Is the PMTA as scary as many think it is?

[UncLeJunkLe]

Not to mention, while all seems "normal" in the vaposphere right now, the fact is some online shops (and I suspect B&M stores) have closed their doors as a result of PMTA. Also, some retailers have severely limited their stock to only products that have an accepted PMTA (Halo being a prime example, with very limited stock of both juice and hardware). There are a few threads on this forum of folks kinda panicking because their favorite juice vendor either went out to business or no longer carries (because of lack of PMTA) the brand/flavor of juice they've been vaping for years.

Did SHTF? Not exactly, but it did hit some people in the face.

Besides as others have mentioned, what the FDA does is almost irrelevant as state govts have proven to a bigger threat than the FDA in terms of total vape bans and exorbitant taxes.

Also paypal is putting a hurtin' on Chinese, UK and AU vape retailers.

 

[zoiDman]

Not to mention, while all seems "normal" in the vaposphere right now, the fact is some online shops (and I suspect B&M stores) have closed their doors as a result of PMTA. Also, some retailers have severely limited their stock to only products that have an accepted PMTA (Halo being a prime example, with very limited stock of both juice and hardware). There are a few threads on this forum of folks kinda panicking because their favorite juice vendor either went out to business or no longer carries (because of lack of PMTA) the brand/flavor of juice they've been vaping for years.

Did SHTF? Not exactly, but it did hit some people in the face.

Besides as others have mentioned, what the FDA does is almost irrelevant as state govts have proven to a bigger threat than the FDA in terms of total vape bans and exorbitant taxes.

Also paypal is putting a hurtin' on Chinese, UK and AU vape retailers.

I can Agree with everything you said. With the Exception of that Last Sentence.

Because Not Every State is Inaction Draconian Bans. So a State might not feel the Need to Remove a Product from the Entire Retail space (they might want to use it More as a Tax Vehicle), but if the FDA gives the product a Thumbs Down on it's PMTA, then it is Gone.

And there Isn't Anyone who can bring it back. Except our Friends at the FDA.

So Yeah, some States are going to throw up Roadblocks. No Doubt about it. But the FDA will have the Final say as to whether there is even a Road or Not.

 

[Vapeon4Life]

The $64,000 Question to me is will Zeller suck-up enough to stay as the CTP Head? And in this case, Sucking-Up to the Incoming President/HHS Secretary means taking a much Harder Line on e-Cigarettes than he is taking right now.

The main question I ask is whether that famous billionaire control freak, Mickey Blumborg [SIC], who has spent billions to control tobacco, vaping, and guns, will again start the pressure on some of the Democratic {and Republican?} congressmen that he has helped finance
- supposedly the PMTA which was going to be delayed another two years, was legally forced to act sooner because of legal pressure financed by him.

Biden is old, but I believe he is reasonable - Has stated if proven harmful he would not have a problem outlawing vaping entirely - Otherwise he does not remind me of an anti-vape fanatic and if the industry continues to show that vamping in in fact a 'harm reduction' product, may agree to not enforcing over the top regulation - Of course we don't know yet.

With many thousends of vapers and the US so divided politically - some politicians may think twice about antagonizing America's vapers - We vote too !!!

 

[UncLeJunkLe]

Biden is old, but I believe he is reasonable

What about Kamala?

 

[zoiDman]

The main question I ask is whether that famous billionaire control freak, Mickey Blumborg [SIC], who has spent billions to control tobacco, vaping, and guns, will again start the pressure on some of the Democratic {and Republican?} congressmen that he has helped finance
- supposedly the PMTA which was going to be delayed another two years, was legally forced to act sooner because of legal pressure financed by him.

Biden is old, but I believe he is reasonable - Has stated if proven harmful he would not have a problem outlawing vaping entirely - Otherwise he does not remind me of an anti-vape fanatic and if the industry continues to show that vamping in in fact a 'harm reduction' product, may agree to not enforcing over the top regulation - Of course we don't know yet.

With many thousends of vapers and the US so divided politically - some politicians may think twice about antagonizing America's vapers - We vote too !!!

With No Election on the Horizon, and with the Year e-Cigarettes have had in the media, I Don't Think that Bloomberg needs to pass out too many Drums for the e-Cigarettes Naysayers to beat. They seem to have their own Drumline already.

As for Biden? Well... his beloved Son died of Cancer. So (Good - Bad - or Indifferent) I'm Not Sure how receptive he will be towards Anything that contains Nicotine?

He Doesn't have much History for THC. Seems like He is kinda Binary when it comes to Smoking/Nicotine use. You either Don't, and that's Good. Or you Do, and you Shouldn't.

 

[Vapeon4Life]

As for Biden? Well... his beloved Son died of Cancer. So (Good - Bad - or Indifferent) I'm Not Sure how receptive he will be towards Anything that contains Nicotine?

