I'm a Christain, but I admit to crazy things in my book.

[DaMulta]

Lisa Lisa just pointed out to me that mocking the Bible is bad code. I'm sorry, but I have been a Christian my whole life....I have a right to question things in it. She just told me I was wrong to mock if you are a believer you can drink poison....well I believe, but there is no way I would drink poison.

There are other crazy things too....

Yahweh spoke to Gad, David's seer, saying, Go and speak to David, saying, Thus says Yahweh, I offer you three things: choose you one of them, that I may do it to you. So Gad came to David, and said to him, Thus says Yahweh, Take which you will: either three years of famine; or three months to be consumed before your foes, while the sword of your enemies overtakes you; or else three days the sword of Yahweh, even pestilence in the land, and the angel of Yahweh destroying throughout all the borders of Israel. Now therefore consider what answer I shall return to him who sent me. David said to Gad, I am in a great strait: let me fall, I pray, into the hand of Yahweh; for very great are his mercies: and let me not fall into the hand of man. So Yahweh sent a pestilence on Israel; and there fell of Israel seventy thousand men. (1 Chronicles 21:9-14 WEB)


"Next we headed for the land of Bashan, where King Og and his army attacked us at Edrei. But the LORD told me, 'Do not be afraid of him, for I have given you victory over Og and his army, giving you his entire land. Treat him just as you treated King Sihon of the Amorites, who ruled in Heshbon.' So the LORD our God handed King Og and all his people over to us, and we killed them all. We conquered all sixty of his towns, the entire Argob region in his kingdom of Bashan. These were all fortified cities with high walls and barred gates. We also took many unwalled villages at the same time. We completely destroyed the kingdom of Bashan, just as we had destroyed King Sihon of Heshbon. We destroyed all the people in every town we conquered – men, women, and children alike. But we kept all the livestock for ourselves and took plunder from all the towns." (Deuteronomy 3:1-7 NLT)


At the customary time for offering the evening sacrifice, Elijah the prophet walked up to the altar and prayed, "O LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, prove today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant. Prove that I have done all this at your command. O LORD, answer me! Answer me so these people will know that you, O LORD, are God and that you have brought them back to yourself." Immediately the fire of the LORD flashed down from heaven and burned up the young bull, the wood, the stones, and the dust. It even licked up all the water in the ditch! And when the people saw it, they fell on their faces and cried out, "The LORD is God! The LORD is God!" Then Elijah commanded, "Seize all the prophets of Baal. Don't let a single one escape!" So the people seized them all, and Elijah took them down to the Kishon Valley and killed them there. (1 Kings 18:36-40 NLT)

For those Christians that think socialist are bad bad voodoo.

Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand persons were added that day. They devoted themselves to the teaching of the apostles and to the communal life, to the breaking of the bread and to the prayers. Awe came upon everyone, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles. All who believed were together and had all things in common; they would sell their property and possessions and divide them among all according to each one's need. (Acts 2:41-45 NAB)

The community of believers was of one heart and mind, and no one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they had everything in common. With great power the apostles bore witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great favor was accorded them all. There was no needy person among them, for those who owned property or houses would sell them, bring the proceeds of the sale, and put them at the feet of the apostles, and they were distributed to each according to need. (Acts 4:32-35 NAB)

So Joshua and his warriors traveled to the water near Merom and attacked suddenly. And the LORD gave them victory over their enemies. The Israelites chased them as far as Great Sidon and Misrephoth-maim, and eastward into the valley of Mizpah, until not one enemy warrior was left alive. Then Joshua crippled the horses and burned all the chariots, as the LORD had instructed. Joshua then turned back and captured Hazor and killed its king. (Hazor had at one time been the capital of the federation of all these kingdoms.) The Israelites completely destroyed every living thing in the city. Not a single person was spared. And then Joshua burned the city. Joshua slaughtered all the other kings and their people, completely destroying them, just as Moses, the servant of the LORD, had commanded. However, Joshua did not burn any of the cities built on mounds except Hazor. And the Israelites took all the captured goods and cattle of the ravaged cities for themselves, but they killed all the people. As the LORD had commanded his servant Moses, so Moses commanded Joshua. And Joshua did as he was told, carefully obeying all of the LORD's instructions to Moses. (Joshua 11:7-15 NLT)


If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

At the LORD's command, a man of God from Judah went to Bethel, and he arrived there just as Jeroboam was approaching the altar to offer a sacrifice. Then at the LORD's command, he shouted, "O altar, altar! This is what the LORD says: A child named Josiah will be born into the dynasty of David. On you he will sacrifice the priests from the pagan shrines who come here to burn incense, and human bones will be burned on you." (1 Kings 13:1-2 NLT)


