Is water a 'good' or 'bad' thing?

[GeorgeS]

Greetings,

While experimenting with my base juices and thinking that I may need to 'thin' a 100% VG base, just for kicks I filled a 5ml tank with 1ml DI-water and the other +4ml with the 100% VG base.

The result was: I was able to run at a much higher wattage (and vapor production) than what I was before without getting a burnt taste and the juice seemed 'more effective' as I could feel the effect of the nicotine after a few puffs.

It makes me wonder, is the smaller DI-Water vapor absorbing into my system more effectively?

Odd it seems most flavors are ether alcohol or PG based and not water based?

 

[WonderDude32]

I am not a chemist but I will give you a theory. Most liquids need a medium that will sustain the other ingredients added to it without it separating quickly. PG and VG do this very effectively as do oils. The breakdown of the additives in to water would lead to a separation that would require you to agitate the bottle for some time to get an even distribution. Without the proper amount of shaking, the liquid becomes inconsistent and you as a customer would be upset that some juice is good while others you could barely taste. Technically, you don't need any water at all as you could use dry flavoring. Your measurements would have to be so precise that you need lab equipment to do it to achieve the same results every time. This is an educated guess at best and I have no scientific proof of any of it. Just my mind.

 

[93gc40]

WELL that vapor has ALWAYS been mostly water. It's one of the MAIN selling points of the E-Cigarette. There are 2 main ways most use to thin juice, water or alcohol........ I would think water vapor would be preferred. You do realize, you BREATH water vapor all day long. Unless you live somewhere with ZERO humidity, I guess. Water also RAISEes the temperatures needed for create vapor. So you need to apply more power to achieve LIKE results.

 

[classwife]

Moved to DIY E-Liquid from General E-Liquid Discussion

 

[mhertz]

Yes, as VG has a much higher boiling point than water, then a vg/water mixture will have a lower boiling point, making the evaporation become more effecient i.e. boil harder than before and can produce more vapor. It will also in a tank much improve wicking and can avoid dry burns. It also to me and others, improve the flavor, or open up the flavor rather, even with unflavored.

 

[N2Vapor]

Adding water will thin juice and reduce clouds run hoter on everything causing expansion from heat then the leaking starts then frustration
Well it happen to me so then i took my juice and boiled it in microwave wow how fast it boils and wow its hot but does evaporate off the water impurities let it cool ipen lid or steep it for days due to diluting vg evaporate
Off .
------

 

[Mad Scientist]

About 5% water will thin juice and improve wicking with little to no reduction in vapor production. I found, however, I don't like the taste. YMMV.

I don't know if it effects nic uptake. Doesn't seem to.

 

[mhertz]

Btw, I remember previously reading from kurt, that if e.g. mixing 10% water into vg, it will reduce the boiling point from 290C into 140C. Over time, then the water will evaporate off faster than the vg though, but that's the same with pg added to vg, and volatile flavor compounds.

 

[N2Vapor]

True, differant equiptment acts differant, when i did water it thined out the juice ,also tried everclear to thin and clean my coil,but for me it thins it out the flow and then got burn taste thinner burns of quicker i stoped thinning ,there are alot of differant
Things that can effect performance
But if they start making better equiptment better stuff cheaper. value and pricing seams to be on take advantage of the smoker ,for me
I smoke cigars which is alot cheaper
Then vaping by 10 times and 10 times less hassle ,

 

[mhertz]

About vapor production and water, then you would think that it reduces the vapor, which it also does at a point, but i'm guessing that the lesser concentration of vg in the mixture is over-countered by the hightended evaporation performance of the reduced boiling point. I'm not completelly sure though It boils harder obviously, which should produce more vapor, but if the density of the vapor is the same i dunno. That's not why I use water personally... Some also state added throat-hit, and i'm guessing they again refer to this hightened evaporation, but again, i dunno

 

[Mad Scientist]

About vapor production and water, then you would think that it reduces the vapor, which it also does at a point, but i'm guessing that the lesser concentration of vg in the mixture is over-countered by the hightended evaporation performance of the reduced boiling point. I'm not completelly sure though It boils harder obviously, which should produce more vapor, but if the density of the vapor is the same i dunno. That's not why I use water personally... Some also state added throat-hit, and i'm guessing they again refer to this hightened evaporation, but again, i dunno

I think it slightly reduces the persistence of the vapor. Like the vapor off a cup of coffee, it doesn't stay around as long so it can look like less with excessive water percentages. You can use way less % of water than PG to get the same viscosity and wicking performance so that characteristic makes up for the slightly reduced vapor. I also like the crackle of the juice with water in it. I just can't get by the difference in taste though. It's like the difference between flavored seltzer instead of soda -- something is just missing.