Yes, but remember one of big selling points for switching to vaping is the fact that vape contains very low, if any, carcinogens:
Levels of selected carcinogens and toxicants in vapor from electronic cigarettes
"
Results
We found that the e-cigarette vapors contained some toxic substances. The levels of the toxicants were 9 to 450 times lower than in cigarette smoke and were, in many cases, comparable to trace amounts found in the reference product.

Conclusions
Our findings are consistent with the idea that substituting tobacco cigarettes with electronic cigarettes may substantially reduce exposure to selected tobacco-specific toxicants........"
Levels of selected carcinogens and toxicants in vapor from electronic cigarettes

Now tell me how anyone can deny vaping is a reduced harm way of using tobacco !!!

 

[somdcomputerguy]

Now tell me how anyone can deny vaping is a reduced harm way of using tobacco !!!

If the suits don't make money off it, it's bad. Besides, the children need to be protected.

 

[Vapeon4Life]

If the suits don't make money off it, it's bad. Besides, the children need to be protected.

Seems to me vaping was becoming a big and profitable business - At least several major tobacco companies such as Reynolds were promoting vaping big time, I still get promotional ads in the mail from Reynolds. I don't think the suits of big tobacco had any problem with switching their profits to vape.

Problem began when some of these companies let the vape smoke and profits go to their heads - They started advertising and promoting vape like they were back in the 1950s
and could push vape like they did with cigarettes.

The tobacco nazis were furious - First to them there is no sucn thing as a safer tobacco product {All of Reynolds products admitted that on their packaging as well as 'Nicotine is an addictive chemical'.

There the tobacco nazis had something - Why should kids become addicted to nicotine? Addiction to cheap fast food, overeating, and Marijuana {supposedly non-addictive} seems unimportant - But it is important. Overeating and obesity has been listed as the second most common cause of 'self caused' death next to cigarette smoking.

I have no problem with health warnings, age restrictions to keep vapes out of the hands of kids, etc.

Otherwise:

"DON'T TREAD ON ME"

 

[DaveOno]

Biden said he would be following the science, in regards to the virus.

Shouldn't he also follow the science in vaping?

And by now, shouldn't we in the vaping world have the data from the science?

One last thought about the vendors who continue to sell non-submitted stuff. A Prosecutor could come in, audit the books, and charge them, and possible fines retroactively.

 

[somdcomputerguy]

Seems to me vaping was becoming a big and profitable business..

It was becoming big and profitable, just not to the states and governments and other entities that were making money from cigarettes and all of their 'after-effects'.

Problem began when some of these companies let the vape smoke and profits go to their heads..

There certainly was a few bad apples in the barrel, and that definitely didn't help us.

 

[zoiDman]

Yes, but remember one of big selling points for switching to vaping is the fact that vape contains very low, if any, carcinogens:
Levels of selected carcinogens and toxicants in vapor from electronic cigarettes
"
Results
We found that the e-cigarette vapors contained some toxic substances. The levels of the toxicants were 9 to 450 times lower than in cigarette smoke and were, in many cases, comparable to trace amounts found in the reference product.

Conclusions
Our findings are consistent with the idea that substituting tobacco cigarettes with electronic cigarettes may substantially reduce exposure to selected tobacco-specific toxicants........"
Levels of selected carcinogens and toxicants in vapor from electronic cigarettes

Now tell me how anyone can deny vaping is a reduced harm way of using tobacco !!!

But Don't You Get It?

They just Omitted the Fact that e-Cigarette use is viable THR. And Focus on "the science" that people like former UCSF Azz Hat Slantz has published.

Then there is the entire "Save the Children" thing. Where the Numbers (albeit questionably obtained) are kinda Eye Popping. Couple that with the Intentional Confusing of the term "Vaping" to refer to people who use Street e-Carts and have gotten Seriously Ill and e-Cigarettes are 8 out of 10 counts from a TKO.

And the Deeming Rule Set/PMTA sham process will take care of the Other 2 Counts.

Face it, they Don't Give a Flying Fluck if you Die from Smoking. And Biden's Party has a Long History of being on the Other Side of allowing Adults to choose a Better Alternative to sparking up a smoke.

So I just Don't see our friend Joe coming in and doing Anything to let e-Cigarettes survive for Anyone except BT.

 

[zoiDman]

Biden said he would be following the science, in regards to the virus.

Shouldn't he also follow the science in vaping?

And by now, shouldn't we in the vaping world have the data from the science?

One last thought about the vendors who continue to sell non-submitted stuff. A Prosecutor could come in, audit the books, and charge them, and possible fines retroactively.

Notice the use of the word "before" in this Biden quote...

