim B.]

You do have a point OP, especially regarding the cleanliness during manufacture. True, the FDA could put regulations into place that would be of benefit to vapers. But with that comes a host of overboard regs and rules that would put the small juice makers out of business because they just couldn't afford to comply with equipment requirements, etc. It could also hasten the real possibility of large companies [read BT] controlling the juice market. There's no easy solution. For now I've just decided to purchase juice online from makers that have a good reputation.

 

[Sekasi]

You do have a point OP, especially regarding the cleanliness during manufacture. True, the FDA could put regulations into place that would be of benefit to vapers. But with that comes a host of overboard regs and rules that would put the small juice makers out of business because they just couldn't afford to comply with equipment requirements, etc. It could also hasten the real possibility of large companies [read BT] controlling the juice market. There's no easy solution. For now I've just decided to purchase juice online from makers that have a good reputation.

No easy answer indeed. And your solution is probably quite common.

Anyway, something worth pondering about. It's probably going to happen, or that's what it feels like. This current state seems strange and fleeting. I'd like to believe there'd be a world where you can tax e-liqs enough to cover for cig downfall and spend money researching good products instead of people-killing products.

But I digress.

 

[tj99959]

First off: I'm a very happy converted smoker. Let's get that out of the way (check my other posts).

Now, my rationale for this big FDA claim is simple. I think we need control, and I think we need regulation. Right now, it's the wild west. There is an abundance of indie e-juice vendors that are under little to no regulation or control whatsoever. It's actually pretty weird.

I visited a B&M while in SF a while ago and was talking up my favourite juice. The owner said 'I can clone it for you!'. I was intrigued and came back later with the bottle. He took me back to his 'lab' which was little more than a dirty dinner table with all sorts of junk spread out among bottles of juice and VG. Filthy. I walked straight out.

This started me thinking though.. With this Diacetyl scare, and the replacements in custard juice. We have no idea. It's all good and fine if you're vaping pure VG, but flavours.. we have no idea. And I get it. Cigs are worse. It's not about that. It's just scary. You try to put faith in these indie juice businesses but the reality is, we just have no idea. The point of swapping to vape from Cigs is usually a health reason, and it'd be nice to have SOME idea what's going on.

I think an element of certification and regulation will hurt us, financially and from a selection point of view.. but gee.. I'd probably welcome that in return for a bit of peace of mind and research.

What do you guys think. I'm assuming I don't have a popular opinion, but I'd like to hear yours.

Well you see that's ultimately the responsibility of the local health department. It's no different than inspecting the kitchen at you local restaurant.

 

[Fuzzy Bruce]

Well you see that's ultimately the responsibility of the local health department. It's no different than inspecting the kitchen at you local restaurant.

This is the answer I like! Once regulation falls on the Feds, most, if not all, ability to get certified becomes controlled by whoever has the most bucks. Who needs vape control?

Another idea would be to form a consortium of e-liquid producers to provide standards and have anyone who wishes to produce liquid submit the product and be open to inspection of their lab, in person or by third party or health department. Then, if all checks are satisfactory, some sort of certification can be given. It would be up to the consumer to decide if they want to purchase from a certified company, or not.

We have certified auto mechanics, computer techs, tradesmen and such with no federal regulation.

 

[Robino1]

This is the answer I like! Once regulation falls on the Feds, most, if not all, ability to get certified becomes controlled by whoever has the most bucks. Who needs vape control?

Another idea would be to form a consortium of e-liquid producers to provide standards and have anyone who wishes to produce liquid submit the product and be open to inspection of their lab, in person or by third party or health department. Then, if all checks are satisfactory, some sort of certification can be given. It would be up to the consumer to decide if they want to purchase from a certified company, or not.

We have certified auto mechanics, computer techs, tradesmen and such with no federal regulation.

There already is one. AEMSA: AEMSA | American E-Liquid Manufacturing Standards Association

 

[K_Tech]

Reasonable regulation based on scientific FACT I'm okay with. Keeping vape related gear out of the hands of minors I'm okay with. Proper labeling and child safety caps I'm okay with (even though I live alone and my pets are thumb-free).

Unreasonable, overly burdensome restrictions based solely on political agenda, not so much.

I am an adult, and I should be given information that I can base my own decision on about what I choose to put into my body. I can do without a nanny state.

