Is the whole scandal with da and ap overblown? Some numbers inside

[zoiDman]

Are you for or against regulations? On the one hand you offer unrealistic scenarios of whats being put in the juice then,
you rail against what the FDA did concerning cigarettes. Which is it? I wish you would offer some proof of of substandard
ingredients being used in e-juice. You might want to correct me if I am wrong but,biodiesel is a mixture of used cooking
oils and diesel fuel although you could use VG I think. I'd think it awfully expensive to turn it back into VG. VG can be
made out of recycled cooking oils but its forbidden by law to be used for human consumption. Everything else doesn't make
any sense. After a point adding more flavor would be a non-starter. I think you are referring to Polystyrene containers.
The only thing I would put in one of them is my beer and my bait.

Regards
Mike

Kinda hard to Answer that Question. Seeing that we Don't Know what the FDA might do Regulation wise?

I can see where some Regulations could be Beneficial to the Vaping Community. And I can see how some may be Used to Collapse the current Industry as a means to hand it over to BT and Big Vape.

Have to wait to see Exactly the FDA proposes to have any Opinion on Any Specific Line Item/Proposed Rule.

And I Don't think we have Very Long to Wait.

https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/threads/deeming-regulations-now-on-omb-dashboard.708239/

 

[Rossum]

You might want to correct me if I am wrong but, biodiesel is a mixture of used cooking oils and diesel fuel although you could use VG I think. I'd think it awfully expensive to turn it back into VG.

Biodiesel is made from various vegetable oils (including used cooking oil). Almost all diesel fuel sold in Europe and a considerable fraction of the diesel fuel sold in the US is composed of a mixture of biodiesel and conventional (petroleum-based) diesel. VG is a byproduct of biodiesel production, but the VG that comes from this process is nasty, low-quality stuff.

 

[stevegmu]

Good VG comes from nuts, rather than vegetable oils...

 

[Trayce]

It is not your or my job to inform new vapers of any thing with out the proof to back it up.

Imo flavors should have an ingredient label just like food labels. Then there wouldn't have to be this big to-do about any particular ingredient, especially since things will come up about other chems in the future. Just read the label and decide if you want to buy that flavor or not based on the current knowledge at the time.

It is also possible that future flavors will start containing POSITIVE ingredients a vapor might WANT. Ingredients that promote lung health, for example. Maybe eventually, even nanobots that reverse lung damage. Heck, one day there might be nanobot-infused diacetyl so you can have your custard and vape it too. All the flavor, none of the risk. Seriously though, it can cut both ways. Ingredients don't have to be viewed as a nasty secret to hide, they can be flipped around as a marketing tool once vaping is embraced instead of demonized [by the gvt] as tobacco's evil cousin.

But disclosure is a positive thing. You walk into a grocery store and pick up a food item, and if it has corn syrup you may not buy it... but it does not have to say on the front: "CAUTION, CONTAINS CORN SYRUP!" Then you pick up its competition and maybe it's made with raw sugar instead or even Stevia... and that's the one you buy. Or if you like corn syrup, you get that one.

It's all about making an informed decision, but piece-mealing the chems is a mistake as we have already learned. First it was diacetyl... then the replacements AP/Acetonin were found to revert to diacetyl, so now those are on the poop list for some vapers ... (and btw, far fewer companies reveal acetonin than A/P or diacetyl). But remove all three of those from the equation and the chem used for a custard note is butyric acid... which happens to be an irritant when inhaled, as revealed by TFA on their site (even though they use it, obviously to avoid using the other stuff ppl are concerned about).

And frankly, while dicetyl never bothered me, butyric acid does. So now I want to avoid BA too.

FlavourArt tests for dicacetyl and A/P but no mention of acetonin or BA.... mycleanvape only sells liquids that are dicaetyl, A/P and acetonin-free, but they don't mention BA, etc...

TFA happily mentions when a flavor contains ANY of these (which is why it's always been my go-to vendor)... but it just seems easier at this point to just list ALL ingredients and let vapers choose flavors based on those labels... or based on the flavor name and picture, if they don't care.

Frankly diacetyl felt much nicer to vape than any of its replacements (but then radiator fluid goes down easier than vodka so not saying this is proof of anything), so I wish a definitive study could be done with people, not animals. Many people would volunteer who already think it isn't a problem. And as many others have mentioned, you don't have to wait for serious lung disease to see damage is being done... there would be subtler changes much earlier that would be good enough evidence to avoid diacetyl, if that was the case.

