In defense of JUUL from a 10+ year ECF vet and vapor.. (semi-rant)

[SonnyCrack]

Something I noticed the other day when I was looking at old studies on nicotine and vaping.. I found a study about how nic is absorbed from vaping vs smoking. When I started - what got me off cigs on my crappy 510 cigalike with 3.0 ohm coils was 36 mg, which was quite common in 2011 maybe not as common as 24 or I think the lowest I saw people going was 18mg.. I could not buy a cigalike (NJOY) or others at 36mg I could only get it online which is where I shopped from day 1 because it was cheaper..

Well, back to the study from Febuary 2014 - Nicotine absorption from electronic cigarette use: comparison between first and new-generation devices | Scientific Reports a paragraph that stuck out to me like a sore thumb was this.. "The use of 18 mg/ml nicotine-concentration liquid probably compromises ECs' effectiveness as smoking substitutes; this study supports the need for higher levels of nicotine-containing liquids (approximately 50 mg/ml) in order to deliver nicotine more effectively and approach the nicotine-delivery profile of tobacco cigarettes."

I've never used a JUUL or Nic Salts. The reason is basically most of the long term vapors that I knew in the community were all vaping high power devices at 6mg or lower and thought that the JUUL at 50mg was way too high and overall they didn't seem to like the device... However, vaping had been around for almost 10 years before JUUL came out and made 50ml and a great closed system that actually turned some smokers I know (and millions of other smokers) actually quit smoking. All of them told me that the JUUL was the best thing they tried it actually got rid of all their cravings while mods and other things couldn't (for whatever reasons, too complicated, could satisfy their cravings at 6mg and didn't like all the vaper and tech difficulty)..

I think people that have been into these things for a long time can agree that JUUL was THE device responsible for more smokers quitting than any other brand. I KNOW they are big tobacco and we hate big tobacco but I think that products like JUUL and high nic salts are a VERY effective way of getting smokers to quit that are just beginning their transistion and may just stay with them.

I see them get a lot of flack but I've seen first hand me trying to convert smokers and there was always something about it they didn't like or reason why it didn't satisfy them or just to complicated to use and too cumbersome...

I posted this just because vaping and it's future has been on my mind a lot today.. I still will probably never personally use salts or JUULs but I'm glad they are here and getting it done when the other products just couldn't for whatever reason.

If you agree, great - if not I'd love to know a counter argument (peacefully).

Love you all! Thanks for helping me get off cigs so long ago.

 

[Koolkiz]

I agree about Nic strength. I started vaping in 2010 and started out at 24mg/mL. I wasn't happy so it was increased to 36mg/mL. I started DIY so I could bump up to 42mg/mL. People thought I was crazy but it worked. I'm vaping 2mg/mL now It's mostly hand to mouth habit.

 

[ppeeble]

I think that products like the JUUL have their place and are an easy way for smokers to transition to vaping. A lot of the negativity around high nicotine / low power devices is snobbery (something i too can be accused of - shame on me).
I found my happy place with 12mg liquid at 16w but used 24-36mg when i first started using cartomiser tanks. Switching from pre-made coils to RTA's made sense for me both in the ability to tailor the experience and the huge reduction in costs.. But for a lot of people who simply want an easy and fuss-free alternative to smoking then pods are a natural choice.
As for any association with 'big tobacco' - that has always been a non-issue for me. I started smoking armed with the knowledge that cigarettes are harmful and addictive. I cannot lay the blame for my (ex)addiction at any ones feet but my own. Tobacco companies had a product i desired so i bought it. Previous historic shenanigans were irrelevant - it's been a while since cigarettes were marketed as good for you !

As for a counter-argument.. Well, i suppose pods are bad because; plastic

 

[borno]

I first tried 20mg in a pod mod, but went back and bought som3 50mg. That did it for me when I quit the cigs. I still use some 50 or 35mg when I need a little boost. Vaping a little 50 with my coffee right now to get things going. Kind of like pulling out the choke on a cold morning to start the old engine.