“serious scientific data as to whether or not it has the kind of long-term damage on the lungs and it causes death before we allow it to be sold,”

Joe Biden Says He Would Halt Vaping Sales Pending More Research

And then the Next Day there was this...

Joe Biden Suggests He Would “Eliminate” Vaping If Elected

BTW - Some people wonder whether or not old Joe understood the Question that was asked of him in the above linked townhall? And some feel that he might have Initially started to answer the question as "Vaping" of THC. And then finished his answer (after it dawned on him) that the question was about Nicotine Use.

 

[Vapeon4Life]

Notice the use of the word "before" in this Biden quote...

“serious scientific data as to whether or not it has the kind of long-term damage on the lungs and it causes death before we allow it to be sold,”

Joe Biden Says He Would Halt Vaping Sales Pending More Research

And then the Next Day there was this...

Joe Biden Suggests He Would “Eliminate” Vaping If Elected

BTW - Some people wonder whether or not old Joe understood the Question that was asked of him in the above linked townhall? And some feel that he might have Initially started to answer the question as "Vaping" of THC. And then finished his answer (after it dawned on him) that the question was about Nicotine Use.

I gave Trump credit for one thing - His compromise with the wolves who wanted to outlaw all flavors, if not all vapes, and just outlawed the easy to load flavored cartridges, may have at least temporarlly saved the industry.

Every time I bring up the political subject on a vape forum 'cause I noticed it was the Democrats, more so than Republicans, and on a state and federal level, who seem to be voting the control/prohibitionist way
- I get attacked by Liberals who want us to keep the blinders on.

I did vote for Biden/Harris because I believe Trump has become ???????? - BUT left the rest of my ballot blank - Biden by himself can not kill an entire industry - But if the Democrats had taken over the Senate they might - One day the Democratic Party may wake up and find that it is not their left wing economics that cause people to vote for the other party - NO it is their 'control freak' agendas which are often worse than the Conservatives, who accept for abortion and such, are more liberal than the Dems.

Of course the fact that the Democratic party is being funded by a super billionaire control freak, Mickey Blumborg [SIC}, who hates tobacco and the Second Amendment, might be quite significant.

 

[stols001]

NVM

Sigh.

Someone would "get it' and it ain't gonna be me

 

[zoiDman]

... Biden by himself can not kill an entire industry - But if the Democrats had taken over the Senate they might - ...

I guess it gets down to How one Defines the word "Kill"?

If Biden inserts HHS/FDA leadership who are Not Receptive to e-Cigarettes potential, something that about Everyone thinks he will, then things are going to be Pretty Bleak for who use an e-Cigarette.

And Smokers now will have Very Few Choices if they want to try to Switch. And what choices they have will be Sub-Par at best.

But on the Bright Side, all those Sate/Fed Tobacco Tax Dollars and MSA Payment will keep Rolling in. And in Todays priorities for many, that Outweighs less important things like Mortality Rates or Quality of Live indexes.

Don't expect Biden's HHS/FDA to do e-Cigarette users or the e-Cigarette Market any favors. It just Isn't who he is. Or what the Party Line has Always been.

 

[retired1]

Some of you are letting your toes creep across the political discussion line. As a reminder, it has absolutely no place in the general forums. Want to talk politics? Take it to Outside.

 

[Kwahrk]

Well, the politicians DO write the laws, so...
Just sayin'

 

[zoiDman]

Then it's Kinda hard to Talk about who is going to Head-Up the HHS and the FDA (both of which are Political Appointments) or what Effect an Incoming Administration will have on e-Cigarette Users or the e-Cigarette Market in General.

This thread was Basically Dead. And even when it was Active, I Don't think any Lines were Crossed.

 

[Vapeon4Life]

Some of you are letting your toes creep across the political discussion line. As a reminder, it has absolutely no place in the general forums. Want to talk politics? Take it to Outside.

I know how heated and argumentative the politics of anything can become and can see why you want to limit it in general discussion.
But why not try this - how about a section devoted specifically to 'The Politics of Vaping" ???
We are voters and citizens too and should be able to understand what is going on in the political process attempting to control, limit, and/or even outlaw vaping such as the nation of India did ???

 

[zoiDman]

...

My Crystal Ball says that there will be a Lull from now until Biden names his HHS Secretary/FDA Commissionaire. And then we will see a Surge of Activity with regards to e-Cigarette Enforcement and PMTA Processing.

...

Just an FYI.

Biden is going to present California Attorney General Xavier Becerra as his choice for the Secretary of Health and Human Services.

Biden Picks California Attorney General Xavier Becerra For Top Health Post

Becerra Isn't exactly a Friend to e-Cigarette Users. Or the e-Cigarette Market in General. And I'm sure the fine folks at JUUL weren't thrilled when they heard who Biden picked.