In the meantime I am erring on the side of caution, not knowing if it's really a problem or not. I still think I exhale most of everything I inhale, which leaves little to be absorbed. But I am no scientist.

That's my nickel on it.

 

[skoony]

Biodiesel is made from various vegetable oils (including used cooking oil). Almost all diesel fuel sold in Europe and a considerable fraction of the diesel fuel sold in the US is composed of a mixture of biodiesel and conventional (petroleum-based) diesel. VG is a byproduct of biodiesel production, but the VG that comes from this process is nasty, low-quality stuff.

Thanks for the info. I will check it out but I am sure any VG resulting from biodiesel production
would be considered and labeled unsafe for human consumption the same as VG made from recycled
cooking oils.
Regards
Mike

 

[skoony]

It is also possible that future flavors will start containing POSITIVE ingredients a vapor might WANT. Ingredients that promote lung health, for example. Maybe eventually, even nanobots that reverse lung damage. Heck, one day there might be nanobot-infused diacetyl so you can have your custard and vape it too.

If in fact this happens its all over. There is a study indicating this is a possibility.
If vaping helps improve lung conditions (there is antidotel evidence it does) it
would be considered medicine and a pharmaceutical product.

It's all about making an informed decision,

The problem with informed decision is who gets to define what the consumer is being informed of.
Its one of those things that sounds great on paper but,extremely hard to list on a 30 ml bottle.
So what you wind up with is a warning label that will probably say "some ingredients are known
to cause popcorn lung". Informed decision,transparency and, the customer is always right are
things that all sound great but,rarely work as advertised in the real world. The former being used
as an excuse for regulation,the two later used as an excuse for a customer to act like a jerk.

Regards
Mike

 

[Jman8]

Imo flavors should have an ingredient label just like food labels. Then there wouldn't have to be this big to-do about any particular ingredient, especially since things will come up about other chems in the future. Just read the label and decide if you want to buy that flavor or not based on the current knowledge at the time.

Who should be responsible for ingredient labels on flavors?

It would make most sense for the manufacturer of the flavor to do this, and not someone further along in the chain. With current knowledge, it would also make sense for flavor manufacturers to have a label that says, "not intended for inhalation" or along lines of, "not determined to be safe for inhalation." Then if someone still wishes to sell it with idea that its buyers will likely be inhaling it, I would say the buyers are responsible. They would already know that it is not determined to be safe for inhalation, despite bucket loads of anecdotal evidence that suggests otherwise.

I don't see a time every coming about when any ingredient (and I do mean any) in eLiquid will not be scrutinized and deemed "health risk." As that is currently the case and I am saying will always be the case, then those who may disagree with this and think we may one day live in a world where people praise / celebrate the use of eLiquid (for inhalation), then there really isn't a need to list ingredients, cause in reality, that means listing every single chemical, even the non detectable ones. Some (companies) may still do this, and that would seem to be helpful, but given the "anti" factor, I foresee those companies being incessantly attacked for literally every chemical they have noted as in there (or as undetectable).

If like food labels, it would list "may contain DAP" somewhere on label, to provide information that some say they need. FDA would have information on exact amounts of that, but consumer likely won't, unless company chooses to disclose that.

I also wonder if DIY "should" list all ingredients on those bottles. I'm thinking the answer to that is no, but also would just show that the buyer doesn't really need that to enjoy their vape, and make a decision. Arguably, the DIY would be the least informed if no labels are needed there and are not regularly used in practice. And if using flavors marked "not safe for inhalation," then DIY would be facing same risk as everyone, but arguing that they are okay with taking that risk.

And likely concluding that the whole scandal with da and ap is overblown.

 

[Moonbogg]

http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/wa...-harmful-chemicals-b99583582z1-334833961.html

People are taking notice, finally.

 

[zoiDman]

http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/wa...-harmful-chemicals-b99583582z1-334833961.html

People are taking notice, finally.

This is my Favorite part of that Article.

"Vape Apes co-owner Damien Thompson said he screens the outside brands as best he can but can't control what other e-liquid makers use. As for his in-house brand, he buys flavors from a few different manufacturers — Michigan-based LorAnn Oils and California-based Capellas Flavors and Flavor West — and says he trusts them not to sell hazardous chemicals.