How can any man be just in God’s sight, or how can any women’s child be innocent? (Job 25:4 NAB)


Those killed by the sword are far better off than those who die of hunger, wasting away for want of food. Tenderhearted women have cooked their own children and eaten them in order to survive the siege. But now the anger of the LORD is satisfied. His fiercest anger has now been poured out. He started a fire in Jerusalem that burned the city to its foundations. (Lamentations 4:9-11 NLT)


Hear this word, you cows of Bashan who are on the mountain of Samaria, Who oppress the poor, who crush the needy, Who say to your husbands, "Bring now, that we may drink!" The Lord GOD has sworn by His holiness, "Behold, the days are coming upon you When they will take you away with meat hooks, And the last of you with fish hooks. "You will go out {through} breaches {in the walls,} Each one straight before her, And you will be cast to Harmon," declares the LORD. (Amos 4:1-3 NAS)




Just a few....and I'm not MOCKING....I'm pointing out what is in the Christian Bible so too say.




I guess everyone turns a blind eye to anything bad in the book, and bringing any of it up is mocking the true believers in some peoples eyes.....

 

[LisaLisa]

No DaMulta, I pointed out that your video clip was highly offensive because it included profanity, and it was clearly mocking the Bible and Christians. Profanity is not allowed here.

You are more then welcome to question anything you like, and we as Christians should search for answers to our questions. But, there is a right and a wrong way to go about it. A little common sense goes a long way.

 

[DaMulta]

Really LisaLisa? If Mocking by drinking poisen is bad too make fun of...

What about if you, and your kids are hungry with no food. Tenderhearted women should kill your kids with the sword, and cook them up if you are hungry to please God.

That's what the good book says right?clearly mocking the Bible and Christians

 

[LisaLisa]

Really LisaLisa? If Mocking by drinking poisen is bad too make fun of...

What about if you, and your kids are hungry with no food. Tenderhearted women should kill your kids with the sword, and cook them up if you are hungry to please God.

That's what the good book says right?

What is the purpose of your post Damultra? Do you just want to make fun of the Bible, or do you have sincere questions?

 

[DaMulta]

That people should not blindly follow the Bible, and to realize a lot of it is just stories too teach you how to live a good full life. Yet, most Christians act like Jefferson ripping parts out of the Bible they don't buy into. Yet, at the same time preach it as the whole Bible is the word of God. To act out against it in anyway (profanity) is just a one way trip to hell.

 

[lmrasch]

We walk by grace through faith DaMulta and the Holy Spirit is an excellent guide to how we ought to live. Yes, there are hard stories in the bible..however we are in the dispensation of grace here...the New Testament teaches us a new way to live and Jesus set the example by becoming a servant to all, pouring out his life for ours.
Peace

 

[LisaLisa]

Damulta, the "profanity" that caused me to remove your video was the "F" word. Maybe you were not aware that the video contained it, but the content was also offensive. It's not something I would expect to see on a Christian Forum. That's all, let's not make a mountain out of a mole hill here.

As far as your question, I"m going to leave it up to other posters here to answer because I don't know what to say. I sense alot of hostility right now, I'm sorry if I'm wrong about that.

 

[DaMulta]

Really? The only thing that changed was he died for our sins, and that we don't have to sacrifice animals anymore in his name.

If we go by the code anything that happened in the old does not stand in the new...Ten Commandments should not matter anymore. It would also release Christians from killing Homosexuals, Fortunetellers, Witches , Nonbelievers, and so on.......

 

[lmrasch]

Really? The only thing that changed was he died for our sins, and that we don't have to sacrifice animals anymore in his name.

If we go by the code anything that happened in the old does not stand in the new...Ten Commandments should not matter anymore. It would also release Christians from killing Homosexuals, Fortunetellers, Witches , Nonbelievers, and so on.......

John 13:
34) “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35) By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

Galatians 5
13) You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. 14) The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 15) If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

Galatians 5
22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23) gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
24) Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25) Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26) Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Let us hope that we are not performing the acts that you describe DaMulta....that is not in accordance with the fruit of the Spirit....

 

[Bigham1]

Really? The only thing that changed was he died for our sins, and that we don't have to sacrifice animals anymore in his name.

If we go by the code anything that happened in the old does not stand in the new...Ten Commandments should not matter anymore. It would also release Christians from killing Homosexuals, Fortunetellers, Witches , Nonbelievers, and so on.......

You bring up a touchy subject with me. I have a problem with some Christians saying that the new testament negates the old testament and then refer back to the old when it is convienant for them. I believe that they are just ignorant and have not read both books.