 

[rolygate]

In Europe, as soon as something is offered for sale, it is subject to multiple consumer protection laws, and in many countries there are local inspectors who enforce those laws. In the UK, ecig products are subject to 17 laws as soon as they hit the shelves, and there are local inspectors everywhere who inspect, take away and analyse the products. It applies equally to stores and UK websites.

Because of this, consumer products such as ecigs are safer than pharmaceuticals - because if someone sold something dangerous that harmed or occasionally killed people and refused to comply then they'd be in jail. Something a thousand times more dangerous than that, on the scale of Chantix for example, is impossible to comprehend as a consumer product - hundreds would be prosecuted and likely to be jailed.

It's difficult for Europeans to understand a situation like the USA where someone can sell this type of product without it needing to comply with any regulations, and with no local enforcement system. In a situation like that, the trade need to self-regulate very efficiently; if they don't, then the only alternative seems to be FDA regulation. That's about the same thing as having the pharmaceutical industry shut you down, and this is probably what we can now expect to start happening.

 

[SleeZy]

You've a point but it'll also kill every small company there is that's making the juice.
Atleast in sweden to get a juice controlled and approved it costs between 58,360$ - 102,130$ per juice to get checked and approved.
This isn't small money and almost no company can afford this large sums of money just to get their juices verified and approved.
And even if it does not get approved you'll have to pay. So there's no insurance at all that it'll get approved.

In the end we'll have the big tobacco controlling the market again, and who knows what they will put in the juice?
They've put over 4000 chemicals in our cigarettes just to get us more addicted. So i don't doubt at all that they would do the same to our e juice in one way or another.

 

[tj99959]

In Europe, as soon as something is offered for sale, it is subject to multiple consumer protection laws, and in many countries there are local inspectors who enforce those laws. In the UK, ecig products are subject to 17 laws as soon as they hit the shelves, and there are local inspectors everywhere who inspect, take away and analyse the products. It applies equally to stores and UK websites.

Because of this, consumer products such as ecigs are safer than pharmaceuticals - because if someone sold something dangerous that harmed or occasionally killed people and refused to comply then they'd be in jail. Something a thousand times more dangerous than that, on the scale of Chantix for example, is impossible to comprehend as a consumer product - hundreds would be prosecuted and likely to be jailed.

It's difficult for Europeans to understand a situation like the USA where someone can sell this type of product without it needing to comply with any regulations, and with no local enforcement system. In a situation like that, the trade need to self-regulate very efficiently; if they don't, then the only alternative seems to be FDA regulation. That's about the same thing as having the pharmaceutical industry shut you down, and this is probably what we can now expect to start happening.

The US does have the Consumer Protection Agency, but they seem to be to busy recalling baby cribs and child car seats.
The US does have all the consumer protection laws it needs, they're just not funded or enforced. It's just cheaper to ban a product than it is to inspect for safety. Here in the US the idea seems to be to fund an agencies existence, but not the work the agency is supposed to perform. (that would mean raising taxes)

Even if you look at the FDA Deeming Regulations, there is no provision for inspection of facilities.

 

[Fuzzy Bruce]

There already is one. AEMSA: AEMSA | American E-Liquid Manufacturing Standards Association

Pardon my lack of knowledge on the subject. So, we as consumers of e-liquid should be looking toward member participating producers. It is a start. A whole lot better than federal intervention, the way I see it.

 

[TomGeorge]

I like your idea and see the value in it, but I see one major flaw. Like most people above stated, trusting the federal government to do an unbiased assessment and regulation is like pissing into the wind and hoping not to get wet. Their track record does not support that this will be the case for anything.

I think independent studies will come out that will inform us vapers, on the dangers of everything associated with it, that will allow us and juice vendors to make the best decisions

 

[skoony]

in my dream world ideally as far as regulations would go when it comes to making juice all products be clearly labeled with the ingredients. all raw materials would be traceable back to the manufacturer as being food or pharmaceutical grade. this would relieve each juice makers from obtaining separate certification for each and every shop. all juices would be made in an area equivalent to a commercial grade kitchen as far as health and safety standards are concerned. this could be done at the local level and save the FDA a lot of work. as far as PV's go if they in fact attempt to regulate them it would be a harder nut to crack. my idea would be to regulate voltages from say 3.2 to 4.7 volts with coils 1.5 ohms and up for safety reasons. for people making there own mods it must be very clear that they assume any and all responsibility.this way the companies making the more exotic devices would have protection from liability claims. this would be needed as your hard core do it yorselfer is going to do it any way. in this way they can get the quality materials needed for their hobby. basically this is all thats really needed. i am sure i haven't covered everything but,much more than this is really unnecessary. but alas in the real world when the FDA releases their regs its most likely to be 500 pages plus of gobbledy gunk.