"When I'm asking them the ingredients in their liquid, and when they tell me it's not in there, I know it's not," Thompson said. "I don't need to pay someone and take money out of my wallet to have it tested. I wouldn't trust (a testing lab) any more than I would trust the company making it."

The Journal Sentinel bought five e-liquids dubbed top-sellers by sales clerks at vape shops around Milwaukee — including Foghorn's Randy and a Vape Apes house brand called Goji Melonberry — and had them tested for diacetyl and 2,3-pentanedione.

The results: All five contained both chemicals. And Foghorn's Randy had levels well above those that scientists say can destroy lungs, according to analyses by two labs.

Kyle Ehlert, co-founder of West Allis-based Foghorn, said he expected his flavor suppliers would have alerted him if there were dangerous ingredients in their products. He uses some of the same suppliers as Thompson at Vape Apes.

"I just figured they would give you the kind without it," Ehlert said. "I just assumed they would know it had diacetyl in it and give you something else or tell you about it." "

LOL

 

[Moonbogg]

Yes LOL indeed. He assumed someone else would be looking out for his best interests, and the customers he sells his juice to are assuming that he is looking out for their best interests, but in the end, vapers lose. We are the ones who end up with a busted pair of lungs that no longer work and everyone else will just throw up their hands (after counting all that money they made) and say something like, "Um, I duno man. Sorry. I thought it was safe"

"Someone told someone who told someone else that it was safe, but now your lungs are busted and I got rich. Sorry bro, vape on"

 

[zoiDman]

Yes LOL indeed. He assumed someone else would be looking out for his best interests, and the customers he sells his juice to are assuming that he is looking out for their best interests, but in the end, vapers lose. We are the ones who end up with a busted pair of lungs that no longer work and everyone else will just throw up their hands (after counting all that money they made) and say something like, "Um, I duno man. Sorry. I thought it was safe"

"Someone told someone who told someone else that it was safe, but now your lungs are busted and I got rich. Sorry bro, vape on"

Yeah... I am Constantly Amazed that someone can sell a product that people are going to put Directly in their Lungs and the Seller Doesn't Feel, or have any Desire, to know what Exactly is in the Product that they are Selling.

It's Funny. Because if this was Any Other type of Consumable Product, most people would be Concerned. But because they are a "Juice" seller, some will give them a Pass. And some will even Defend their Actions.

 

[Dixie1954]

I am not going to read this whole thread - but have any of you heard of "consumer beware"? If you have problems with certain flavoring brands do not buy them or buy any juice that you know (or find out) that use them - riiiiiiiiiight?? I figure it is up to the people using the said product to decide if they feel ok using/buying it. I just am very glad I make my own juice and use the flavoring brands I feel ok using. Luckily I use tiny amounts of flavorings because no one knows if any of them are really ok to vape, now do they?? Cigarettes did not cause immediate problems for most people that smoked them so why do people think oh well we have vaped for so many years and no problems yet - must mean they are safe. IMHO the safest way to vape is 0 flavorings but I am not going to do that. Oh BTW I am not defending anyone I just feel that as with anything a person chooses to do they should do some research, after that it is on them as it is on me.

 

[zoiDman]

I am not going to read this whole thread - but have any of you heard of "consumer beware"? If you have problems with certain flavoring brands do not buy them or buy any juice that you know (or find out) that use them - riiiiiiiiiight?? I figure it is up to the people using the said product to decide if they feel ok using/buying it. I just am very glad I make my own juice and use the flavoring brands I feel ok using. Luckily I use tiny amounts of flavorings because no one knows if any of them are really ok to vape, now do they?? Cigarettes did not cause immediate problems for most people that smoked them so why do people think oh well we have vaped for so many years and no problems yet - must mean they are safe. IMHO the safest way to vape is 0 flavorings but I am not going to do that. Oh BTW I am not defending anyone I just feel that as with anything a person chooses to do they should do some research, after that it is on them as it is on me.

I fully agree with Most of what you are Saying.

The Big Breakdown occurs when a Person asks if a Certain Chemical is in a e-liquid (or the e-Liquid is Marketed as ____ Free), is Told it Isn't, but in Actuality It Is. Because now the Informed Choice thing, and the Consumer Beware concept, kinda go right out the Window.