Also Jesus changed it so we can eat anything we want, and he removed an eye for an eye. But the thing he is really trying to change is for us to love oneanother. But you are correct he didn't cancel the whole old testament.

 

[DaMulta]

Jesus gives an absolute endorsement of the teachings and laws of Moses. "If you believe Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?" John 5:45

" For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." (Hebrews 7:12) The laws changed, not passed away. What changed was the need for a daily animal sacrifice (Hebrews 7:27-28). That is what the New Covenant was-- Jesus was a "human sacrifice" for the forgiveness sin, replacing the Old Covenant of sacrificing burnt offerings-- slaughtered animals-- for sins.

(Hebrews 8:13)In that he saith, A new covenant he hath made the first old. But that which is becoming old and waxeth aged is nigh unto vanishing away..

 

[Saintscruiser]

Jesus gives an absolute endorsement of the teachings and laws of Moses. "If you believe Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?" John 5:45

Jesus is talking to Jews. There were many Jews that weren't 'religious.' So if these 'unreligious' Jews didn't even believe in Moses and the Mosaic laws, then they sure weren't going to believe anything Jesus was saying because Moses spoke of Him. Jesus is spoken about in Scripture from Genesis to Revelation. I believe that the Holy Bible is the inerrant Word of God. But if I'm talking to someone who doesn't believe like I do, I can quote Scripture all day long and until God takes the scales from their eyes and ears, I'm talking to a deaf wall.....because they don't believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God. Am I making any sense or did I miss the point altogether. If I missed, explain it in a little more depth and I'll give it another shot.

 

[Saintscruiser]

" For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." (Hebrews 7:12) The laws changed, not passed away. What changed was the need for a daily animal sacrifice (Hebrews 7:27-28). That is what the New Covenant was-- Jesus was a "human sacrifice" for the forgiveness sin, replacing the Old Covenant of sacrificing burnt offerings-- slaughtered animals-- for sins.

(Hebrews 8:13)In that he saith, A new covenant he hath made the first old. But that which is becoming old and waxeth aged is nigh unto vanishing away..


I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. You put these Scriptures here but you didn't add anything else. But I will repeat, whoever wrote Hebrews (and there's no proof who is the author, but I think it was Paul) was talking to Jews. What did I miss on these? Whatever it was, I didn't catch it.

 

[Southern Gent]

DaMulta, please state your question or your premise clearly.

 

[DaMulta]

It seems that Christians are very quick to disown 90% of their "perfect" Word of God, as if they would cut out the Old Testament and use only the New Testament. Christians always use this excuse to distance themselves from the heartless brutality of the Old Testament, such as of the killing of women and children at the hands of Moses, Joshua, David, etc.

Yet they are sure quick to whip out Old Testament laws when it is convenient for them to do so. When the time comes for fire and brimstone, when they wish to heap upon us the 10 Commandments, the Creation Story in Genesis that they want to force into our schools, Noah and his Big Boat, or ask us to swallow Jonah and his fish, they will pull out their bibles and open up right to the appropriate Old Testament verse. But when we complain about the war criminal Moses, the infinite cruelty of the Plagues of Egypt and the Pharaoh who was intentionally hardened by God, the butcher Joshua, the criminal David and his murderous raids, Saul the terrible and the murder of the Amalekites and the hewing of the captured king, they say "Well, that's the Old Testament. Jesus came to bring the New Covenant."

Wait a minute... we are talking about THE Bible here. We are talking about the one and only God that the Christians worship, aren't we? Are there two bibles, and two gods? What these Christians are doing is arguing for something that they claim NOT to believe in... namely "moral relativism": they are saying that morality is not fixed, and changes as the times change.

Exactly how do they do this? How do they create two bibles from the one? They say things like: "Jesus said he came to fulfill the law-- the old law passed away." I think what has happened here is that some ministers have intentionally misunderstood the book of Hebrews. It says: "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." (Hebrews 7:12) The laws changed, not passed away. What changed was the need for a daily animal sacrifice (Hebrews 7:27-28). That is what the New Covenant was-- Jesus was a "human sacrifice" for the forgiveness sin, replacing the Old Covenant of sacrificing burnt offerings-- slaughtered animals-- for sins. (Hebrews 8:13). See also all of Chapter 9 of Hebrews, which describes the Old Covenant of burnt offerings, and Chapter 10 which describes how the New Covenant replaces the Old for the purging of sins. THAT is what the New Covenant is all about-- it means that Christians do not have to put on the butcher's apron and slaughter goats, because Jesus became the human sacrifice. That's what was changed. If the Christians are right about the "old laws passing away", then we could do away with the 10 Commandments, couldn't we? The "New Covenant" does not release followers of God from the killing of homosexuals, or witches, blasphemers and the worshippers of other gods either. The leaders of both the Catholic and Protestant Churches knew this when they murdered hundreds of thousands of people just a few hundred years ago.