 

[Territoo]

The problem with Juul was not their device, but their early marketing strategy. They came on to the market aimed, not at smokers, but young adults. The teens naturally caught on. By the time they realized their error, it was far too late. Juuling had become a verb among the youth. I don't blame the flavors because adults are attracted to these same flavors too.

 

[Coyote628]

The problem with Juul was not their device, but their early marketing strategy. They came on to the market aimed, not at smokers, but young adults. The teens naturally caught on. By the time they realized their error, it was far too late. Juuling had become a verb among the youth. I don't blame the flavors because adults are attracted to these same flavors too.

Exactly

 

[SonnyCrack]

The problem with Juul was not their device, but their early marketing strategy. They came on to the market aimed, not at smokers, but young adults. The teens naturally caught on. By the time they realized their error, it was far too late. Juuling had become a verb among the youth. I don't blame the flavors because adults are attracted to these same flavors too.

Excellent point however we never heard this argument about BLU who was doing the same exact advertising atleast 8 years previously, they were in marketing in nightclubs atleast back in 2009/1010.. I coach a lot of people as part of my job and a philosophy we all have to live by atleast while at work is "Assume positive intentions". It is possible that because JUUL was a young company, ran by young people that they didn't do this to this with any ill intent. Could we assign positive intent to any of it? Or would it be realistic to say that there ARE young smokers and they didn't see any harm to what they were doing. The 2016 regs were drafted before JUUL was a thing so the ship was already sailing before they came around.

What I'm trying to get to with this post is as mostly experienced vapors on this forum and other places are saying that smokers won't be able to quit with all the new restrictions and I think as long as 50mg Nic Salt is allowed, smokers will still be able to quit relatively painlessly and at a lot better success rates than in 2007-2015...

I still think the new regs are BS - but I also know that me and almost everyone on this forum will be just fine as we know what we want and how to get it if SHTF.

 

[Territoo]

Excellent point however we never heard this argument about BLU who was doing the same exact advertising atleast 8 years previously, they were in marketing in nightclubs atleast back in 2009/1010.. I coach a lot of people as part of my job and a philosophy we all have to live by atleast while at work is "Assume positive intentions". It is possible that because JUUL was a young company, ran by young people that they didn't do this to this with any ill intent. Could we assign positive intent to any of it? Or would it be realistic to say that there ARE young smokers and they didn't see any harm to what they were doing. The 2016 regs were drafted before JUUL was a thing so the ship was already sailing before they came around.

What I'm trying to get to with this post is as mostly experienced vapors on this forum and other places are saying that smokers won't be able to quit with all the new restrictions and I think as long as 50mg Nic Salt is allowed, smokers will still be able to quit relatively painlessly and at a lot better success rates than in 2007-2015...

I still think the new regs are BS - but I also know that me and almost everyone on this forum will be just fine as we know what we want and how to get it if SHTF.

You very well may be right, but I can't speak from experience. When I started vaping, there was the cigalikes like Smoking Everywhere which were weak sauce, but i could tell they had the right idea. The next step were the true mods from which our mods today get their name. The highest nicotine available was 24mg/ml, no salts. You couldn't buy this stuff anywhere but online. No vape shops. ECF was a godsend for information. Now, people had options, but those options have been taken away. The convenience store option may be all they have, and, as you say, they're better than they were in the past.

 

[SonnyCrack]

You very well may be right, but I can't speak from experience. When I started vaping, there was the cigalikes like Smoking Everywhere which were weak sauce, but i could tell they had the right idea. The next step were the true mods from which our mods today get their name. The highest nicotine available was 24mg/ml, no salts. You couldn't buy this stuff anywhere but online. No vape shops. ECF was a godsend for information. Now, people had options, but those options have been taken away. The convenience store option may be all they have, and, as you say, they're better than they were in the past.