 

[Jman8]

...and then after told it could be in there, and told that there have been no (legitimate) cases of harm, that they still want more to be done. They want Industry Beware concepts to be put into place, and if that won't work, then all consumers ought to be aware of the potential harm, so we can fight those greedy .......s together. It's an avoidable risk after all, and they must do all they can do so I can avoid it. This whole scandal would be avoided if they just did all the work, and I do none. And if they drag their feet at all, I have every reason to be very vocal about this given the great amount of harm that has happened, nay could happen!

I do not like avoidable risks in my products when I have to do any work in the process to figure out what's in there. Especially when there is no actual harm associated with those potential risks.

But keep the nicotine please.

 

[Trayce]

I fully agree with Most of what you are Saying.

The Big Breakdown occurs when a Person asks if a Certain Chemical is in a e-liquid (or the e-Liquid is Marketed as ____ Free), is Told it Isn't, but in Actuality It Is. Because now the Informed Choice thing, and the Consumer Beware concept, kinda go right out the Window.

This is why I think flavor manufacturers should have to list the chems in their flavors. Period. Though that still leaves the problem of the accuracy of the lab that does the testing. But you have to start somewhere.

 

[zoiDman]

This is why I think flavor manufacturers should have to list the chems in their flavors. Period. Though that still leaves the problem of the accuracy of the lab that does the testing. But you have to start somewhere.

Some have made Efforts to. TFA is one that Comes to Mind.

 

[Trayce]

Some have made Efforts to. TFA is one that Comes to Mind.

Which is why they are the only place I ever buy from, (with the exception of one order to ECX recently to get some tobacco flavors from other vendors, since I don't care for TFAs tobacco's). But I appreciate the effort TFA makes to disclose their ingredients.

 

[Trayce]

If in fact this happens its all over. There is a study indicating this is a possibility. If vaping helps improve lung conditions (there is antidotel evidence it does) it would be considered medicine and a pharmaceutical product.

I don't see how that leap can be made in the way you seem to be implying (i.e. of vaping then becoming unavailable to the public). Grain is considered healthy for digestion but whole wheat bread is not considered medicine. The vaper of the future might very well add this or that ingredient to their juice in the same way you add an apple to your diet or fiber. More "health," less "medicine" IYKWIM. OTOH I can also see mods being used as a drug delivery systems in hospitals in certain situations, and at home for those that prefer it, where prescriptions have been given.

A mod is like a glass. It's just a delivery system and by itself is not bound to any category, imo.

 

[Jman8]

I don't see how that leap can be made in the way you seem to be implying (i.e. of vaping then becoming unavailable to the public). Grain is considered healthy for digestion but whole wheat bread is not considered medicine. The vaper of the future might very well add this or that ingredient to their juice in the same way you add an apple to your diet or fiber. More "health," less "medicine" IYKWIM. OTOH I can also see mods being used as a drug delivery systems in hospitals in certain situations, and at home for those that prefer it, where prescriptions have been given.

A mod is like a glass. It's just a delivery system and by itself is not bound to any category, imo.

I don't see how you can't see the connection @skoony made. He said "if vaping helps improve lung conditions...it would be considered medicine." So, if you have a product that knowingly does that, you are likely wanting to advertise it as such. If you did that today with eCigs, you'd be broadcasting to the FDA, "please regulate our product as a medical item." Otherwise, you just have to assume that people know that benefit, and not market it as such, and be 'happy' that your tobacco product has that benefit, even while you can't tell anyone about that via advertising.

Kinda like the whole smoking cessation thing. Like 4 years ago (or maybe this was yesterday) when lots of products contained DA / AP and people loved flavors and because of that they were able to cease smoking or reduce craving significantly. Way back then, marketers of eCig products who were proud of their (DAP laced) products wanted to tell the world about this item that will help you to cease smoking, but once FDA got wind of it, they sought to confiscate the product as a non registered drug delivery product. Yada yada yada, Soterra decision said it is was more like a tobacco product than a medicinal product and said back off FDA. Back off! So, now we live in a world where many know it will help you reduce smoking cravings, but you can't advertise it in that way.

Which makes one wonder if you had DAP-free product, could you advertise that in such a way to claim there is a health benefit to using that product, and if so, are you then making a claim that renders the product a medicinal product? Whereas tobacco products (of the smoking kind) have DA in them, and are sold as is, a recreational choice for adults to decide on whether they wish to use them, risk(s) and all.

 

[Strangebrew]

We all have breathed the same air, opps... glad ya' didn't hear that.