When Christians throw up the excuse "But that's the Old Testament", I ask: "What do you mean, it's the Old Testament?" Christians say "Well, it was different in those days..." All right then-- how? How was it different, so that cruel wars of extermination and the slaughter of innocent children were perfectly acceptable? Did people value their lives less in those days? The 50,070 who were killed by God for looking into the Ark of the Covenant, the 70,000 innocent men whom God killed because Joseph chose 3 days of pestilence, the hundreds of innocent townspeople murdered by David during his thieving "raids" in Gath, the tens of thousands of children and babies butchered by Moses, Joshua and Saul... and of course, the 42 little children whom God killed for mocking one of his prophets. Did they value their lives less than we do today? In what way were things "different" in those days that made all this okay?

I can understand why Christians would want to divorce the New Testament from the bloody Old Testament. You would have to to be able to maintain any kind of moral rectitude. But honestly, it cannot be done.

The very first chapter of the very first book of the New Testament lists the genealogy of Jesus back to Abraham.

In Matthew Chapter 17, Jesus speaks to Old Testament figures Moses and Elijah, who's figures appeared before him. Moses... the monster who ordered a man's death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath, and who commanded Joshua to enter the Promised Land and leave no one breathing: men, women and children.

Matthew 24:37 is an undeniable link to the brutality of the Old Testament, where Jesus compares his second coming to the destruction of the Great Flood that killed the world's population.

In the New Testament Jesus makes constant references to "scripture". In Matthew 22:29 Jesus says: "You are in error, because you do not know the scriptures, or the power of God." Now, just what were these scriptures that Jesus was making reference to? The New Testament? At the time there was no such thing as a New Testament! There were only the scriptures of bloodthirsty villains like Moses and David. Every reference to "scripture" in the New Testament establishes one more link to the Old Testament. How many times does the New Testament refer to Old Testament "scriptures"? 52 times!

In the New Testament, Abraham is referred to 68 times, the ancient Israelites are mentioned 73 times, Jacob 26 times, Issac 20 times, Elijah 29 times, Isiah 22 times, Noah 8 times, King David is mentioned 58 times. How about this-- the name Mary (not just the Virgin Mary, but ALL Mary's) is mentioned 54 times in the New Testament. The name Moses, on the other hand, appears 80 times! You think these numbers don't establish an important connection? You don't think that Jesus held that the teachings of Moses were important?

How about this. Jesus gives an absolute endorsement of the teachings and laws of Moses. "If you believe Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?" John 5:45

Will any Christian deny that, according to the bible, Jesus is the one and only same personage as the God of the Old Testament? Did Jesus condemn ANY of his father's bloody massacres? No. In Matt 5:48 he says "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect." (Matthew 5:48)

Do you think Jesus would have questioned any of his father's actions, like the many acts of genocide that litter the pages of the Old Testament? No. Remember what Jesus said when he gave the Lord's Prayer to his followers-- "Our Father who art in heaven... thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven."

Do you think Jesus would have ever disobeyed his father's commands, like when he ordered that his servants should "kill everyone that breathes" upon their entry to the Promised Land? No. In John chapter 10 verse 30, Jesus said: "I and the Father are one." Jesus would have been swinging a sword, hacking nonviolent men, women and children to death, right along side of Joshua and his armies of Israelites! Just picture that. Jesus, the Prince of Peace, splitting a small child in two with his blood-drenched sword.

In John 1:1, we read "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." In verse 14, we read: "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us." We are told explicitly that Jesus Christ IS THE GOD OF THE OLD TESTAMENT! You probably already accept this. But, by logical extension, you must also accept therefore that it was Jesus Christ who ordered the Israelites to slaughter millions of defenseless men, women and children in the conquest of Canaan; it was Jesus Christ who killed every firstborn child in Egypt; it was Jesus Christ who ordered king Saul to butcher thousands of children and babies in the genocide of the Amalakites; it was Jesus Christ who ordered the Israelites to capture and mass-rape 32,000 young girls of the Midianite tribe after killing their families; it was Jesus Christ who struck dead 50,000 innocent people at Beshemish for merely looking into the ark of the covenant; it was Jesus Christ who caused the painful asphyxiation of every man, woman, child and animal on the face of the earth during the flood of Noah (with the exception of 8); and it was Jesus Christ who condemned every person ever born to a state of eternal suffering, all because 6000 years ago a curious and naive woman ate a piece of fruit.