regards
mike

 

[Robino1]

Pardon my lack of knowledge on the subject. So, we as consumers of e-liquid should be looking toward member participating producers. It is a start. A whole lot better than federal intervention, the way I see it.

I'm not saying we should or shouldn't. (How's that for being decisive? ) I'm just saying for those who feel it is in their best interest to purchase from companies that are certified, they do exist.

I was around when AEMSA got started. The thread is around here somewhere. A lot of back and forth regarding pros and cons of a vendor joining and what it took to be certified.

My vendor of choice is not on that list (the last time I looked anyway) but, people I know have visited their business and have reported good things about how they operate.

I guess it's about who you trust.

 

[Mig01]

The main problem that I see is that the FDA has already decided to treat e-cigs as tobacco products (they are called "deeming" regulations for a reason), which they are not. This shows right away that their concern is not public health or pulic safety. They want to use that "tobacco product classification" to justify similar taxation and similar limitation on vaping in public places, irrespective of the scientific evidence.
The other route that could be taken is to consider e-cig as smoking cessation products, thereby justifying their classsification as medicines and subjecting them to cumbersome and costly certification processes, killing all but the biggest players in that industry.
No government agency is considering a third route, that would be to regulate the e-cig products according to what they are, a chemical consumer product. That third route would allow custom made evidence based regulation, that neither BT notr Big Pharma nor the big government bureaucracies want.
Sorry to say, but I prefer no regulations (except the industry standards that are emerging) to the non evidence based regulations of the governments.

 

[Paradicio]

Self regulation, if done responsibly, can be lucrative and safe.

Look at the SCUBA industry.... Regulations are laid out by private organizations (I.e. PADI or NAUI) and enforced by the shop/resort owners and staff. Heck, even the majority of the research is funded by the industry/community. DAN has made huge strides in advancing and optimizing CPR technique, which benefits everyone (diver or not).

All of this works because divers understand that self regulation of the industry, and the sport that we love so much, is a privilege and follow the rules.

SCUBA is HIGHLY dangerous for the untrained (and even the trained). If an industry like that can self regulate, I see no reason why the e cig industry could not follow a similar model.

 

[Robino1]

Self regulation, if done responsibly, can be lucrative and safe.

Look at the SCUBA industry.... Regulations are laid out by private organizations (I.e. PADI or NAUI) and enforced by the shop/resort owners and staff. Heck, even the majority of the research is funded by the industry/community. DAN has made huge strides in advancing and optimizing CPR technique, which benefits everyone (diver or not).

All of this works because divers understand that self regulation of the industry, and the sport that we love so much, is a privilege and follow the rules.

SCUBA is HIGHLY dangerous for the untrained (and even the trained). If an industry like that can self regulate, I see no reason why the e cig industry could not follow a similar model.

That is why AEMSA was formed. On the belief that with these standards in place, the industry would be left to its own regulation with minimal interference from the government. AEMSA even sat with the FDA a year ago, CASAA also did this during the FDA fact finding mission (major eyeroll on fact finding mission). As you can see by the road the FDA is still traveling, it didn't get swayed by much.

 

[zoiDman]

Well you see that's ultimately the responsibility of the local health department. It's no different than inspecting the kitchen at you local restaurant.

I might be Wrong.

But I do Not Think that the SF or San Mateo County Health Department has any Authority or Responsibility to Inspect a B&M e-Liquid Vendor. And even if they Did Inspect them, to what Standards would they hold the B&M to?

FDA Regulations are going to be a Doubled Edged Sword.

Yes, there is going to be Some Good things. Like Sanitary Procedures and the Banning of say Flavoring that contains Diacetyl. And these regulations I Welcome.

But the Complete Redistribution of the e-Cigarette Market leaving Only BT and BB in Control is where the Regulations go Beyond Health and Safety. And will forever be seen as just a Power/Money Grab.