 

[Kurt]

Good discussion. A VG-water solution is what we in chemistry call a miscible binary mixture (a solution of two things, mixing homogeneously). Phase diagrams are available for PG, VG and solutions with water.

Suppose we boil a 90:10 VG:water mixture. The vapor (gas and aerosol...what we actually see and call "vapor) content will be 90:10 water:VG. So yes, water boils out of a VG/water liquid faster than the VG does. This can be an issue in tank style RBAs, with remaining liquid in the tank becoming more and more thick over time. More volatile flavor compounds will also tend to boil out faster than less volatile flavor compounds. And I've found this with my Kayfun: over time the liquid becomes thicker, and may not wick as well as initially, and the flavor tends to fall off with time.

Preliminary results are showing that PG may be more unstable to thermal decomposition than VG, producing more aldehydes (the dry puff effect). So besides my general aversion to PG, and its drying effects on my mouth, for this reason I vastly prefer VG/water to VG with PG for thinning. I think this decomposition issue is something that will become very important in the future, especially with the more prevalent subohm vaping and very high wattages.

 

[kkiet]

It will reduce your juice flavor

 

[zoiDman]

It will reduce your juice flavor

Just my Own experience.

I find that adding a Small amount of Water to my DIY Recipes makes the Flavor More Enjoyable.

It tends to take the Chemical "Edge" off many Flavors. And many Flavors just Taste Better when Water in Small Amounts is in my Mix.

Of course though, YMMV.

 

[mhertz]

It will reduce your juice flavor

That is highly subjective and should rather be followed by a "IMHO"... Many feel the exact opposite...

 

[kkiet]

That is highly subjective and should rather be followed by a "IMHO"... Many feel the exact opposite...

IMHO

 

[mhertz]

LOL - Thanks mate

 

[Lyndagayle]

I don't like what water does to the smell and taste of nicotine. I first noticed when I use all of my nic from my glass storage jar, the smell of the nic is greatly enhanced when the water hits it for the rinsing. I also notice that the smell of nicotine is stronger in a VG base than in PG and I believe the water used to thin the VG is the culprit. I like for my nic base to be as odorless and tasteless as possible. Others don't seem to mind so my 2 cents is JMHO.

 

[Mowgli]

Good discussion. A VG-water solution is what we in chemistry call a miscible binary mixture (a solution of two things, mixing homogeneously). Phase diagrams are available for PG, VG and solutions with water.

Suppose we boil a 90:10 VG:water mixture. The vapor (gas and aerosol...what we actually see and call "vapor) content will be 90:10 water:VG. So yes, water boils out of a VG/water liquid faster than the VG does. This can be an issue in tank style RBAs, with remaining liquid in the tank becoming more and more thick over time. More volatile flavor compounds will also tend to boil out faster than less volatile flavor compounds. And I've found this with my Kayfun: over time the liquid becomes thicker, and may not wick as well as initially, and the flavor tends to fall off with time.

Preliminary results are showing that PG may be more unstable to thermal decomposition than VG, producing more aldehydes (the dry puff effect). So besides my general aversion to PG, and its drying effects on my mouth, for this reason I vastly prefer VG/water to VG with PG for thinning. I think this decomposition issue is something that will become very important in the future, especially with the more prevalent subohm vaping and very high wattages.

@Kurt - I usually use 30PG/70VG in my tanks.
I need to vape PG-free unflavored for 2 weeks but have never mixed with water before.
What %DW should I mix with my VG to get a wickable viscosity similar to 30PG?
Thanks

 

[Dixie1954]

Well it sure is a good thing I do NOT do subohm and high wattage because I only tolerate 30% or less VG. It almost makes me nauseous. Thank you Kurt for making what I choose to vape and vape with make more sense for me. Oh and to be PC - YMMV and IMHO