 

[HyOnLyph]

That people should not blindly follow the Bible, and to realize a lot of it is just stories too teach you how to live a good full life. Yet, most Christians act like Jefferson ripping parts out of the Bible they don't buy into. Yet, at the same time preach it as the whole Bible is the word of God. To act out against it in anyway (profanity) is just a one way trip to hell.

You didn't realy answer her question. It sounds like you are here to somehow usurp the beliefs of Christians rather than to pose sincere questions. Your tone is decidedly argumentative.

It is certainly a valid position to question the Bible and ponder it's validity. But you are convinced of your position and feel that somehow it is your responsibility to shove it into our face. In fact, you take the very same position that you accuse Christians of, only on your own side and with greater anger.

There are plenty of people here who can debate your position if you are really intersted in discourse. But it looks to me like Lisa had you pegged from the start.

 

[Saintscruiser]

I have a feeling that you will feel the same whether I answer or not. You are very angry, DaMulta. What happened? Don't answer here. Answer to yourself. I hate that you are so bitter......and yes, you are bitter.

A suggestion, if you're open to them. Talk to your pastor. Make an appointment and tell him what's bothering you. I don't think I'm qualified to explain the Old Testament. I'll be the first to admit it to you. I have complete trust in the Godhead, and I'm sorry you don't. If you would like to talk privately, feel free to pm me.

 

[VeeDubb65]

Really? The only thing that changed was he died for our sins, and that we don't have to sacrifice animals anymore in his name.

If we go by the code anything that happened in the old does not stand in the new...Ten Commandments should not matter anymore. It would also release Christians from killing Homosexuals, Fortunetellers, Witches , Nonbelievers, and so on.......

First, the new testament changed a lot more than that. For instance, it completely changed the idea of the sabath, which in fact softened one of the ten commandments.

What this is really about is literalism vs parablism. The reality is that there are VERY few true literalists (those who believe the entire bible is to be taken completely literally) and equally few in the christian community who believe it should be taken as completely parable.

If you are truly a literalist, eating shellfish would be more sinful than homosexuality since it's referenced with the same degree of severity and more often. If you are truly a parablist you wouldn't participate in these kinds of debates.

Most people fall somewhere in between. Personally, as a Catholic, I believe that the bible is far more literal than parable, but certainly contains both. Also, while my faith in God is absolute, my faith in the mortal men who put God's word in writing is far less secure, especially with the early history of the new testament bible.

I think that some of the most important ideals in the bible are those posted by lmrasch. To love each other, and to treat everyone with kindness and humility. (That humility part is a frequent struggle for me)

That being said, just because I think those are the most important ideals, doesn't mean you think they are. A friend of mine told me once that the only way to be in a church where everyone agrees on everything, is to be in a church by yourself. Regardless of your religion, your faith is between you and God. You have to read, study and pray; and come to your own "right answers" in these things. Part of that humility, is recognizing when you see another who is still on that journey, and supporting the journey, even if you don't approve of their route.

 

[VeeDubb65]

And DaMulta, assuming this thread doesn't get locked, I'll be back later to take on your arguments head on, but my lunch break is about over for now. In the mean time, I'd like to point out the biggest and most glaring logical fallacy in your last post.

You said, "The leaders of both the Catholic and Protestant Churches knew this when they murdered hundreds of thousands of people just a few hundred years ago."

The fact that a few hundred years ago, the leaders of various sects of Christianity did terrible and unchristian things, has no bearing on the validity of the Bible, or the meaning of Christianity. It's a complete non sequitur.

 

[DaMulta]

Ok, maybe I am trolling a little, but I really do believe in God. I just It seems that have a very radical view on the Bible. I really see God as Math, and if something can't not be explained in some math problem...well.

I believe in Jesus, but I believe that he was a man. I believe that he was sent to cure our sins, but it's been setup from the time of the big bang for that to happen. I think Mary was rapped, and that explains the virgin birth. Yet, unless she was homorphadite, and she just met all the odds of it happening for her to get pregnant.


What I really look at on with my faith is the teachings of Jesus himself. Even if you are not a Christian one could not throw his teachings out the window.


Yet, what what I'm really trying to get at is if I'm supposed to go along with all of the teachings front to back in the good book. Which ones should one pay attention too, and which ones should be ignored? Who is really to say what is right, and what is wrong in the Bible? In it's history it's been used for good, and evil just like the Koran has been in the history of time.