Yeah - Smoking Everywhere was TRASH!! hahah I remember those and they were so expensive. BLU wasn't any better.. I personally have to thank JUUL for getting my 72 year old mother off of cigarettes after 50 years.. I gave her atleast 10 devices and every kind of freebase nicotine possible and nothing worked until the JUUL. She loves hers and vaped menthol from the beginning and continues to do so. I even bicker with her about getting a different device and NIC salt to save money but she likes going to her gas station and buying her pods... I've never tried NIC salt and don't plan to but I'm glad they exist and from my understanding is people even get the same "nic buzz" that I haven't experienced since I quit smoking... I'm VERY upset about all these new regs especially on flavors but I know I have 2 liters of 100mg nicotine in my freezer and finally started DIYing which I've been to lazy to do in the last decade... I made my first juice and now I'm ...... I didn't start doing this years ago.. lol

 

[Myrany]

I think the thing most of us need to revisit is that no one product works for every single person. JUUL has its place and works for some people. The VUSE cigalike has its place and works for some people. Others prefer Mods.

There is no right or wrong device or brand. The focus really needs to be on pairing the smoker with the right device for them.

Unfortunately in the current climate there is only one choice that has met the FDA's requirements for a marketing order. Unless that changes many people will be left without the ability to find something that actually does work for them.

Add to that the postal shipping ban and the proposed high taxes. I really can see many smokers saying to themselves why bother trying. Particularly if the VUSE wasn't the right match for them.

 

[Territoo]

If the nicotine tax passes, it will affect BP products like Vuse and Juul too. This may price them out of business as well. They don't have large volumes of nicotine but they do have high concentration. If I recall, the tax breaks down to $2.78 per mg. A Juul has 3ml of 50mg/ml. That's 2.78 x 150= $417 per pod.

 

[Rossum]

If I recall, the tax breaks down to $2.78 per mg. A Juul has 3ml of 50mg/ml. That's 2.78 x 150= $417 per pod.

No, that's not correct. IIRC, it worked out to $2780 per liter of 100 mg base, with would be $2.78 per ml of 100 mg base. A single Juul pod contains 0.7 ml of 59 mg/ml, so the tax on a single Juul pod would be something like 42 cents.

Now I've not been keeping up like I was, but I thought I heard that the current tax proposal is roughly double what it was previously, which would make the tax on a single Juul pod close to $1.00.

 

[somdcomputerguy]

It is possible that because JUUL was a young company, ran by young people..

I think it's due more to their early marketing strategy..

 

[somdcomputerguy]

No, that's not correct. IIRC, it worked out to $2780 per liter of 100 mg base, with would be $2.78 per ml of 100 mg base.

Wow! I thought it was about a $100 tax per 1810 mgs of nic. That would be a $5,500 tax on a liter of 100 mg/ml. I stopped reading about it shortly after I became aware of that, maybe things have changed..

 

[Territoo]

No, that's not correct. IIRC, it worked out to $2780 per liter of 100 mg base, with would be $2.78 per ml of 100 mg base. A single Juul pod contains 0.7 ml of 59 mg/ml, so the tax on a single Juul pod would be something like 42 cents.

Now I've not been keeping up like I was, but I thought I heard that the current tax proposal is roughly double what it was previously, which would make the tax on a single Juul pod close to $1.00.

I stand corrected on the amount of nicotine in a Juul pod. It is 50mg/ml at 0.7ml or 40mg. The $2.78 is outdated info, but the current rate per CASAA is $100.66 per 1,810mg of nicotine ($0.05/mg). 0.05 x40 is $2. Not near as scary as previously, but one pod is taxed higher than a pack of cigarettes, not counting state and local taxes.

 

[UncleJunkle]

dup post

 

[UncleJunkle]

No, that's not correct. IIRC, it worked out to $2780 per liter of 100 mg base

There's a new shakedown bill proposed for a national vape tax that would tax nic base at $0.05/mg so a 1 liter bottle of nic would be taxed at $5K.

https://casaa.org/call-to-action/stop-an-excessive-federal-tax-on-safer-nicotine-products/

 

[Territoo]

 

[Rossum]

There is a new shakedown tax proposal that puts it somewhere to around $5,000 put liter. IIRC.

Sounds like I'm gonna have to put my nicotine freezer in a safe!

 

[UncleJunkle]

Sounds like I'm gonna have to put my nicotine freezer in a safe!

no joke